How would YOU prove......

[DaveW]

OK folks, there has over time been discussions about what it means to be an Independent Baptist.

My question is: how would YOU prove you are an Independent Baptist as distinct from other independent churches or other "Baptist" groups?

Many people are independent, many people are baptist, but what proof would you give that you are actually an "independent baptist"?

Mods: if you think this could be inflammatory, then please deal with it is you see fit.

 

[heartstrings]

You know; more and more I'm thinking of calling myself a "foundational" Baptist because those are both King James Bible words. Psalm 11:3

[weary warrior]

I don't guess I actually would try and prove it, to be honest. It's how I would mostly identify myself denominationally, but it's not important enough to me to care if someone else does or does not not identify me as I identify myself. There are too many definitions for "Baptist" these days anyhow, so when I say toe-may-toe, they probably hear toe-maah-toe regardless. Or beans. They may just hear beans. It's hard to tell sometimes. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by weary warrior

[DaveW]

1 minute ago, weary warrior said:

I don't guess I actually would try and prove it, to be honest. It's how I would mostly identify myself denominationally, but it's not important enough to me to care if someone else does or not identifies me as I identify myself. There are too many definitions for "Baptist" these days anyhow, so when I say toe-may-toe, they probably hear toe-maah-toe regardless. Or beans. They may just hear beans. It's hard to tell sometimes.

But this exactly the reason for the question - there are so many "definitions" around today and it is because all sorts of people identify themselves as such without knowing why.

If Independent Baptist doesn't mean anything anymore then it is meaningless..........

So, how do YOU prove that you are, as distinct from say independent community church?

[Genevanpreacher]

Well, I was brought up Baptist, saved at an Independent Baptist church, under an Independent Baptist Pastors preaching, attending an Independent Baptist church for 30 years, and actually use my noodle and read the word of God as it is written, and live by my own independent convictions and don't balance those convictions on any other persons opinions. Just because you can't find my convictions in a 'mainline popular'  book, means nothing to me.

[John Young]

My Faith in Christ alone makes me independent. My Baptism makes me Baptist. My study, assimilation, and practice of the Bible makes me fundamental. My voluntary submition to like minded believers in an assembly of those who are carrying out Christ's Great commission makes me local church.

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

 

[No Nicolaitans]

Hmmm...I don't know that I could prove it. Perhaps for me, the proof is in what can't be proven? After all...unlike other "denominations",

1. My "Denominational Headquarters" can't be physically visited by anyone; however, I'll gladly give someone the directions of how to get there.
2. I also can't physically take anyone to meet my "denomination's" President, C.E.O, and C.O.O. However, I'll gladly introduce someone to them through the means that they have provided.
3. If a person wants to see my "denomination's" Creed, I'll gladly show them; however, it might take them awhile to read all of it, because it's a book and covers A LOT of information. After all, though it's one book, it consists of 66 separate books and those books are further broken down into 1,189 chapters. I suspect that most people would lose interest after reading it for awhile. They may not like it either, because it uses all of those old-fashioned and archaic words that people seem to have so much trouble with today. Unfortunately, that's the only "Creed" that I accept...so please don't expect me to offer you an easier-to-read version of our "Creed". I could give the fundamentals that our "denomination" abides by, but it's based on our Creed...so...
4. My "denomination" only has two officers below our President, C.E.O., and C.O.O.; which are, pastor and deacon. A person could visit them...so that's feasible.
5. My "denomination" only consists of our President, C.E.O, C.O.O. (as noted above), the pastor and deacons (as noted above), and the members of our local church. Membership in my "denomination" is granted upon a person's salvation testimony and baptism. Everything is handled "in-house" in my "denomination", so if someone experienced a problem or had a need, and if our "in-house" system wasn't adequate for them to file their complaint or need, they would have to take it up with the President, C.E.O., and C.O.O. However, please see article #2.
6. My "denomination" only offers baptism to those who have given testimony of salvation. So, though it's very sweet and moving, we unfortunately won't baptize an infant. We only baptize by full immersion too, and I don't think many people would appreciate our dunking their infant under water.
7. My "denomination" only offers the Lord's Supper to the members in our "denomination" (please see article #5).
8. My "denomination" doesn't restrict members from their ability to act as a priest. All members are fully capable and encouraged to approach God personally, pray to him, and worship him personally in spirit and in truth. Our sole mediator is the C.E.O of our "denomination"...the Lord Jesus Christ.

I could go on a bit longer, but I think I've said enough.

[DaveW]

18 hours ago, John Young said:

My Faith in Christ alone makes me independent. My Baptism makes me Baptist. My study, assimilation, and practice of the Bible makes me fundamental. My voluntary submition to like minded believers in an assembly of those who are carrying out Christ's Great commission makes me local church.

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

 

I gotta say John that this is interesting......

Your Faith in Christ alone makes you saved, not independent.

You Baptism joined you to a baptist church, but doesn't necessarily make you a baptist.

Your third point is basically fine.

Your last point is ok but incomplete.

Please note that I am NOT saying you  are not an independent baptist.

Plently of people trust Christ alone for salvation but remain a part of a non-independent "church". 

Plently of people join independent baptist churches for lots of reasons without ever really accepting IB standard doctrines.

And the salvation Army started out never trying to be a church but nonetheless fitting your final point exactly.

I do however appreciate your trying to tie down the attributes of an independent baptist, and your recognition of these points in particular.

Independent, salvation by faith in Christ alone, Bible as sole authority, local church.

These things are widely recognised as Independent Baptist attributes,  but even these are not unique to IB.

There is yet more that differentiates IB from other "churches"

[John Young]

18 hours ago, John Young said:

My Faith in Christ alone makes me independent. My Baptism makes me Baptist. My study, assimilation, and practice of the Bible makes me fundamental. My voluntary submition to like minded believers in an assembly of those who are carrying out Christ's Great commission makes me local church.

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

 

 

3 minutes ago, DaveW said:

I gotta say John that this is interesting......

Your Faith in Christ alone makes you saved, not independent.

You Baptism joined you to a baptist church, but doesn't necessarily make you a baptist.

Your third point is basically fine.

Your last point is ok but incomplete.

Please note that I am NOT saying you  are not an independent baptist.

Plently of people trust Christ alone for salvation but remain a part of a non-independent "church". 

Plently of people join independent baptist churches for lots of reasons without ever really accepting IB standard doctrines.

And the salvation Army started out never trying to be a church but nonetheless fitting your final point exactly.

I do however appreciate your trying to tie down the attributes of an independent baptist, and your recognition of these points in particular.

Independent, salvation by faith in Christ alone, Bible as sole authority, local church.

These things are widely recognised as Independent Baptist attributes,  but even these are not unique to IB.

There is yet more that differentiates IB from other "churches"

This is why context of my statement matters. The things I listed are the main reasons I am in the context of choosing to be part of a local church which holds to the convictions of being Independent, Fundamental, and Baptist. When I say that I am these things it is not as part of a "denomination" that happens to have these words in their title but rather, I identify with churches that identify themselves with these attributes derived from their faith.

My Faith in Christ alone does dictate that I be Independent. Obviously the primary and first reason of faith in Christ alone is for my salvation but it also produces more attributes in practicing my faith as well. Such as being loyal to God's Word alone and being Independent of any other authorities over my faith.

My baptism does make me a Baptist. Baptism is the visual declaration of what Christ has done for me and of my commitment to leave my old life and follow Him in faith alone in His new life and with others in His body. Each false church practices false baptism in their unique and particular way and shows that person's faith system. My believer's Baptism by immersion shows my faith, it's source, and my commitment. Its a baptism unique to the bible and to Baptist churches. Even history shows "Baptist" were called as such, not because of some unified teachings on all subjects or some group/denominational affiliation, but because of their, unique biblical mode of Baptism.

The thing is that many treat Independent Baptist Churches as if they were a type of denomination when in reality they are not. Baptist are all local independent churches that practice biblical baptism. Simple as that. Their biblicality creates any other shared attributes they may have beyond their biblical baptism but shared attributes does not make a church or person Baptist.

[DaveW]

But there are local independent churches that practice biblical baptism but are not baptist - what makes you different to them?

[John Young]

11 minutes ago, DaveW said:

But there are local independent churches that practice biblical baptism but are not baptist - what makes you different to them?

If they practice biblical baptism then I would say that they are as much independent baptist as I and my church are. Except perhaps that we chose to have baptist in our name and they do not.

Edited January 6, 2017 by John Young

[DaveW]

So everything except biblical baptism is negotiable?

 

[John Young]

25 minutes ago, DaveW said:

So everything except biblical baptism is negotiable?

To simply be a Baptist church. Yes. But I would not fellowship with just any Baptist church.

Additionally, there is a LOT that goes into a biblical baptism then just dunking someone into water. Proper baptism will show that the believer and that church is in line biblicaly with Christ and His Word, and His practices, and it will show what they are against as well.

[DaveW]

1 hour ago, John Young said:

To simply be a Baptist church. Yes. But I would not fellowship with just any Baptist church.

Additionally, there is a LOT that goes into a biblical baptism then just dunking someone into water. Proper baptism will show that the believer and that church is in line biblicaly with Christ and His Word, and His practices, and it will show what they are against as well.

And this is what I am trying to establish. 

You just said there is more to being a biblical independent baptist church - these other bits are what I am talking about.

What is it exactly that makes that difference?

[John Young]

1 hour ago, DaveW said:

And this is what I am trying to establish. 

You just said there is more to being a biblical independent baptist church - these other bits are what I am talking about.

What is it exactly that makes that difference?

As I said before its not a denomination but a description. It describes the faith type of church and type of christian to which I associate with. The attributes have to be taken individually in order to have the proper meaning. To be baptist you have to have a baptist baptism. To be an independent church your church has to be independent. To be Fundamental you have to hold to the fundamentals of the faith. "IFB" is not a denomination but rather a statement of identification to show people that particular church is Independent in practice, Fundamental in faith, Baptist in baptismal doctrine. To hold it to any other standard would cause it to lose its meaning.

While many "IB" churches have many similarities (and some a common history) they also have many differences and not all are fundamental either. For example, even some "IFB" churches I would not associate with either because the have substantial differences in doctrine then I do. Some hold to landmarkisim, Calvinistic or Arminian theology, Post-trib, mandatory tithing, fellowships, mission boards, Bible collages, Independent ministries, etc. while others may not. That does not mean they or I are not IFB to the core but just that we are different churches.

Additionally, in history, the "Independent Baptist Movement" had it's start when many churches left the Baptist Union and then later the SBC in mass because the convention started to take on a denominational role. So Baptist who self identified as "independent Baptist" did so in order to show they were not part Baptist denomination, convention or any another outside influence. Essentially going back to what they were before joining a group of churches.

Edited January 6, 2017 by John Young