Why are Christians voting for Donald Trump?

[Old-Pilgrim]

I don’t think angels have free will just as snow or wind have no free will, I think also the lost or Christians who are walking in the flesh have no free will, or at leas free within a very narrow parameter, they all are compelled by a force greater than themselves to act , whether it be the power of sin ‘for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.’ or the power of Gods word, sort of Gods right hand or his left hand (I know the Scripture doesn’t mention God having a left hand, but by deduction if we are in his image and men of the world are his hand, and Christ is at his right Hand, then  men of the world would most likely be his left hand.

Ps 148:8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfiling his word:

Ps 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

Ps 17:13-14 …deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:  From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life…’

Re 17:17 Re 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, .…For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Only Adam and a born again person while walking in the Spirit will have free will, all else is driven by wind,

 

[Old-Pilgrim]

10 hours ago, heartstrings said:

Not always brother. Some will use insults,  intimidation and twist the Bible to control and would-be dissenters are threatened in one form or another. Under those circumstances, one could bring a false doctrine into your church and there would ne nothing you could do about it but leave. It works just like a political dictatorship.. "wolves" work in packs, and the pack obeys the alpha wolf

 

 

Yes, I suppose you are describing a church which is on its last legs or has been fully taken over by wolves, it is difficult to leave when there are still some Christians in the pews, but I guess you need to trust that the Lord will guide them.

[wretched]

3 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

I don’t think angels have free will just as snow or wind have no free will, I think also the lost or Christians who are walking in the flesh have no free will, or at leas free within a very narrow parameter, they all are compelled by a force greater than themselves to act , whether it be the power of sin ‘for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.’ or the power of Gods word, sort of Gods right hand or his left hand (I know the Scripture doesn’t mention God having a left hand, but by deduction if we are in his image and men of the world are his hand, and Christ is at his right Hand, then  men of the world would most likely be his left hand.

Ps 148:8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfiling his word:

Ps 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

Ps 17:13-14 …deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:  From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life…’

Re 17:17 Re 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, .…For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Only Adam and a born again person while walking in the Spirit will have free will, all else is driven by wind,

 

Yikes friend,

This is where "unorthodox" crosses the line into heretical.

You have yet to quote any Scripture in any of these posts that remotely relate to the subject discussed. With the slight exception of the Rev quote you make which is at least in the ballpark (although you totally ignore the context of people, place and time it refers to).

If you insist these passages mean in context what you are thinking they mean than there will be no reasoning with you and I won't even try.

[No Nicolaitans]

On Saturday, March 19, 2016 at 8:48 PM, wretched said:

That is odd, I heard one that believed the angels were bowling in Heaven whenever there is a thunderstorm.

They must both be right....Right??

 

What? I must've been sold a bill of goods! I was told that thunder was from the devil beating his wife.

[HappyChristian]

Presenting rumor - even in a disguised "polite" way - is mudslinging. Presenting truth is not.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

It is stories like this that make me hope Trump does win the Presidency and does build the wall he promises to build.  

1 hour ago, No Nicolaitans said:

What? I must've been sold a bill of goods! I was told that thunder was from the devil beating his wife.

Mother used to tell us it was God moving furniture in our mansions.  LoL

[swathdiver]

Trump is a broken down, depraved sinner like the rest of us.  Wouldn't it be cool if he got saved and read the bible to America like Roosevelt's fireside chats?

To slow America's descent into complete depravity, she needs a man like Patton who can bulldoze his way past the enemy and onto the next objective.  President Bush always tried to be considerate towards the Democrats and they knocked the olive branch out of his hand over and over again.  What he needed to do was to destroy them.  Cruz could do it but he's got to be a lot tougher than I've seen him be.  He's got to stop apologizing or criticizing Trump's tough guy stance, when Cruz must be just as tough towards our enemy in order to win.  These people we're in a spiritual battle with are killers, so depraved they think nothing of shooting unarmed civilians, shooting people's pets, taking away your God-given rights and murdering unborn children in the womb.  The Muhammadens are not America's greatest threat to freedom, the Democrat Party is.

If Trump wins will you pray for the man and support him when his objectives are God-honoring?  How many of you prayed for President Obama, not for him to lose an election, but for him to get saved?  I reckon that man, who's been surrounded by real live Communists his whole life, has never heard the Good News according to the Scriptures.  Is he worth saving?  I reckon so.

[John81]

3 hours ago, swathdiver said:

Trump is a broken down, depraved sinner like the rest of us.  Wouldn't it be cool if he got saved and read the bible to America like Roosevelt's fireside chats?

To slow America's descent into complete depravity, she needs a man like Patton who can bulldoze his way past the enemy and onto the next objective.  President Bush always tried to be considerate towards the Democrats and they knocked the olive branch out of his hand over and over again.  What he needed to do was to destroy them.  Cruz could do it but he's got to be a lot tougher than I've seen him be.  He's got to stop apologizing or criticizing Trump's tough guy stance, when Cruz must be just as tough towards our enemy in order to win.  These people we're in a spiritual battle with are killers, so depraved they think nothing of shooting unarmed civilians, shooting people's pets, taking away your God-given rights and murdering unborn children in the womb.  The Muhammadens are not America's greatest threat to freedom, the Democrat Party is.

If Trump wins will you pray for the man and support him when his objectives are God-honoring?  How many of you prayed for President Obama, not for him to lose an election, but for him to get saved?  I reckon that man, who's been surrounded by real live Communists his whole life, has never heard the Good News according to the Scriptures.  Is he worth saving?  I reckon so.

Whoever the president is I will pray for them and support that which they do that's good for America.

The best thing I see recommending Trump is the anti-America establishment on every side is against him.

[Ronda]

16 hours ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

 

Only Adam and a born again person while walking in the Spirit will have free will, all else is driven by wind,

 

No free will you say? Free will is (in part) the ability to make a choice. God gave plenty of choices for people (after Adam and before Christ's perfect work on the cross) in the OT. They had a CHOICE (of their own individual free will) to make.
In Joshua, He was telling them they can either CHOOSE to serve the Lord or CHOOSE to serve false "gods".
In Deuteronomy He gave them a choice between life and death, blessings or curses, and the end result would be because of the CHOICE they made.
In Proverbs, He let's them know that they had a CHOICE either to fear God or not!

All throughout the OT there are free will CHOICES... and each choice had consequences. 

Joshua 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve..."

Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live"

Proverbs 1:29 "For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord"

Proverbs 3:31 "Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways."

Isaiah 56:4, Isaiah 65:12, the verses above,  and many other verses let us know that God DID give them free will choices!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now in reference to your statement "only a born again believer" has free will???

Matthew 10:32-33 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven"
*There are plenty of "whossoever will" verses throughout the NT.

Revelation 22:17 "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

John 3:16-18
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

EVERYONE (prior to believing and accepting Christ, and prior to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) has a choice to make. The biggest and MOST important choice and decision of their lives on earth.
To CHOICE to believe and accept Christ OR the CHOICE to disbelieve and reject Christ. 
That requires FREE WILL and mankind HAS free will. 

If you still want to say that: "Only Adam and a born again person while walking in the Spirit will have free will"????
then you have to throw out ALL of those Bible verses (and MANY others as well).
BUT the CHOICE is yours because God gave YOU free will also.

 

[Old-Pilgrim]

18 hours ago, wretched said:

Yikes friend,

This is where "unorthodox" crosses the line into heretical.

You have yet to quote any Scripture in any of these posts that remotely relate to the subject discussed. With the slight exception of the Rev quote you make which is at least in the ballpark (although you totally ignore the context of people, place and time it refers to).

If you insist these passages mean in context what you are thinking they mean than there will be no reasoning with you and I won't even try.

I knew I was complicating the matter by bringing mankind into the equation, so. Let me rephrase this.

I don’t think angels have free will just as snow or wind have no free will, they might have scope to make certain choices, but essentially they are servants, created to be servants, or ‘ministering Spirits.

I believe Man was peculiar and privileged in that God created him with free will.

Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Ps 148:8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfiling his word:

Ps 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

My question would be ‘if God Gave Angels free will also, what happens if the other two thirds of the angels fall, and fail at Armageddon?

To reckon that the third of the Angels were under Mans dominion and so fell as he fell,  seem to me to be a likely scenario, and leaves less questions in my mind than a scenario where the angels have free will and so would be as unreliable to God as man is. I think man lost his crown, as it were, to the serpent.  I don’t think an angel would have the ability to rebel under its own volition., but in some sort of joint effort the serpent along with the man and woman all fell together. (I don't mean anything to do with physical union)

However I can’t prove this but unless I see something in Scripture which proves otherwise, this would be where I stand.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On the subject of man and his free will, I do believe man has much freedom to do and to will, but he is also hemmed in by principles of the Law of God and the principles of the power of sin, I believe this is why God can use the wicked to execute His Justice at times.

Isa 10:5-8 'O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. For he saith....'

These men are caught in the torrent of their own passions, The LORD by his wisdom power and foresight can steer their sinful pride in ways which fulfill Gods own will. I do believe there are times and seasons, when wickedness increases in a land and the people will be either hot or cold (or society will be polarized) then many hearts are hardened and like pharaoh a hard hearted man would find it difficult to repent of his ways, this then would become the rod of God’s indignation. (The LORD could see if any man is going to repent)

I don’t believe like TULIP, although I did for about twenty odd years, but neither do I believe it is just a case of saying that any lost man can simply choose to believe or not believe. I could not believe when I was a youth, there was no way I could comprehend the existence of God. In my twenties, God opened my eyes and it came to pass that now I could not choose not to believe. I can still choose on many many points, although there is still the power of sin which works in my flesh, so I have free will but not all power, thus I am instructed to put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit, etc.

I believe before in my youth I was blind, and probably was born blind. For example
Mt 13:10-15 & Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

I believe it is upto each individual to respond to the promptings of the Spirit of God and order his heart right, or humble himself so that God might grant him sight. Ps 50:23 Joh 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

 

 

[wretched]

9 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

I knew I was complicating the matter by bringing mankind into the equation, so. Let me rephrase this.

I don’t think angels have free will just as snow or wind have no free will, they might have scope to make certain choices, but essentially they are servants, created to be servants, or ‘ministering Spirits.

I believe Man was peculiar and privileged in that God created him with free will.

Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Ps 148:8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfiling his word:

Ps 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

My question would be ‘if God Gave Angels free will also, what happens if the other two thirds of the angels fall, and fail at Armageddon?

To reckon that the third of the Angels were under Mans dominion and so fell as he fell,  seem to me to be a likely scenario, and leaves less questions in my mind than a scenario where the angels have free will and so would be as unreliable to God as man is. I think man lost his crown, as it were, to the serpent.  I don’t think an angel would have the ability to rebel under its own volition., but in some sort of joint effort the serpent along with the man and woman all fell together. (I don't mean anything to do with physical union)

However I can’t prove this but unless I see something in Scripture which proves otherwise, this would be where I stand.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On the subject of man and his free will, I do believe man has much freedom to do and to will, but he is also hemmed in by principles of the Law of God and the principles of the power of sin, I believe this is why God can use the wicked to execute His Justice at times.

Isa 10:5-8 'O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. For he saith....'

These men are caught in the torrent of their own passions, The LORD by his wisdom power and foresight can steer their sinful pride in ways which fulfill Gods own will. I do believe there are times and seasons, when wickedness increases in a land and the people will be either hot or cold (or society will be polarized) then many hearts are hardened and like pharaoh a hard hearted man would find it difficult to repent of his ways, this then would become the rod of God’s indignation. (The LORD could see if any man is going to repent)

I don’t believe like TULIP, although I did for about twenty odd years, but neither do I believe it is just a case of saying that any lost man can simply choose to believe or not believe. I could not believe when I was a youth, there was no way I could comprehend the existence of God. In my twenties, God opened my eyes and it came to pass that now I could not choose not to believe. I can still choose on many many points, although there is still the power of sin which works in my flesh, so I have free will but not all power, thus I am instructed to put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit, etc.

I believe before in my youth I was blind, and probably was born blind. For example
Mt 13:10-15 & Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

I believe it is upto each individual to respond to the promptings of the Spirit of God and order his heart right, or humble himself so that God might grant him sight. Ps 50:23 Joh 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

 

 

I figured as much about you friend.

Your theology will remain false as long as you confuse God's knowledge of all things with His controlling of all things like some puppetmaster.

Thinking He controls all actions, reactions and inactions is the biggest cop out satan ever invented to deceive the weak minded.

 

 

[Old-Pilgrim]

22 minutes ago, wretched said:

I figured as much about you friend.

Your theology will remain false as long as you confuse God's knowledge of all things with His controlling of all things like some puppetmaster.

Thinking He controls all actions, reactions and inactions is the biggest cop out satan ever invented to deceive the weak minded.

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, wretched said:

I figured as much about you friend.

Your theology will remain false as long as you confuse God's knowledge of all things with His controlling of all things like some puppetmaster.

Thinking He controls all actions, reactions and inactions is the biggest cop out satan ever invented to deceive the weak minded.

 

 

Wretched

You maybe missed some of what I said.. 'I don’t believe like TULIP' that was to abbreviate. You may also have missed some of what the Bible said.

I do not confuse God's knowledge of all things with His controlling of all things like some puppetmaster. But if you must have noticed that he does control some things.

I don't think he ''He controls all actions, reactions and inactions'' I don't know where you got that impression from the post which you just quoted.

[wretched]

6 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

 

Wretched

You maybe missed some of what I said.. 'I don’t believe like TULIP' that was to abbreviate. You may also have missed some of what the Bible said.

I do not confuse God's knowledge of all things with His controlling of all things like some puppetmaster. But if you must have noticed that he does control some things.

I don't think he ''He controls all actions, reactions and inactions'' I don't know where you got that impression from the post which you just quoted.

Oh dear, I apologize.

Could you for clarity explain exactly what He does control then?

 

[Old-Pilgrim]

5 minutes ago, wretched said:

Oh dear, I apologize.

Could you for clarity explain exactly what He does control then?

 

No problem.

Bellow is a good example which also has some explanation as to the details more that other similar verses.

The LORD said 'I will send him' So the LORD is sending the Assyrian against Israel who is going to 'tread them down like the mire of the streets' (serious stuff)

We are also helpfully told here regarding the Assyrian 'Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so'

So The LORD used the Assyrian as a rod to chastise Israel, Did He make them evil? no He just pointed them in the direction in which He wanted them to go. I think this is a good example of the principle of 'all things work[ing] together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.Ro 8:28

Isa 10:5-8 'O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. For he saith....'

 

[Old-Pilgrim]

5 hours ago, Ronda said:

No free will you say? Free will is (in part) the ability to make a choice. God gave plenty of choices for people (after Adam and before Christ's perfect work on the cross) in the OT. They had a CHOICE (of their own individual free will) to make.
In Joshua, He was telling them they can either CHOOSE to serve the Lord or CHOOSE to serve false "gods".
In Deuteronomy He gave them a choice between life and death, blessings or curses, and the end result would be because of the CHOICE they made.
In Proverbs, He let's them know that they had a CHOICE either to fear God or not!

All throughout the OT there are free will CHOICES... and each choice had consequences. 

Joshua 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve..."

Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live"

Proverbs 1:29 "For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord"

Proverbs 3:31 "Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways."

Isaiah 56:4, Isaiah 65:12, the verses above,  and many other verses let us know that God DID give them free will choices!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now in reference to your statement "only a born again believer" has free will???

Matthew 10:32-33 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven"
*There are plenty of "whossoever will" verses throughout the NT.

Revelation 22:17 "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

John 3:16-18
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

EVERYONE (prior to believing and accepting Christ, and prior to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) has a choice to make. The biggest and MOST important choice and decision of their lives on earth.
To CHOICE to believe and accept Christ OR the CHOICE to disbelieve and reject Christ. 
That requires FREE WILL and mankind HAS free will. 

If you still want to say that: "Only Adam and a born again person while walking in the Spirit will have free will"????
then you have to throw out ALL of those Bible verses (and MANY others as well).
BUT the CHOICE is yours because God gave YOU free will also.

 

Hello Ronda I have tried to clarify my position a little in my replies to Wretched, just above this post. I

do believe that the power to act on our free will can be curtailed at times I believe Paul was a Christian and was talking about his post conversion experience when he wrote '

Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Ro 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Ro 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Ro 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Ro 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

And the most concise explanation for the state which he found himself in, I believe is found (funnily enough) in the earlier part of the same chapter.

Ro 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Ro 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband [Moses - Law] is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Ro 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, [Christ - the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus] she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

So Paul was a Christian but was trying to walk like a Jew and so fell from grace for a time, as taught in Galatians.

And I believe that this case of a Christian who is walking in the flesh could possibly find himself being like the Assyrians of old and be getting used as a vessel of chastisement, not willingly just like the Assyrian, but never the less fulfilling some part of Gods purpose, not the ministering of Grace which he is called to, but to some lesser purpose. Like for example if a Christian falls from grace and starts committing some gross sin, this could be used by God to test the elders and give them opportunity for growth. So even something like this could work for the good.