Salvation Confusion

[Alimantado]

Repent means - to change (mind). So yes it is true, every person that has ever been saved has repented of something....YOU HAVE TO. Why? Because we can't believe on Jesus if we believe in Muhammad. We can't believe on Jesus if we are trusting in our own works. We can't trust in Jesus if we don't believe in God. We must repent of all of those things to be saved. BUT...it doesn't mean all sin....or even have a change of mind toward all sin like you said. I truly believe OB means this (your quote) desiring to stop sinning, desiring to follow God instead of a life of sin. I don't believe this is correct either. 

I don't believe we have to repent of "all sin". I think when the average person gets saved there are a multitude of sinful acts they get remission for that they don't even recognise as sinful acts--some perhaps which they may not recognise as sin before they die. In fact, it's implicit in the idea of having faith in a redeemer that we can rely on that redeemer to wash us of our sins even if we fail to recognise all that is sin. So in that bit you quoted, I certainly wasn't saying that desiring to stop sinning meant a capacity to identify every specific sinful act that one has ever committed and consciously reject each and every one. What I meant by "desiring to follow God instead of a life of sin" was that a person recognises that there is such a thing a sin--as doing things that violate God's will--and they know they want to do God's will rather than violate it, i.e. they wish to follow God. When they put their faith in God's grace and Jesus' work on the cross to pay for their sins, they do so because they want to follow Christ, not just because they want to get away with it (although I'm not sure we can deny an element of self-interest).

What must we do to be saved? Beleive on the lord Jesus Christ. I honestly believe almost all of the people on OB believe this, but we aren't doing that justice by telling people we must also repent of sin. It leads to confusion mostly because of confusion about what the word means. When we believe on Christ we repent (change our mind) about what salvation is (faith). We don't have to have a complete change of mind toward sin. When we grow in the lord and realize that we aren't in bondage to sin because we are saved eternally by what Jesus did for us....that is what leads us to lead a more pleasing life to God. Our faith grows in our walk with Jesus through hearing and reading the word.

Let's say I become convinced that Jesus is God, that he died on the cross and rose again, paying for our sins in so doing, and that we can be saved by believing on this work. Let's say I respond by saying: "What an idiot! I really hate God and I want to do whatever I can to grieve him. But I also want to get away with it and I've become convinced that Jesus is Lord, which means I might not get away with it. But I'm also convinced that Jesus has paid for my sins on the cross and that he offers forgiveness if I'll only accept it. Well, though I think he's an idiot for doing that, I'll take it thank you very much! That way I can carry on doing my favourite hobby--hating God--and there'll be no comeback. Bonus!"

In that scenario, I've "changed my mind" and come to believe that Jesus is God--is Lord--and that his work on the cross saves me from my sins. I'm also still totally against God and pro sin. Yet you say that bit doesn't matter, i.e. that the hypothetical "me" above would be saved.

[wretched]

Before anything happens to anyone, they must hear the Gospel clearly from the Word, the seed has to be planted. Without the Scriptures in their ears, the Spirit will not convict.

With the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is a Spirit induced change of heart that cannot be explained by mechanics alone. But when it does happen all things are new, the blinders lifted and they receive more and more truth as time goes by like a sponge (some faster than others). This Spirit generated change of heart does create a Spirit generated change in action as the new believer hears more and more milk from the Word.

Saints do succumb to sin repeatedly after salvation but they will never, ever turn to different gods or beliefs after salvation. That is what Hebrews 6 teaches quite clearly IMO.

Noone saved will turn to humanism, paganism, idolatry, islam, budda, the pope, etc...EVER. It is quite impossible so if you have someone in this situation, keep witnessing to them because they never got saved to begin with. They got sold a rabbit's foot prayer.

 

 

[MikeWatson1]

No one saved will EVER turn to another religion? 

Thats not supporting being saved without works. Dont confuse the root of salvation with the fruit of salvation or justification with sanctification.

I guess i was never saved seeing i tried new age beliefs 8 years after calling to jesus for salvation. 

[wretched]

No one saved will EVER turn to another religion? 

Thats not supporting being saved without works. Dont confuse the root of salvation with the fruit of salvation or justification with sanctification.

I guess i was never saved seeing i tried new age beliefs 8 years after calling to jesus for salvation. 

You are correct, you were not saved before you did that my friend, but a seed was planted. And this concept is certainly supported 100% by Scripture.

[MikeWatson1]

Well i am guessing you mean 'perseverance of the saints' 

My knowledge of this is that it doesn't really mean 'once saved always saved' but that those who have been chosen for eternal life WILL do good works, continue in holiness etc..

Well..  David didnt do that.  Sure, he returned to the faith, but he did grievous sins. Murder and adultery.

 

I reject calvinism on probably all points. perseverance of the saints should really be: preservation of the saved if it is going to mean 'once saved always saved' 

 

Aside from this, even if it wasnt salvation at 13 when i received it, I surely have believed now.

Scripturally tho: what of john 3:16, 5:24, 10:28 etc?  That's saved, done, dusted.  

[John81]

A saved person can commit any sin an unsaved person can commit. A saved person can backslide and get caught up in some false religion just the same as a lost person can get caught up in such. The difference is, for the saved person the Holy Ghost will be working from within to restore them, turning them from error back to truth.

It shouldn't be, but especially here in America this isn't all that uncommon.

[Invicta]

Many people in the fundamentalist easy believism camp who are followers of cult leaders Jack Hyles and Steve Anderson have an agenda and don't like to be told that the so called "Professions" they have had are false. The fact is, they have led millions to hell, and I have a right to be righteously angry about that.

I would say if the are easy believists they are not fundamentalists.

[Invicta]

A biblical definition of 'repent'

Genesis 6:5  And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 ¶  And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

 

 

[MikeWatson1]

Is it hard to believe in Jesus? 

Wasnt for the publican who 'smote his chest and said God have mercy on me a sinner'

He was convicted and responded by calling for mercy.

This is easy.

What is hard about it?

If the consequence of not believing till you die is hell, why would Jesus make it not easy to believe?

Yes there are false professions, but again dont confuse the root of believing, faith with the fruit of salvation  

[John81]

Following the biblical plan of salvation is indeed easy. Those who use the term "easy believism" are referring to the practice of presenting a watered down message and then prodding or pushing someone to repeat a "sinners prayer" and telling them that's all they have to do to be sure of heaven. In these cases there is typically no true, biblical understanding of sin, salvation, Christ or the biblical Gospel by those who repeat the "sinners prayer" (which is so often held forth more as a magic incantation than anything real).

Praise God true, biblical salvation is easy. That's something I try to point out to those who attack Christianity claiming God wouldn't make it so hard to get to Him as Christianity does. The fact is, God made it very easy, with one Way to be right with Him. The idea that multiple ways to God and each person must find the one that's right for them is somehow easier is ridiculous.

The Gospel is simple. Any difficulty is within us as we consider whether to follow the leading of the Spirit or our own flesh.

[wretched]

A saved person can commit any sin an unsaved person can commit. A saved person can backslide and get caught up in some false religion just the same as a lost person can get caught up in such. The difference is, for the saved person the Holy Ghost will be working from within to restore them, turning them from error back to truth.

It shouldn't be, but especially here in America this isn't all that uncommon.

 

Well the emerging church movement and rick warren types would certainly agree but this cannot be found in the Bible. The Bible describes it as quite impossible for a born again Christian to blaspheme the Spirit. What you are describing here would be crucifying to themselves the Son of God afresh, and putting Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6 is no mystery and very clear on this subject.

This kind of thinking is certainly in agreement with false professions though. Not trying to one up anyone but we need to get busy with witnessing to people who got "saved" without any knowledge of Hell, Judgement or Condemnation.

About the only 2 reasonable qualifiers we have to know who is a brother or sister in Christ is this and professing Him before men with Baptism. Why should we care you ask? So next time someone stops you while witnessing and says they are already born again, we will ask the right questions to make sure before we move on.

People like this are all over the place thanks to satan and his emerging church which he started as an answer to the fundamental movement years ago.

Just as he did with the catholic church in the 3rd century as an answer to the spread of the real Gospel by real Christians. It is a phony imitation of Bible Christianity.

Anyone who was saved 20-30 years ago used to know this stuff, we have just forgotten it. Oh and BTW: the reason we have forgotten is because we are lured away from the Word and into reading and considering every watered down idea by these charlatans.

We do these false professors no justice by assuring them they are saved simply because they said the repeat after me prayers. If there was no change then there was no regeneration of the Spirit. Read the parable of the sower for clues into this.

Edited October 4, 2015 by wretched

[John81]

A person can only blaspheme the Holy Spirit by refusing to be born again in Christ. A saved person cannot do that since they are already born again.

Scripture does not say there are certain sins a saved person can never commit. There are those who believe once saved a Christian can't commit sin. Some actually believe they are living in perfect holiness, others simply call "little sins" mistakes or some other trivial word rather than acknowledge their sins for what they are. This isn't biblical. What is biblical is saved people sin, as First John is very clear about.

Just because a person is saved doesn't mean they are immediately mature in the faith and can't be led astray, make mistakes or backslide into religious folly.

One thing that would greatly help prevent such would be if we (Christians) would actually disciple other Christians, befriend Christians, help Christians. Instead, even in many of the "better" churches, Christians tend to form cliques which they are reluctant to let others into or they have their "church friends" while at church and worldly friends the rest of the time.

This leaves us with many born again Christians weak in the faith, slow to mature, left in infancy, or even pushed away.

[wretched]

A person can only blaspheme the Holy Spirit by refusing to be born again in Christ. A saved person cannot do that since they are already born again.

Scripture does not say there are certain sins a saved person can never commit. There are those who believe once saved a Christian can't commit sin. Some actually believe they are living in perfect holiness, others simply call "little sins" mistakes or some other trivial word rather than acknowledge their sins for what they are. This isn't biblical. What is biblical is saved people sin, as First John is very clear about.

Just because a person is saved doesn't mean they are immediately mature in the faith and can't be led astray, make mistakes or backslide into religious folly.

One thing that would greatly help prevent such would be if we (Christians) would actually disciple other Christians, befriend Christians, help Christians. Instead, even in many of the "better" churches, Christians tend to form cliques which they are reluctant to let others into or they have their "church friends" while at church and worldly friends the rest of the time.

This leaves us with many born again Christians weak in the faith, slow to mature, left in infancy, or even pushed away.

Your first line answered the issue John?

So a person hears the Gospel, is supposedly convicted by the Holy Spirit, supposedly repents from any ideas of God they had before to supposedly trust in the Living, One True God.

Later on however, repents from the Living, One True God to trust some other false god....was truly BORN AGAIN while all this occurred?

Come on John, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (on either side)

Edited October 5, 2015 by wretched

[Alimantado]

Your first line answered the issue John?

So a person hears the Gospel, is supposedly convicted by the Holy Spirit, supposedly repents from any ideas of God they had before to supposedly trust in the Living, One True God.

Later on however, repents from the Living, One True God to trust some other false god....was truly BORN AGAIN while all this occurred?

Come on John, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (on either side)

What if the other false god is money, prestige, work pressures, technology, their family, their self? Are you saying that it's impossible for a saved Christian to commit the sin of idolatry?

[John81]

It's not uncommon for a saved person to find themselves in very difficult times and believe God has abandoned them, or to think perhaps more is needed, and to turn to strange things to find help. That may take the form of making money their idol, astrology, horoscopes, or even thinking maybe "they" are right and all/some/most gods are one and the same and get caught up looking for a way to draw on God by pursuing some false religion ideas.

Those I've had personal experience with are always restored to a right walk with God. Their testimonies are always very similar; of having felt very confused during that time, unfocused, having felt conviction but either not recognizing it at the time or thinking it just their own worries. Yet at some point the indwelling Spirit gets through to them, they come to see the great error of their ways, they repent and restored and typically have a great hunger for the things of God and the Lord graciously has someone in or come into their lives at that point who will disciple them and set their feet firmly on the path of righteousness.

Meanwhile, the unsaved who get caught up in those things, including those who "tried" Christianity, tend to either remain caught up in those things or dive in further.

The idea a saved person can't get caught up in some false church, try some false ways, latch onto something ungodly, or such things is no different than those who claim a saved person can't commit suicide, get drunk, do drugs, carry on an affair, get divorced, or commit other sins that some claim no saved person can commit.

Every saved person matures at a different pace, a different rate than others. Some are well discipled, some are not discipled at all. Some get into the Word themselves and begin to grow, some find confusion trying that. Some are freed from some sins while others are not instantly freed from the same sins. Some get caught up in "big" sins, others never commit another "big" sin.

Being born again in Christ doesn't make anyone perfect or incapable of falling into sin, even the sin of thinking some false religion may have something right.

We should be thankful our God doesn't leave us or forsake us but rather works in our lives to free us from sinful bondage and set us aright with Him.