After the Tribulation

[Alan]

matthew24,

I would still like for you to answer the questions about Scofield. In the video it openly called C.I. Scofield and apsotate. Do you think that C.I. Scofield was an apostate? If so, why?

John81,

I will try and be better in my approach and presentation.

Alan

[Jim_Alaska]

I may be wrong Alan, but if I were you I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for and answer.

[Alan]

I may be wrong Alan, but if I were you I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for and answer.

Jim,

Wouldn't surprise me a bit if I never received a clear response; or even a response. Sad though. It really pains my heart what is happening in the fundamentalist movement.

All of the great men of God, Holy Spirit filled, great soul-winners, that left the modernistic churches in the early part of the 1920's-1950's and were mightily used of God, almost to the man, were pre-tribulation rapture. Now, Pastor Anderson, and his followers, besides calling Scofield apostate, are calling men who  believed the pre-tribulation rapture: men like J. Frank Norris, Oliver B. Greene, G. B. Vick,  Pastor Dowell, Pastor Robertson, Lehman Strauss, and other mighly men of God, apostates and the other slanderous names that I heard on Pastor Andersons lecture video.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Alan
addition

[Matthew24]

Wow,

I feel the love. lol. I feel like Daniel in the lions den. I listen to Anderson quite a bit and I feel like for the most part people hear bits of his sermons and are quick to paint him as anti-Semitic, hateful, and like to compare him to Fred Phelps. He doesn't think pretrib is even close to the most important doctrine. Scofield invented dispensations, he believes people in the old testament were saved by their works. What is an everlasting gospel?       Those who seek truth will find it. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/scofield.htm

This is just one....I just googled it and there it is. Google doesn't lie, lol. The man that runs this website is even a pretrib guy who hates Anderson, but I agree with most things he has on it. I'm not going to address the disagreements with eschatology other than Matthew 24:29, mark 13:24....both say AFTER. Is this only to Jews? Mark 13:37 WHAT I SAY UNTO I SAY UNTO ALL, WATCH. I enjoyed a sermon by Sam Adams on Scofield. The hardest part to stop believing in the pretrib was just how many ppl believe in it, but once you come out of the closet (lol) you find out there is many more than you once thought.

[Matthew24]

Brethren,

I just finished watching the movie that Matthew 24 posted. The one hour and 53 miniutes of the movie was actually one hour and 53 minutes listening to the hereitic Steven Anderson lambasting those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture.

The movie is not a movie; it is a series of sermons and  lectures by Pastor Steven Anderson and his co-host Pastor Roger Jimenez. On occasion, they have Brother Kent Hovind. What respect that I had for Kent Hovind is totally gone. I feel sorry for Kent. 

Also I listened to the anti-Semitic rant of Pastor Anderson on another audio clip that is on his website. Pastor Anderson is anti-semitic to the core.

The lecture / movie is a series of twisted logic and interpretation derived from Matthew 24 and Revelation. Andersons interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 is also pathetic and a waste of time.

During the entire video he completely ignores all of the Old Testament references to the time of, "Jacob's Trouble," or, "The 7 year Tribulation period," and totally ignores the promises of God pertaining to the Jews in the time of, "Jacob's trouble." Also, it is very obvious that Pastor Anderson believes in, "Replacement theology," and that the nation of Israel in not, I repeat, not the "elect," nor or ever will be.

Although Anderson slanders Darby and Scofield, he praises Luther and Calvin. "Birds of a feather flock together."

His hatred, yes hatred, of the pre-tribulation rapture is evident throughout the entire video.

Besides making snide remarks, slandering, and belittling those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture here are a few choice words that he gave to those brethren who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture:

1. Anderson says the pre-tribulation rapture is a False Doctrine.

2. Based on Tradition (Darby and Scofield). Not on the Bible.

3. The pre-tribulation rapture is, and I quote Andersons own words "A fairy tale."

4. Anderson plainly says that those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture "Do not believe the Bible."

5. Anderson plainly says that those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture "Have no heart for God."

6. Anderson plainly says that those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture "Are brainwashed."

Also, Anderson plainly states that those mistaken brethren who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture are comparable to the Muslims, Buddhists, the Dali lama, and the Jews. In fact, Anderson says that those who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture will receive the anti-Christ as Jesus coming again.

In my estimation Pastor Anderson is anti-Semitic, cannot rightly divide the scriptures, a false teacher, and is causing harm to the independent Baptist fundamental movement.

Alan

 

 

Pretrib Believers are looking for Jesus. BTW, same as Islam and Jews....why wouldn't they take the mark? I don't believe the elect will, but the many unsaved "Christians" who blindly follow Hollywood will *BTW I have heard Anderson say that the elect will not be deceived...so obviously, he is contradicting himself, or you misunderstood.  I am looking for the antichrist first and the falling away. Why is it bad that Anderson hates Pretrib? lol. The elect are the saved. The thought of blessing a nation, that to become a citizen, one must denounce Jesus, is simply unbelievable. You think I am misguided(crazy) because I don't believe we should bless a nation who teaches Jesus was the son of a roman soldier named Pantera. Anderson believes all people are the same and wants to see all Jews saved. I wouldn't call anyone a false teacher who is 100% right on the gospel.

[Alan]

Matthew24,

Texe Marrs, and Pastor Sam Adams, is your clear answer! Texe Marrs is a Charismatic, conspiracy theroist, rabid anti-Semitic, hater of the nation of Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texe_Marrs In my estimation Texe Marrs is a false prophet. Texe Marrs is definately not an independent Baptist.

There are three things that Texe Marrs has in common with Pastor Anderson.

1. His hatred of the Scofield Reference Bible.

2. His conspiracy theories against the United States of America.

3. His anti-Semitisim.

In fact, Texe Marrs is more anti-Semitic than Pastor Anderson.

I wanted a clear answer from you, not Texe Marrs, nor anything from Pastor Sam Adams ( I am already familiar with Pastor Adams).

Matthew24, again, I ask you, not somebody else, to answer the questions that I poised concerning the Scofield Reference Bible.

"The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness." Proverbs 15:14

Your statement concerning C.I. Scofield and a Zionist funded commentary was vague, ambiguous and tended to make the casual reader think you are anti-Semitic.

In order to have full understanding, and seek knowledge in your posting we need more information concerning your posting. Could you please answer my above post, and the following two questions, with clear, precise and referenced answers. These three questions are important to understand your posting and reasoning.

1. Are you referring to the C. I. Scofield Reference Bible as a Zionist funded commentary?

2. Is anything financed by a Jew, or a Zionist organization, inherently bad? or evil? or unscriptual?

3. Please define, "Zionist."

Please give appropriate scriptual answers and specific, clear answers with references that can be checked and verified.

Alan

 

matthew24,

I would still like for you to answer the questions about Scofield. In the video it openly called C.I. Scofield and apsotate. Do you think that C.I. Scofield was an apostate? If so, why?

 

Can you please give me your, not somebody elses, clear, precise, answers to the above four questions. Broad answers are evasive answers. Please give exact, and appropriate,  scripture verse to prove exact reasons why Scofield is an apostate. As most who have studied the Scofield Reference Bible is knowledgeable with the shortcomings of it and Brother Scofield I am not seeking a debate on those issues.

Specifically, the first three questions deal with Zionism and the forth question is concerning Scofield being an apostate.

Alan

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Alan
clarification

[Alimantado]

I've not watched the video and don't know anywhere near enough about eschatology to speak to it, but I do have a question, prompted by Alan's request for a definition of the word 'Zionist'. On this forum I hear the word 'antisemitic' and 'antisemite' used a lot. Where I live, the word is most often used when talking about someone like a holocaust denier or a Nazi sympathiser. Alan, since you're the person who's used the word on this thread, would you be up for giving a definition of the word 'antisemite'? And by that I mean a definition in your own words--obviously I can look up dictionary definitions for myself.

John81,

I will try and be better in my approach and presentation.

Alan

John81 was talking about Anderson's approach and presentation, not yours, Alan! lol

[John81]

matthew24,

I would still like for you to answer the questions about Scofield. In the video it openly called C.I. Scofield and apsotate. Do you think that C.I. Scofield was an apostate? If so, why?

John81,

I will try and be better in my approach and presentation.

Alan

Alan,

If you are referring to my post previous to yours quoted here the only portion relating to you was my appreciation for your review. The rest of the post was with regards to Anderson. After reading my post again I can see how you many have mistook my intent. In essence that post was in agreement with your previous post with my adding what I've noticed of Anderson. Sorry for the confusion.

[Alan]

Alimantado and John81,

I want to publicly thank both of you. The post by John81 that I miss-understood could be read two ways. Everything is perfectly clear and in good order.

Concerning the definition of the word 'anti-Semitic' (noun) or 'anti-Semitic.' I have heard of the definition that you mentioned that it used for a holocaust denier or a Nazi sympathizer. I normally would not use that as a definition and consider that definition too narrow.

In my understanding, being an anti-Semitic would be one who is prejudiced against the Jews. This is a more broader definition and a more accurate one I believe.

As far as a clear definition of 'Zionism,’ or, Zionist,' that may also be somewhat difficult and may cause consternation between individuals who view the Jewish homeland in different ways. One of the reasons why I asked Matthew24 to define 'Zionist' is to make sure we are talking about the same thing, idea, or situation. I did not want to be bias before I read Matthew24 explain himself more fully.

Since you asked, I would define 'Zionism,' as a movement that supports a national homeland for the Jewish race in current land of Israel. A 'Zionist,' is either one who supports, materially, politically, morally or spiritually, a national homeland for the Jewish race in the land called Israel. I would gladly listen attentively to any alternate definition.

Brethren,

Again, I understand there may be differences in the terminology among good brethren in this matter. That is why I did not want to prejudice Matthew24, or anyone else on OnLine Baptist. I want to understand Matthew24's original post according to his definition; not mine.

Either way, I still believe that the four questions that I put forth to Matthew 24 are good, honest, questions that Matthew24 needs to answer, in his own words, using his own definitions, backed by scriptural reasoning. His accusations against the C.I. Scofield Reference Bible being funded as a  Zionist conspiracy is inherently biased against the Jews no matter what definition is used, and the assertion that anything funded by Jews or Zionists, whatever definition he wants to use, as unscriptural or evil, needs to be answered. The fourth question arose after I viewed the video as calling a brother, C.I. Scofield, apostate, and those who follow the pre-tribulation rapture apostate, are serious accusations. So, the accusations are in his first post, (except for the fourth question), so, in my estimation my four questions are legitimate, honest, scriptural, worthy of an answer, and of the Lord.

Alan

 

[Matthew24]

I seriously doubt the video said that those who teach the pretrib rapture are apostate. I may have time to answer later today.  

[Ukulelemike]

Wow, so much going on here.

Most regulars know I am the one mod who holds to a post-trib/pre-wrath position. However, I repudiate Anderson and his manners, the same way I would do so with Ruckman-I might agree in doctrine with some things they believe, but their manners and other beliefs I disagree with, and as such I wouldn't align myself with them in any of the things I agree on.

 That being said, I disagree with the idea that the entire tribulation period is all the wrath of God falling on the world. In fact, that the Antichrist and the false prophet and the dragon, Satan, are given almost free reign during the major portion of it, (though clearly ultimately subdued by the Lord), tells me that the Lord is sending tribulation, not wrath, upon the earth. Part of what we see happening, particularly in the trumpets, are demonic activity, (the locusts, four angels chained in the Euphrates), as well as God's judgments upon the earth and its rulers, (hail and fire mingled with bold, natural disasters, etc.), things, I think, that mankind will assume are natural things, great disasters, but not of God directly. And these things are designed to elicit repentance among those on earth. However when God's wrath falls, the vials of wrath, they come quickly, one after another, designed to kill and destroy many, followed quickly by the return of Christ to earth to destroy the nations of the world seeking to destroy Jerusalem. 

Notice what is said when the 7th trumpet sounds: "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." (Rev 11:15-18)

So now we see, the time of wrath was not come, (the wrath was not already in progress, it comes after the seventh trumpet), AND the time for the judging of the dead, (the lost), and rewarding of the saints was come now. And it is after this, in rev 14, that we see Jesus on the cloud reaping the harvest of the earth-the Rapture. And immediately after that, the VINE of the earth is reaped and gathered into the winepress of the wrath of God.

It seems to me such a clear separation here.

I also don't see the timing of the rapture as being such a big deal as to call anyone who disagrees an apostate-that word tends to get thrown around way too easily today. That the Lord is coming in the clouds to take His people back, and that He is also coming again as reigning King are the important things. He will sort out the details Himself. If I am wrong, I am more than happy to be received out before it occurs-if I am wrong, I have no doubt that He will be able to make those who believe otherwise to be able to handle the change just fine. I don't see it as a reason to separate. I don't even fight over it anymore-if it comes up I am happy to discuss it, but if not, I let it lie.

As for not knowing the time, I suspect the way things will occur, we could be into the process before many realize it. There will be no headlines saying "The Great Tribulation has started today!" So, the Bible says we will know the times and the seasons, just not the day nor the hour. I suspect we will see it coming, but won't know exactly when. But it also says, in 1Thes 5: "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." 

As children of the light, we aren't to be overtaken by surprise when the Lord comes-we won't know the exact time and day, but we WILL be aware of His soon coming, and in a more sure way than we think we are today. Today we look at things and say, "Oh, He's coming soon!" but really, He could wait another 100 years if He so chose. BUT, once we see the things literally coming true, and our eyes are opened by the Lord to see that they are, indeed, the things written of, THEN we will say of assurety, "Yes, He is coming SOON!" and know whereof we speak.

[wretched]

 

As children of the light, we aren't to be overtaken by surprise when the Lord comes-we won't know the exact time and day, but we WILL be aware of His soon coming, and in a more sure way than we think we are today. Today we look at things and say, "Oh, He's coming soon!" but really, He could wait another 100 years if He so chose. BUT, once we see the things literally coming true, and our eyes are opened by the Lord to see that they are, indeed, the things written of, THEN we will say of assurety, "Yes, He is coming SOON!" and know whereof we speak.

This is the point made earlier in this thread Mike, your idea here is not Scriptural IMO and we will not be here for the clear cut seals that will be unmistakable as pretty well described throughout Scripture. Your idea certainly takes away any "unawares" and "thief in the night" mentions in Scripture.

Allot of contingent speculation in your post. Sounds well researched but is contingent on so many variables. When a Pre trib "expert" analyses like you did, they cover all the ground as you and yours but with a pre trib outcome. The only thing that is not a variable is the fact that when it occurs noone will be expecting it. Even the people who keep pushing silly dates will be just as surprised as the rest. This negates all these contingent speculations IMO.

Contingent speculation in the King's English means: Your big guesses are dependent on whether your leading guesses are accurate.

 

[Ukulelemike]

This is the point made earlier in this thread Mike, your idea here is not Scriptural IMO and we will not be here for the clear cut seals that will be unmistakable as pretty well described throughout Scripture. Your idea certainly takes away any "unawares" and "thief in the night" mentions in Scripture.

Allot of contingent speculation in your post. Sounds well researched but is contingent on so many variables. When a Pre trib "expert" analyses like you did, they cover all the ground as you and yours but with a pre trib outcome. The only thing that is not a variable is the fact that when it occurs noone will be expecting it. Even the people who keep pushing silly dates will be just as surprised as the rest. This negates all these contingent speculations IMO.

Contingent speculation in the King's English means: Your big guesses are dependent on whether your leading guesses are accurate.

 

1Thes 5: "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

Clearly, it is absolutely scriptural. We are not children of darkness, but of light.

As for pre-trib 'experts', no, they actually read a lot into things that aren't there. For instance, time and again I read how 1Thes 4 is 'proof' for a pre-trib rapture, and I say, No, it is proof of a rapture-but nothing about timing. I see Rev 14 ignored time and again, while it is the ONLY clear scripture that shows Jesus actually reaping from the earth.

As for the seals, these are not events in the timeline, as it were, but more of a preview of coming attractions, unless there is a wrath poured out at the beginning, and one at the end-two wraths? No, I believe the seals are an overview of what is about to happen, and the events actually begin at the trumpets.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Ukulelemike

[wretched]

1Thes 5: "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

Clearly, it is absolutely scriptural. We are not children of darkness, but of light.

As for pre-trib 'experts', no, they actually read a lot into things that aren't there. For instance, time and again I read how 1Thes 4 is 'proof' for a pre-trib rapture, and I say, No, it is proof of a rapture-but nothing about timing. I see Rev 14 ignored time and again, while it is the ONLY clear scripture that shows Jesus actually reaping from the earth.

As for the seals, these are not events in the timeline, as it were, but more of a preview of coming attractions, unless there is a wrath poured out at the beginning, and one at the end-two wraths? No, I believe the seals are an overview of what is about to happen, and the events actually begin at the trumpets.

Sorry Mike, you are out of context with the children of light reference. This passage is in reference to remaining vigilant and always looking for His return in the clouds, check v 10, those asleep are also saved.

Reread my post above quoting Matt and Luke. NOONE will know. Your entire idea here is just wrong friend, sorry

Edited September 29, 2015 by wretched

[Alan]

Pretrib Believers are looking for Jesus. BTW, same as Islam and Jews....why wouldn't they take the mark? I don't believe the elect will, but the many unsaved "Christians" who blindly follow Hollywood will *BTW I have heard Anderson say that the elect will not be deceived...so obviously, he is contradicting himself, or you misunderstood.  I am looking for the antichrist first and the falling away. Why is it bad that Anderson hates Pretrib? lol. The elect are the saved. The thought of blessing a nation, that to become a citizen, one must denounce Jesus, is simply unbelievable. You think I am misguided(crazy) because I don't believe we should bless a nation who teaches Jesus was the son of a roman soldier named Pantera. Anderson believes all people are the same and wants to see all Jews saved. I wouldn't call anyone a false teacher who is 100% right on the gospel.

Matthew 24,

In the video Pastor Anderson plainly states that the same Messiah that the Muslims, Buddhists, and Jews look for is the same Messiah that the pre-tribulation rapture believers look for. And you say the same thing. This is a very serious accusation. It is also a false accusation and a slander.