Proof of the shrinking American brain.

[Invicta]

46 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

Making anything illegal is not an answer.

Does that include rape and murder?

[weary warrior]

53 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

So, what is the solution? Women keep having babies they can't or won't raise. Ok..so, contraception. Preferably long term like an IUD. Oh no...that MIGHT kill a fertilized egg...can't have that either. So...what's the solution? In an ideal world of Christian values, women would get married and responsibly have only the children they can reasonably raise...but...it doesn't work that way either...

Education: funding keeps getting cut. With the new idiot in DC, the public education system will end up dismantled. Then what? We will have a bunch of people with no education, no ability to hold down even the most rudimentary job, and then what? Let them just shrivel up and die? 

TANF increases for subsequent children is a strawman...even in Alaska...http://dhss.alaska.gov/dpa/Pages/atap/default.aspx

Alaska Temporary Assistance Program:

• Imposes a 60-month lifetime limit on assistance
• Limits additional assistance for second parents, and reduces benefits for two-parent families during July, August, and September when there are better opportunities for employment
• Requires families to complete a Family Self-Sufficiency Plan, identify self-sufficiency goals and work or participate in activities that will move them toward those goals
• Requires cooperation with the Child Support Services Division in establishing paternity for the children, locating the absent parent, and collecting any child support the absent parent is responsible for paying

• Prohibits making purchases with or accessing cash benefits on EBT cards at any ATMs that are located in bars, liquor stores, gambling or adult entertainment establishments.

 

Income Limits and Maximum Payments
1/1/2016 TO 12/31/2016

Household Size	2	3	4	5	6	Each Addt’l
Income Limit	$1,412	$1,590	$1,767	$1,945	$2,122	$178
Maximum Payment	$821	$923	$1,025	$1,127	$1,229	$102

 

 

Now...care to try to tell me some more? Stop buying the anecdotal rubbish. Here's the law for Alaska. Here's the money they get. Does this really sound like the budget busting line item you think it is? 

Also, how did those counties vote in the last election? Red or Blue? 

 

I was polite. I was courteous. I was gentle even. I was very respectful to a lady, as I was raised. Your response, however, was not in kind. Your triumphant internet numbers are meaningless, as many Alaska Natives are members of various Alaska Native Associations, and billions of dollars of federal welfare is funneled through these entities, not simply through the State. You have no idea whereof you speak. I give you 30 years of personal, upfront experience on the front lines, not anecdotal evidence that I gleaned from a quick google search of the internet.

I will tear a man up if aroused, but will not engage in contention with a woman. It is not how things are done among my people.

I bid you "Good Day", Ma'am.

 

 

[Ukulelemike]

5 hours ago, Saved41199 said:

My point exactly. Why I support social safety nets. Strong social safety nets. It is easier to talk to someone about the gospel when their stomach isn't growling, when they aren't dirty and cold. 

But, that makes me a "dirty lib" among some of those here. It's ok though...I have to follow what I believe, untainted by the propaganda of the world. 

"Brother or sister". Now, I understand that every homeless person has a sign that says "God bless you", but I suspect they are not, generally-speaking, my brother or sister.

I lived many years in Reno, NV, a place with a LOT of beggars. I don't say homeless, because, while there are some homeless, these are not who I am speaking of-I mean beggars, people with a car and a house and usually an addiction, be it to drugs, alcohol or gambling, and they beg to cover their addictions, OR, they beg so as not to work otherwise. I know-I worked security in a casino, and we knew these people very well. They come out, spread a blanket, with their dog sitting next to them wearing a little bandana, and a cup. And there they sit, all day, collecting up money. These people make upward of 85-100K per year, tax free, doing nothing. The Bible says, "If a man won't work, neither shall he eat"

So no, I don't give to them. Last time I did, a guy gave me a story of how he was stuck there and needed money for gas, so I thought, 'Ah-ha! I will just offer to buy his gas.!" Smart, right? He says, "Okay", comes back two minutes later in a brand new 3/4 ton diesel pick-up truck, still with a temporary tag on it.   No, I don't give. Better to give to organizations that help people who really need help. We aren't living in Israel 2,000 years ago-even then, they had to pretty much be known to be in need-now it is just fake vets and drug addicts looking to get money for their addictions.

[...]

As I said, social justice issues can be very contentious and many of them can be disagreed upon.  Things like whether or not healthcare should be free for all or if we should have a border wall, should not be something that splits Christians apart.  However, it is my opinion that the issue of abortion is of the utmost importance.  If someone claiming to be a Christian believes that a woman should have the legal right to end the life of the child living within her belly, for any reason, that is condoning infant murder.  That shows an extremely concerning flaw in the character of that person that must be addressed and corrected.  However, I still do not believe that it, in and of itself, effects a person's salvation.  It just means that the Holy Spirit still has much work to do in the conscience of that person.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2017 by Brother Stafford

[...]

22 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Does that include rape and murder?

This is not helping.  I think you know very well that she is not giving support for rape and murder being legal. 

[No Nicolaitans]

I ordered some new athletic shoes online about two weeks ago, and received them Monday. They're really comfortable. This was a first for me, because I don't like ordering clothing/shoes without being able to try them on. They fit perfectly.

I also ate some Doritos last night before going to bed, and they were quite tasty.

Every once-in-a-while, I like to live on the wild side and drink my coffee black too.

Now, let's all take a deep breath. I sense just a wee bit of anger and angst here. :)

[Saved41199]

18 minutes ago, Brother Stafford said:

However, it is my opinion that the issue of abortion is of the utmost importance.  If someone claiming to be a Christian believes that a woman should have the legal right to end the life of the child living within her belly, for any reason, that is condoning infant murder.  That shows an extremely concerning flaw in the character of that person that must be addressed and corrected.

You are failing to see a very nuanced position. You are also failing to see that abortion was a total non-issue to the Christian community (except for the Catholics) until after 1980, a full 7 years after the Roe v. Wade decision. You are also failing to see that since the SCOTUS decision in 1973, there have been Republican administrations in power for 23 of the last 44 years...and well...it has yet to be overturned. I think that before anyone else attempts to answer this, especially given the title of this thread, they may want to do some research on the rise of the "Religious Right" and the "Moral Majority". 

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/januaryweb-only/1-20-31.0.html?start=1

http://billmoyers.com/2014/07/17/when-southern-baptists-were-pro-choice/

https://www.onfaith.co/onfaith/2013/01/22/roe-v-wade-anniversary-how-abortion-became-an-evangelical-issue/11238

Time to do a wee bit of homework here. These are but a few of the articles that have formed my opinions on the subject. Therefore...the idea of a "shrinking brain" in my case is not truth. 

[...]

11 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

You are failing to see a very nuanced position. You are also failing to see that abortion was a total non-issue to the Christian community (except for the Catholics) until after 1980, a full 7 years after the Roe v. Wade decision. You are also failing to see that since the SCOTUS decision in 1973, there have been Republican administrations in power for 23 of the last 44 years...and well...it has yet to be overturned. I think that before anyone else attempts to answer this, especially given the title of this thread, they may want to do some research on the rise of the "Religious Right" and the "Moral Majority". 

Saved, I don't understand why you cannot answer a very straight forward question.  I asked you if you believe that it should be illegal for any woman to get an abortion once they realize they are pregnant or if a woman should have the legal right to choose to abort her child.  Since you refuse to answer this, it leads me to infer that you do not wish to give a straight forward answer.

At this very moment, I am not concerned about what the SCOTUS or Republican or Democrat administrations have or have not done.  I am interested to know whether of not you believe that a woman should have the legal right to kill her unborn child.  I do not wish to put words in your mouth, so please answer that question.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Brother Stafford

[Saved41199]

51 minutes ago, Brother Stafford said:

 I am interested to know whether of not you believe that a woman should have the legal right to kill her unborn child.

Did you read the articles I linked to? What did you think of them? Do you see where the whole pro-life issue went from a non-issue to an issue? Do you see where you have been duped and twisted? 

Therefore the only answer you will get to me is that while you choose to use such inflammatory language, I will not answer. Back down on the rhetoric, read the articles I linked and then maybe we can be on the same page on this discussion. 

[...]

49 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

Did you read the articles I linked to? What did you think of them? Do you see where the whole pro-life issue went from a non-issue to an issue? Do you see where you have been duped and twisted? 

Therefore the only answer you will get to me is that while you choose to use such inflammatory language, I will not answer. Back down on the rhetoric, read the articles I linked and then maybe we can be on the same page on this discussion. 

Saved, It is s simple question.  No, I have not read the articles.  I do not believe that I should be asked to read a number of lengthy articles in order to receive an answer to a simple yes or no question.  Since you cannot seem to grant such a simple and honest request, which I believe I have done in a very kind manner, without putting words into your mouth as of yet, I can only assume that you are not answering because you believe that women should, indeed, have the legal right to terminate the lives of their unborn children.  You must have some special circumstances or special justifications for believing so and you may be refusing to answer the question because you believe the answer, in the affirmative, to be complicated.

If I read your previous posts correctly, you have only recently been baptized and, I assume, that you are a fairly new Christian (please correct me if I am wrong).  I believe that we should allow newer Christians to find their bearings and to give time to the Holy Spirit to convict them of sinful and evil thoughts and practices.  I still love you as a sister in Christ, but if you do, in fact, believe there are acceptable reasons for ending the life of an unborn child, I must inform you that you are wrong.  This is not opinion, this is fact.

Before God even created us in the womb, He knew us.  So, when a woman becomes pregnant, the being that is growing inside of her, however small and undefined, does, indeed possess a soul. God does not create a new living thing within the body of a woman and then, sometime later, put a soul into it.

(Jeremiah 1:5) "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Please read and consider what God says about causing a woman to lose her child.

(Exodus 21:22-25) "¶ If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. {23} And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, {24} Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, {25} Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

It is at least worthy of punishment and, at most, worthy of death.  There are some subjects that are open for discussion and debate and about which we, as Christians, can hold different opinions, but the subject of abortion is not one of them.  Even in the case of saving a mother's life, it is not acceptable.

Consider this:  Say that a mother and a baby are riding in a hot air balloon.  All of a sudden, one of the ropes, that holds the basket to the balloon, snaps, but the basket is still held secure.  Now another rope snaps.  Now another.  Now there is one rope left and the mother knows that the basket will definitely not hold the weight of both her and her child.  If you were that mother, would you throw your child out of the basket in the hope that it would save your own life?  Or would you leave your child in the basket and allow yourself to fall to a certain death; hoping the basket would hold your child?

We are all going to die.  It's just a matter of when and how.  Dying while in the process of giving birth to a child is just one of countless ways we can die, and, I would argue, a noble way.  However, allowing a doctor to end your child's life, just so you can have a few more years or decades to live, is possibly the most selfish and despicable thing a woman could possibly do, second only to "terminating" their child for convenience or for maintaining financial comfort.

In the case of rape, it is still evil.  The act of rape does not invalidate the life that God chose to create.  Remember, even though we may not understand everything He does, God intentionally created a life to come about as a result of that rape.  A child conceived by rape didn't somehow slip past God; He created it intentionally and to "terminate" it is to tell God that He was wrong, that He made a mistake and that the gift that He gave you is worthy of being destroyed and thrown into a dumpster.

In the case of birth defects, it is still evil.  Remember remember remember... God created that life on purpose.  If He wants a child to be born with Downe's Syndrome or AIDS or with no legs or without working lungs, or whether or not it lives or dies, that is God's business.  He has His reasons and we have no right to second guess His decisions.  

Talk to some abortion survivors.  Talk to some mothers who ignored the doctors and gave birth to perfectly healthy babies and survived giving birth just fine.  Doctors can be and are wrong very often.  Risk or no risk, healthy or disabled, a long life or a short one, abortion is always sinful and evil.  

As I have said before, I love you in Christ, but, my dear sister, abortion is an abominable evil.

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by Brother Stafford

[wretched]

3 hours ago, Saved41199 said:

So, what is the solution? Women keep having babies they can't or won't raise. Ok..so, contraception. Preferably long term like an IUD. Oh no...that MIGHT kill a fertilized egg...can't have that either. So...what's the solution? In an ideal world of Christian values, women would get married and responsibly have only the children they can reasonably raise...but...it doesn't work that way either...

Education: funding keeps getting cut. With the new idiot in DC, the public education system will end up dismantled. Then what? We will have a bunch of people with no education, no ability to hold down even the most rudimentary job, and then what? Let them just shrivel up and die? 

TANF increases for subsequent children is a strawman...even in Alaska...http://dhss.alaska.gov/dpa/Pages/atap/default.aspx

Alaska Temporary Assistance Program:

• Imposes a 60-month lifetime limit on assistance
• Limits additional assistance for second parents, and reduces benefits for two-parent families during July, August, and September when there are better opportunities for employment
• Requires families to complete a Family Self-Sufficiency Plan, identify self-sufficiency goals and work or participate in activities that will move them toward those goals
• Requires cooperation with the Child Support Services Division in establishing paternity for the children, locating the absent parent, and collecting any child support the absent parent is responsible for paying

• Prohibits making purchases with or accessing cash benefits on EBT cards at any ATMs that are located in bars, liquor stores, gambling or adult entertainment establishments.

 

Income Limits and Maximum Payments
1/1/2016 TO 12/31/2016

Household Size	2	3	4	5	6	Each Addt’l
Income Limit	$1,412	$1,590	$1,767	$1,945	$2,122	$178
Maximum Payment	$821	$923	$1,025	$1,127	$1,229	$102

 

 

Now...care to try to tell me some more? Stop buying the anecdotal rubbish. Here's the law for Alaska. Here's the money they get. Does this really sound like the budget busting line item you think it is? 

Also, how did those counties vote in the last election? Red or Blue? 

 

Miss,

You will not be judged on what happens with the government or the world.

YOU WILL BE JUDGED ON WHETHER YOU LOST YOUR LIFE IN THIS WORLD AND PICKED UP YOUR INDIVIDUAL CROSS AND FOLLOWED HIM.

Follow Jesus in your individual small part of the world and you will be rewarded. Wasting your time with what is not in your control is a waste of your God given time to prove yourself to God.

[weary warrior]

I don't like what I wrote here, nor how it sounded. It was not helpful. So I removed it.

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by weary warrior
Post was not helpful

[Saved41199]

20 minutes ago, Brother Stafford said:

In the case of birth defects, it is still evil.  Remember remember remember... God created that life on purpose.  If He wants a child to be born with Downe's Syndrome or AIDS or with no legs or without working lungs, or whether or not it lives or dies, that is God's business.  He has His reasons and we have no right to second guess His decisions.  

And in those cases (of which I know a few), do you think that perhaps the parents should receive aid to care for these children? Or should they also be forced to bear the unbelievable financial, emotional, physical costs too? Do you think that in those cases EVERY THING should be done to try to keep the child alive? 

I asked you to read those articles because those are articles that are part of what has formed my conscience on this matter. I guess you don't quite understand that I take NOTHING at face value. I research everything...comes from a long history of being the engineering type I am. 

[Saved41199]

then if you want to put it in terms of my little corner of the world...what others do is of no matter to me, right? I'm too old to have to worry about getting pregnant, my daughter had her tubes tied after her second child (and lost custody and rights to them when she chose to deal drugs and ended up in prison) and I have no more girl children to worry about. 

Because of a woman's irresponsibility in having a child she had no business having and my son who's also a blooming idiot who cannot care for that child, I will be turning my life upside down, including moving, to care for the unwanted grandson of mine. We are waiting on the final CPS determination and meeting with our housing caseworker to see how fast they can get us into a bigger apartment. I love my grandson beyond reason but I can't help but think that maybe his parents had no business bringing him into this world to be abandoned by both his parents and his current guardians who are known violent drug addicts and alcoholics. 

So...there you have it. I love him beyond reason...however, the adults in his life have inflicted more pain and abuse on him in his 4 short years on earth than he deserves. Now, Nona and Poppa will be dealing with a child who will need a whole lot and neither one of us really have what it takes to dedicate our lives to a 4 year old. I'm 52, hub is 54. Neither one of us is thrilled about this...but we do what we have to do. 

[No Nicolaitans]

I read (or attempted to read*) the articles, and though you don't know it...that's pretty big for me. I usually have no interest in reading such items.

The first one *required me to subscribe in order to finish reading it; therefore, I declined and wasn't able to read the article in its entirety. Of the three writers, I only recognized one name...Albert Mohler...a man whose theology greatly differs from mine. I will be completely honest...I am biased against "Christianity Today", and I put no confidence in their writings or endeavors. The second article was in relation to how the Southern Baptist Convention responded to Roe vs. Wade. Again, while I have many friends who are part of the SBC, I put no confidence in the endeavors or decisions made by the SBC. The third article...well, I've already stated how I feel about that.

While we each are free to form our opinion(s) regarding such issues, that doesn't mean that our opinions are correct. We may believe our opinions, we may hold them firm, and we may think they are justified...however...they are "our" opinions...and "our" opinions are nothing of worth if they aren't in agreement with the opinions of God. I know that life is hard...I KNOW that life is hard. My wife and I know what it means to struggle. We know. We know more than I want to know.

I'm 50 years old. My wife and I have two children...an 18 year old daughter, and a six year old son...both of whom have major health issues. We also have two missing children. One child miscarried about 10 years ago, and the second child miscarried last week.

As I was writing this, two replies popped up...so I read them. Bro. Stafford mentioned exactly what was on my heart. God knows a person before they are formed. So while medical science may attempt to determine when life starts, that doesn't matter to me. My "secular" opinion is that life starts as soon as the sperm fertilizes the egg...if that didn't happen, none of the other things would. However, God knows us before we are even formed; therefore, life started in God's mind before the sperm and egg. However, what's more important about that is this...if one reads the verse, God says that he is the one who forms one in the belly. He is the one who is giving life. If we take that life away, we are opposing God.

It doesn't matter if the SBC was pro-choice at one time or not (which I don't know if that's true or not). It doesn't matter if the Catholic Church led the charge against abortion, so "Evangelicals" were afraid to side with them (I also don't know if that's true, but it wouldn't surprise me). All that matters is what does God say about it...

He knows a person before they are formed.

He's the one who forms them.

2 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

I love my grandson beyond reason but I can't help but think that maybe his parents had no business bringing him into this world to be abandoned by both his parents and his current guardians who are known violent drug addicts and alcoholics.

Have you considered that it could have been God's plan for this precious boy to be born so that you and your husband would raise him? I'm happy and proud to hear that you're accepting the responsibility. After all, the poor boy could just be turned over to the state.

4 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

Now, Nona and Poppa will be dealing with a child who will need a whole lot and neither one of us really have what it takes to dedicate our lives to a 4 year old. I'm 52, hub is 54. Neither one of us is thrilled about this...but we do what we have to do. 

As I said, I'm 50. We have our own 6 year old son at a time when most people our age have grandchildren. We just lost another child through miscarriage. You may not think you have what it takes, but it's there.