Comment On Current Debate

[MountainChristian]

If the Church was grafted into Israel, and God is done with Israel wouldn't God also be done with the church?

[Genevanpreacher]

Good grief Charlie Brown.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

[Pastor Scott Markle]

No, I do not believe that Galatians 3:7-26 provides an appropriate answer to my above questions; and I do not believe so for the following reasons:

1.  Because in my above questions I very clearly specified the three passages about which I was specifically asking the questions, those being Genesis 22:18; 26:4; 28:14.
2.  Because in both of the questions in my point #1 above, I specifically included the phrase, "in and of themselves," which excludes any reference to any other passage(s).
3.  Because in specifying the passages about which I was asking my questions, I did not at all include any reference to Galatians 3:7-26.

So then, Brother "Genevanpreacher," for the third time I would ask -- Would you please provide your answer to those questions that I asked about Genesis 22:18; 26:4; 28:14?​

[Brother "Genevanpreacher"]

Maybe since Paul, (who by the way wrote Galatians), understood those verses to mean as per the following:

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith,

preached before the gospel unto Abraham,saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Why can't you accept that?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Oh, I can accept that the apostle Paul wrote Galatians 3:8 under the very inspiration of God the Holy Spirit Himself.  I can further accept that Galatians 3:8 provides a Holy Spirit-inspired, New Testament commentary and explanation for the passages in Genesis.  However, I cannot accept that a reference to Galatians 3:8 answers my specific question because my specific question was a question about the specific information that is found in the specific sentences that are recorded in the specific references of Genesis 22:18; 26:4; 28:14.

However, I am able to approach this matter from another direction.  So then, let me ask you a question about Galatians 3:8 -- 

1.  Does Galatian 3:8 specify the form of blessing by which all the families of the earth would be blessed in and through Abraham? 
2.  If so, what does it specify that the from of this blessing would be?

I do not believe that I need to press this matter any further, since Brother Day (which was the one to whom and concerning whom I began this line of questioning) has now answered my questions (at least for point #1).

My questions -- (1) Do Genesis 22:18; 26:4; 28:14 in and of themselves specify the form of blessing by which all the families and nations of the earth would be blessed in and through Abraham's seed?  (2) If so, what do they in and of themselves specify that the form of this blessing would be?

His answer:  "The detail is not given in the cited promises . . . ."

____________________________________________​

However, for the sake of audience, I do wish to provide a demonstration of how my line of questioning would have proceeded from my questions above concerning Galatians 3:8.  This I wish to do in order to reveal the progression that was intended by my line of questioning (since I have recently been accused of not advancing the discussion by my manner of questioning).

My questions concerning Galatians 3:8 -- (1) Does Galatian 3:8 specify the form of blessing by which all the families of the earth would be blessed in and through Abraham?  (2) If so, what does it specify that the from of this blessing would be?

The answer -- (1) Yes.  (2) The gospel of eternal justification through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior from sin.

Then with this answer in mind, I would have proceeded to the next question -- Is the information that this blessing is the gospel of eternal justification through faith in Christ a part of the apostle Paul's quotation of Genesis 22:18?

The answer -- No (for the only part of Galatians 3:8 that is a quotation from Genesis 22:18 is the phrase, "In thee shall all the nations be blessed.")

Then with this answer in mind, I would have proceeded to the next question -- So then, is it valid to say that Genesis 22:18 does not specify the form of blessing by which all the families and nations of the earth would be blessed in and through Abraham's seed?

The answer -- Yes, it is true that Genesis 22:18 does not specify the form of this blessing (since the Holy Spirit inspired commentary and explanation of the apostle Paul in Galatians 3:8 was necessary to provide that information).

______________________________________________________________

So then, please understand that my questions always have a precise and predetermined reason, purpose, and objective.  

Also please understand that a great amount of the above progression would never have been necessary if the answer to my original questions as they were asked would have been provided.  Indeed, the above lengthy progression that occurred above could have been handled as quickly and as easily as follows:

 My question --  Do Genesis 22:18; 26:4; 28:14 in and of themselves specify the form of blessing by which all the families and nations of the earth would be blessed in and through Abraham's seed?  If so, what do they in and of themselves specify that the form of this blessing would be?

The answer -- No, they do not specify the form of the blessing.  (To which could have been added the following explanation -- However, Galatians 3:8 does provide that information.)

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Brother Day,

You have now provided an answer to my questions -- Do Genesis 22:18; 26:4; 28:14 in and of themselves specify the form of blessing by which all the families and nations of the earth would be blessed in and through Abraham's seed?  If so, what do they in and of themselves specify that the form of this blessing would be?

However, there is yet another question that I have presented to you -- Do Genesis 22:18; 26:4; 28:14 say that a plural number of God's blessings are for all the families and nations of the earth?

Would you please answer that question.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Bro Scott, you do make understanding difficult. When you ask a question repeatedly to which the answer is obvious - (1) Do Genesis 22:18; 26:4; 28:14 in and of themselves specify the form of blessing by which all the families and nations of the earth would be blessed in and through Abraham's seed?  (2) If so, what do they in and of themselves specify that the form of this blessing would be? - then it is natural to wonder what is behind your question. 

​Brother Day,

Are you finding it difficult to understand the meaning of my questions?  Or, are finding it difficult to understand the motivation behind my questions (as per your statement, "then it is natural to wonder what is behind your question)?   

Paul clearly knew by inspiration the significance of the promise, & gave his answer in Galatians, as Geneva said. 

Yes, the apostle Paul certainly did know by the inspiration of God the Holy the significance of the promise; and since God the Holy Spirit did indeed inspire the apostle to record this information in Galatians, we also can know the significance of the promise.  However, this information was not directly relevant to my questions as they were asked.

The discussion is not advanced by such questions.

Actually, this is not a truly valid statement.  Since you appear (as per your above statement) not to understand the motivation behind my questions, you cannot possibly know whether, or not, my questions are advancing the discussion in accord with my motivation for the discussion.  My questions may not be advancing the discussion in accord with your own motivation for the discussion, but that does not mean that my questions are not advancing the discussion.

__________________________________________________

Especially when the question ignores the answer already given & you only partially quote, as below:

I wrote: 

"When the Lord Jesus Christ leaves heaven for the resurrection, all the promises of the old covenant Scriptures will indeed be gloriously & perfectly fulfilled in the NH&NE for all those of all nations (including Israel!) who believe in the Lord Jesus for salvation. Meanwhile NOW is the day of salvation... 2 Cor. 6:2 

I ask - where in the NT are the earthly, physical kingdom & temple promises, complete with animal sacrifices for sin,  to Israel as a nation, apart from other people restated? Listen to John's vision of heaven:

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

You ignore the statement that precedes the question you quote - which gives the answer. You also ignore the Scriptures quoted.

In my posting above, I quoted your question exactly as you delivered it.  I only quoted the question itself because I only intended to respond to the question itself.  However, I most certainly did consider the comments that you presented both immediately before and after your question.

Now, in your comments above, you accuse me of ignoring the answer that you had already provided to your question through your comments that immediately preceded and immediately followed the question.  However, I must contend that your statements both immediately before and after your question do not provide an answer to your question at all.  Your question itself is as follows:  "Where in the NT are the earthly, physical kingdom & temple promises, complete with animal sacrifices for sin,  to Israel as a nation, apart from other people restated?"  The first words of your question are, "Where in the NT," which by definition requires the answer to be some references in the New Testament.  Now, within your comments both immediately before and after your question, you provide two New Testament references, those being 2 Corinthians 6:2 & Revelation 5:9-10.  However, neither of these New Testament passages restates "the earthly, physical kingdom & temple promises, complete with animal sacrifices for sin,  to Israel as a nation, apart from other people."  Therefore, neither of these passages provides an answer to your question.  On the other hand, what I believe that your motive was in asking your question (although I am not absolutely certain because you did not declare your motive) was to receive the answer that these promises are not repeated anywhere in the New Testament.  Furthermore, what I believe that your motive was in receiving this answer (although again I am not absolutely certain because you did not declare your motive) was to indicate that these promises are no longer in force as (supposedly) proven by the fact that they are not repeated in the New Testament.

In fact, it was this very understanding (whether valid or not) of what you presented as whole (including the question itself and both the immediately preceding and following context) that moved me to respond with my question -- Do these promises of the Lord God (removing your phrase, "complete with animal sacrifices for sin") need to be restated in the New Testament Scriptures in order to remain the absolutely truthful and faithful Word of God unto the children of Israel?  Did the Lord God ever revoke these promises (again removing your phrase, "complete with animal sacrifices for sin") from the children of Israel?

________________________________________________________

 Yes, they do need to be restated if they relate to a future millennium that includes godless people who join in a Satan-led rebellion against  Christ, his saints & the beloved city, prior to the passing away of the first H&E by fire & the establishment of the NH&NE. Especially as the OT promises include Ezekiel's temple with its animal sacrifices for sin. (By removing the offending phrase it seems you acknowledge that Ezekiel's temple & other sacrifice prophecies are typical of Jesus perfect sacrifice.) 

Now, concerning your answer to my question -- You indicate that these promises would definitely need to be restated in the New Testament if the scenario that you present above is valid.  I would like to ask -- Why would these promises definitely need to be restated in the New Testament in such a case?  

 

Edited June 6, 2015 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Alan]

Pastor Markle asked a good question, and I quote,"Now, concerning your answer to my question -- You indicate that these promises would definitely need to be restated in the New Testament if the scenario that you present above is valid.  I would like to ask -- Why would these promises definitely need to be restated in the New Testament in such a case? "

Quite frankly, that is an an excellent question. There is no need for God to restate the promises made in the Old Testament in the New Testament. God does not need to repeat Himself nor do things according to what we want. Should we question God? Is not the scriptures God's word? not ours?

This reminds me of the words of Job, "Behold, he [God] taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?" Job 9:12

 

[Covenanter]

I think we can focus on this point:

Now, concerning your answer to my question -- You indicate that these promises would definitely need to be restated in the New Testament if the scenario that you present above is valid.  I would like to ask -- Why would these promises definitely need to be restated in the New Testament in such a case?  

​They would need to be restated in terms of Israel after the flesh, & the defined territory because the wonderful OT promises are not restated in the NT, & the teaching given by Jesus & his Apostles is that:

1. God intended the promises to have their perfect fulfilment in the resurrection & the NH&NE rather than on the present earthly land of Israel. 1 Cor. 15  2 Peter 3:3-15  Rev. 21:1-8 

2. The promises concerning land & nation are widened to include other lands & nations or people groups. Gen. 12:1-3  Isa. 49:1-8  Luke 2:10  Luke 2:25-32  Luke 24:44-49  John 10:16  John 11:49-52  Acts 1:6-8  Rom. 15:8-13  Rev. 5:9-10  Rev. 7:9-17  1 Peter 2:4-10 (see Exo. 19:3-6 )

3.  God's purposes for his redeemed people in & through Christ are more glorious than could be expressed in terms of Israel & the land, so that the promises are seen to be examples & shadows of the heavenly reality. Exo. 25:8-9  Heb. 8:1-6  Rom. 11:25-36  1 Cor. 2:6-16  Gal. 3:10-29  Eph. 2:11-22  Col. 2:24-29  

4. The unbelieving nation of Israel as distinct from the believing people of Israel, forfeit the promises by rejection of their Messiah.  Deu. 18:18-19 Mat. 3:7-12  Mat. 21:33-45  Mark 16:15-16  Acts 3:18-26  Acts 13:38-48

 

Does that make God a liar, or purveyor of false promises, or a covenant breaker? NO! NO! NO! 

God cannot lie. He keeps his promises in ways more glorious than could be expressed in terms of the nation & the land. God in Christ lived under the covenant, was obedient to the terms to perfection, suffered as the covenant surety for his people, & established a new & everlasting covenant in his own blood. 

Many thousands of the people of Israel were converted during the Acts period and formed churches. Believers in Jesus were rejected by the nation's rulers, who were declared "uncircumcised" by the Holy Spirit speaking through Stephen. Acts 7:51 They married & had families, descended form Abraham, as did the unbelieving Jews, but they ceased to identify themselves as Jews, nor Israelites, "Christians" was the name adopted for them, Acts 11:26  with local gatherings being churches.   

 

 

 

[DaveW]

God says to Abram "I have these wonderful promises for you which are everlasting. They are not only for you but for your children in your flesh. They are also everlasting promises."

Later God says to Abram "Actually Abram, I am giving your promises to a different group of people and calling those people "your children", that way I  can take the everlasting promises away from your children and give them to others, but because I have called them "your children" I am still keeping my promise to you."

Yep, that sounds like a trustworthy God who keeps His promises......

Thanks, but I will stick with the God of the Bible thanks - the One who ACTUALLY keeps His promises instead of redefining them.

Edited June 6, 2015 by DaveW

[MountainChristian]

 Everlasting Covenant – Genesis 9:16 (rainbow) This isn't repeated in the new testament, has this covenant been replaced?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

I think we can focus on this point:

​They would need to be restated in terms of Israel after the flesh, & the defined territory because the wonderful OT promises are not restated in the NT, & the teaching given by Jesus & his Apostles is that:

1. God intended the promises to have their perfect fulfilment in the resurrection & the NH&NE rather than on the present earthly land of Israel. 1 Cor. 15  2 Peter 3:3-15  Rev. 21:1-8 

2. The promises concerning land & nation are widened to include other lands & nations or people groups. Gen. 12:1-3  Isa. 49:1-8  Luke 2:10  Luke 2:25-32  Luke 24:44-49  John 10:16  John 11:49-52  Acts 1:6-8  Rom. 15:8-13  Rev. 5:9-10  Rev. 7:9-17  1 Peter 2:4-10 (see Exo. 19:3-6 )

3.  God's purposes for his redeemed people in & through Christ are more glorious than could be expressed in terms of Israel & the land, so that the promises are seen to be examples & shadows of the heavenly reality. Exo. 25:8-9  Heb. 8:1-6  Rom. 11:25-36  1 Cor. 2:6-16  Gal. 3:10-29  Eph. 2:11-22  Col. 2:24-29  

4. The unbelieving nation of Israel as distinct from the believing people of Israel, forfeit the promises by rejection of their Messiah.  Deu. 18:18-19 Mat. 3:7-12  Mat. 21:33-45  Mark 16:15-16  Acts 3:18-26  Acts 13:38-48

 

Does that make God a liar, or purveyor of false promises, or a covenant breaker? NO! NO! NO! 

God cannot lie. He keeps his promises in ways more glorious than could be expressed in terms of the nation & the land. God in Christ lived under the covenant, was obedient to the terms to perfection, suffered as the covenant surety for his people, & established a new & everlasting covenant in his own blood. 

Many thousands of the people of Israel were converted during the Acts period and formed churches. Believers in Jesus were rejected by the nation's rulers, who were declared "uncircumcised" by the Holy Spirit speaking through Stephen. Acts 7:51 They married & had families, descended form Abraham, as did the unbelieving Jews, but they ceased to identify themselves as Jews, nor Israelites, "Christians" was the name adopted for them, Acts 11:26  with local gatherings being churches.   

​Brother Day,

I wish to thank you for answering my question.

However, before I set my focus upon this matter, I wish to maintain my focus upon the question that I have twice asked of you already --

Do Genesis 22:18; 26:4; 28:14 say that a plural number of God's blessings are for all the families and nations of the earth?

Would you please answer this question?

[Invicta]

 Everlasting Covenant – Genesis 9:16 (rainbow) This isn't repeated in the new testament, has this covenant been replaced?

Don't we still have rainbows?

Edited July 1, 2015 by Invicta

[DaveW]

Do we still have Jews?

Is there still a land that was promised to them?

Strangely enough, everlasting covenants appear to be everlasting?

 

[Invicta]

Do we still have Jews?

Is there still a land that was promised to them?

Strangely enough, everlasting covenants appear to be everlasting?

 

​Actually, I have never said the covenants were not everlasting.  

[MountainChristian]

Was Jesus Adam's grandson to the 70th generation? Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This verse has been quoted in the debate, how many generations did it take for this to be fulfilled? Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Another verse used in the debate, how many years did it take God to get around to fulfilling this verse? Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Did God fulfill this verse before Micah passed away? Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Did Isaiah meet Mary before he died? Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Where are the verses about the Messiah in the old testament where a speedy fulfillment occurred? 

 

[DaveW]

Okay - so Covenantor the proven liar and false teacher is allowed IN THE DEBATE  to accuse Brother Scott of falsifying God's promises - in other words of lying about what God has said - in a post which has as its entirety that purpose and intent? 

THAT is in the spirit of the debate, isn't it?

 

Covenantor has constantly made a joke of the debate and apart from showing how ridiculously inept he is at understanding both plain language and more importantly God's  Word, he has again proven that he has no respect for Brother Scott, nor for Brother Matt and the forum in general.

But he is allowed to get away with it.

Constantly.