Jump to content
  • Welcome to Online Baptist

    Free to join.

1Timothy115

Comment On Current Debate

Recommended Posts

Ian, I understand you may become somewhat surprised, disappointed, even have some frustration for this thread. The thread is discussing the need for knowledge of grammar to understand our Bible. Our 1769 KJV AV was for the most part written in Modern English or Early Modern English. Some sentences are straight forward in our Bible. For others we must resort to helps and a careful analysis of structure and word usage. We depend on the Holy Spirit to assist us in understanding but, sometimes personally, I believe He tells me to use the helps He has already permitted man to accumulate. Other times, I believe God just makes us wait for understanding. 

For example, I have a Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, Second College Edition. Before the first definition is given, there are several topics presented...
Guide to the use of the dictionary pp. ix-xiv (6 pgs.)
Language and the dictionary pp. xv-xxx (16 pgs.)
Etymology pp. xxi-xxii (2 pgs.)
Americanisms pp. xxxiii-xxxiv (2 pgs)
Abbreviations and symbols used in this dictionary pp. xxxv-xxxvi (2 pgs)
This dictionary is for collegiate level use and above, for people who have spent 12 years (at least) in grammar studies.  People with exhaustive education in grammar still require the breakdown of sentences to fully grasp the meaning of words used and understand if they have been blessed or cursed. We can't even use the tools without the ability to decipher the instructions or explanations given by the tools, in this example a dictionary. This is supposed to be my language while even the dictionary requires instruction.

Here's an example of a difficult sentence: "When such a spirit breaks forth into complaint, we are aware how great must be the suffering that extorts the murmur." Where is the subject in the example? Again, our own Bible has similar sentence constructions.

How about Matthew 16:18-19 
"

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

"

We need grammar applied to scripture, otherwise we all would need to rely on a pope. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And, ahem, the guidance of the Holy Spirit? No grammar in that.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Ok. There is a verse saying the Holy Spirit will show us the things to come, i.e. prophecy; quote me a verse to in support of grammar showing the same thing.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GP, the verse you are quoting is full of grammar. You can not have the written word without grammar. 

If grammar isn't used the words of that verse can be arranged in any order and it will continue to say the same thing. 

come to things you shew will he and speak he shall that hear shall he whatsoever but ,,,:;,:. himself of speak not shall he for truth all into you guide will he come is truth of spirit the he when howbeit

 

The debate isn't over. Give the men a chance to answer each other and work things out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If grammar isn't used the words of that verse can be arranged in any order and it will continue to say the same thing. 

​Interesting statement.

Then why worry over it? And how come so many different perspectives on a few verses in Daniel can cause such opposing points of view on prophecy?

Edited by Genevanpreacher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And, ahem, the guidance of the Holy Spirit? No grammar in that.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Ok. There is a verse saying the Holy Spirit will show us the things to come, i.e. prophecy; quote me a verse to in support of grammar showing the same thing.

​I addressed the Holy Spirit in the OP above. Which was intended for the other thread but that thread was locked while I was drafting. 'Submit Reply' fails if you attempt to post your draft and the thread becomes locked :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I assume everyone here knows that       3·8+810/(6·2+3)·3^3-11=15   NOT 7,586   1,490.2   1,471  nor even  2.11675

The order in which you do the math MATTERS. Same with color bands on electrical resistors. AND same with sentence structure and parts of speech (in ANY language!)

Edited by OLD fashioned preacher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And, ahem, the guidance of the Holy Spirit? No grammar in that.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Ok. There is a verse saying the Holy Spirit will show us the things to come, i.e. prophecy; quote me a verse to in support of grammar showing the same thing.

​Actually, this verse declares that God the Holy Spirit (1) will guide us "into all truth" and (2) will show us "things to come."  Indeed, the "things to come" that He will show unto us are revealed as a part of the truth into which He will guide us, such that the first element encompasses the second element and such that the second element is only a part of the first element.  Even so, the truth into which God the Holy Spirit will guide us (which includes the truths concerning "things to come") is the truth of God's written Word (the Holy Scriptures), which God the Holy Spirit Himself inspired in a word-for-word and grammatical structure-for-grammatical structure manner.  Therefore, there certainly is "grammar" involved in the Biblical declaration that God the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth (which includes the truths concerning things to come), since that truth has been delivered unto us (under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit) by the means of a written communication.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's an example of a difficult sentence: "When such a spirit breaks forth into complaint, we are aware how great must be the suffering that extorts the murmur." Where is the subject in the example?

Might I be a little less serious for a moment, yet also help to demonstrate the point concerning the need for grammatical analysis and understanding.  Brother "1Timothy115" presented the above sentence and question for the sake of illustration.  For the sake of the illustration, I desire to answer his question, as follows:

The single dependent clause (main clause) of the sentence consists only of three words -- being the word "we" as the subject and the words "are aware" as the verb.  The entire remainder of the sentence presents three dependent clauses, wherein the first two modify the main verb "are aware" and wherein the third dependent clause modifies the second dependent clause.  A grammatical outline of this sentence would look like this --

We are aware
          When such a spirit breaks forth into complaint (indicating when we become aware)
          How great must be the suffering (indicating that of which we become aware)
                    That extorts the murmur (modifying the word "suffering" in order to reveal what kind of suffering)

It also worthy of notice that in each of the three dependent clauses, there is also a "subject-verb" grammatical structure (although not necessarily in that order).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Might I be a little less serious for a moment, yet also help to demonstrate the point concerning the need for grammatical analysis and understanding.  Brother "1Timothy115" presented the above sentence and question for the sake of illustration.  For the sake of the illustration, I desire to answer his question, as follows:

The single dependent clause (main clause) of the sentence consists only of three words -- being the word "we" as the subject and the words "are aware" as the verb.  The entire remainder of the sentence presents three dependent clauses, wherein the first two modify the main verb "are aware" and wherein the third dependent clause modifies the second dependent clause.  A grammatical outline of this sentence would look like this --

We are aware
          When such a spirit breaks forth into complaint (indicating when we become aware)
          How great must be the suffering (indicating that of which we become aware)
                    That extorts the murmur (modifying the word "suffering" in order to reveal what kind of suffering)

It also worthy of notice that in each of the three dependent clauses, there is also a "subject-verb" grammatical structure (although not necessarily in that order).

 

​I knew the subject was in there somewhere :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ian, I understand you may become somewhat surprised, disappointed, even have some frustration for this thread. The thread is discussing the need for knowledge of grammar to understand our Bible. Our 1769 KJV AV was for the most part written in Modern English or Early Modern English. Some sentences are straight forward in our Bible. For others we must resort to helps and a careful analysis of structure and word usage. We depend on the Holy Spirit to assist us in understanding but, sometimes personally, I believe He tells me to use the helps He has already permitted man to accumulate. Other times, I believe God just makes us wait for understanding. 

For example, I have a Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, Second College Edition. Before the first definition is given, there are several topics presented...
Guide to the use of the dictionary pp. ix-xiv (6 pgs.)
Language and the dictionary pp. xv-xxx (16 pgs.)
Etymology pp. xxi-xxii (2 pgs.)
Americanisms pp. xxxiii-xxxiv (2 pgs)
Abbreviations and symbols used in this dictionary pp. xxxv-xxxvi (2 pgs)
This dictionary is for collegiate level use and above, for people who have spent 12 years (at least) in grammar studies.  People with exhaustive education in grammar still require the breakdown of sentences to fully grasp the meaning of words used and understand if they have been blessed or cursed. We can't even use the tools without the ability to decipher the instructions or explanations given by the tools, in this example a dictionary. This is supposed to be my language while even the dictionary requires instruction.

Here's an example of a difficult sentence: "When such a spirit breaks forth into complaint, we are aware how great must be the suffering that extorts the murmur." Where is the subject in the example? Again, our own Bible has similar sentence constructions.

How about Matthew 16:18-19 
"

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

"

We need grammar applied to scripture, otherwise we all would need to rely on a pope. 

​So - what hope is there for the ordinary reader - like Tyndale's plough boy - to understand what he is reading? I seek to teach what the Scriptures actually say.

Besides this, he was conducting services at the nearby parish church of St. Adeline. Soon, his sermons aroused the anger of the church hierarchy, especially when he was found preaching to a crowd outside the Bristol Cathedral. They charged him with "Spreading heresy," and he was summoned before the chancellor of the diocese of Worcester (who was standing in for the Bishop at the time.) He was warned not to preach in public anymore. Even so, Tyndale continued doing this at every opportunity. One day, a priest visiting Little Sodbury openly attacked Tyndale’s beliefs. He replied " If God spare my life, before very long I shall cause a plough boy to know the scriptures better than you do!" This was not an idle boast. Tyndale knew how he was going to put an end to the priests’ evil ways. He was going to translate the Bible into English, so everyone would be able to read the Bible for themselves. Then the priests, who had probably never read it once in their life, would be for it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

​So - what hope is there for the ordinary reader - like Tyndale's plough boy - to understand what he is reading? I seek to teach what the Scriptures actually say.

 

 

Understanding of written language comes through structure, grammar, and punctuation.

Simply stated or done so through technical language, the meaning is always the same - but to suggest that a full technical analysis of the language changes the meaning is just plain wrong.

Your last statement is designed to imply that  your opponent is changing the meaning, but that is just not the case.

You can not deny the importance of grammar, structure, and punctuation in written language - to do so means that you can make any statement mean whatever you like.

As I stated in the last thread before it was hijacked then closed,  if his analysis is wrong then it should be easy to show it - even without technical language - and it is up to you to show it.

To deny the importance of grammar, structure, and punctuation is no valid argument.

Show his error, or accept his analysis - but you can't  just deny the grammar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

​So - what hope is there for the ordinary reader - like Tyndale's plough boy - to understand what he is reading? I seek to teach what the Scriptures actually say.

 

 

Ian,
I know you know the following, its not meant to attack. This is just a reminder...​
There is the blessed hope above all. However, 
Ephesians 4:11-12
"11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"

The little plough boys have the Holy Spirit and the rest of us who are "Teaching them" in response to Jesus' command in Matthew 28:19-20

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes. but little plough boys, as well as shepherds, fishermen & tax collectors have been equipped by the Holy Spirit to become apostles, prophets, evangelists; pastors and teachers

1 Cor. 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes. but little plough boys, as well as shepherds, fishermen & tax collectors have been equipped by the Holy Spirit to become apostles, prophets, evangelists; pastors and teachers

1 Cor. 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

​Eph 4:11 "...and some, pastors and teachers;"

" 1 Corinthians 12:28   And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 
  1 Corinthians 12:29   Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? areall workers of miracles? 
  1 Corinthians 12:30   Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? "    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about 

Matthew 16:18-19 
"18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

We need grammar applied to scripture, otherwise we all would need to rely on a pope. 

Ian:  Grammar alone cannot give an interpretation of that passage. Nor can dictionary definitions. Nor the dictates of a pope. Every individual word is readily understood, but none of the clauses after "Thou art Peter" can be properly understood by grammatical analysis. Spiritual understanding is absolutely necessary, aided by cross references to Acts & the epistles.  

 

Edited by Covenanter
Formatting failed - the new system doesn't work properly. @BroMatt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about 

Matthew 16:18-19 
"18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

We need grammar applied to scripture, otherwise we all would need to rely on a pope. 

Ian:  Grammar alone cannot give an interpretation of that passage. Nor can dictionary definitions. Nor the dictates of a pope. Every individual word is readily understood, but none of the clauses after "Thou art Peter" can be properly understood by grammatical analysis. Spiritual understanding is absolutely necessary, aided by cross references to Acts & the epistles.  

 

Ummmmm - actually, if you include the complete relevant passage the grammar works perfectly.

Partial quotes, misquotes, and missapplication of quotes - such as forcing Tyndale's words the way you have above - confuses the subject rather than clarifying it.

Doesn't matter how you twist it, grammar is essential to understanding written language.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Spirit will never change the meaning of English grammatic context to match a reader's inability to comprehend. God has appointed teachers, preachers to instruct those who cannot.

The Spirit will never change a "yes" to a "no" or a "have" to a "have not" just because we want Him to match a preconceived notion we have bought into. This is the true meaning of "private interpretation". Understand it as it is written or seek the counsel of those that can. Nowhere does God say He will teach us how to read.

Do not run off with notions invented by those who should have sought a teacher but insisted in the flesh to be someone who understands "differently"

Seems every tom, dick and harry wants to pronounce themselves as teachers and prophets and preachers when they have no business doing so. Chief of the boat hit the nails on every head in his last post. VERY few are given by God as Pastors, prophets or teachers.

If you can't figure out what it says yourself, why on earth would you think God wants you to teach it?

Edited by wretched

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

​So - what hope is there for the ordinary reader - like Tyndale's plough boy - to understand what he is reading? I seek to teach what the Scriptures actually say.

 

 

I would like to disagree, respectfully. 

​1st off a plow boy isn't a highly educated Scientist. You have written papers that was published. Plow boys do not have scientific papers published. Can someone write published works and not know anything about verbs and nouns? I think you can match Pastor Scott brain cell for brain cell. Scientists are known for being smart.

2nd a plow boy knows that "thy people" mean thy people. He knows the angel is talking to Daniel about his people. He doesn't try to go back and include the gentiles when Abram was a gentile. Secondly when caught a plow boy doesn't try to Include all of Abraham's descendants. 

3rd, the debate isn't over. If you want to prove your points you can in the debate. There isn't 10 voices against you in there, only one. That will make it easier for you to prove your doctrine. 

You requested the debate many times before Brother Matt could get the forum ready. Now that verse 24 didn't go well, you can rebound with the following verses. I look forward to Scott's reply and where you two will go from there. 

You are a teacher at your church and Scott is pastor at his church, those of us listening are plow boys. 

Edited by MountainChristian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ummmmm - actually, if you include the complete relevant passage the grammar works perfectly.

Partial quotes, misquotes, and missapplication of quotes - such as forcing Tyndale's words the way you have above - confuses the subject rather than clarifying it.

Doesn't matter how you twist it, grammar is essential to understanding written language.

​I completed a study on this passage several years back, albeit to refute a Roman Church member's argument. Understanding came from three sources. 1. The Holy Spirit 2. Training from an IFB course I attended 3. Looking through spiritual, trained, eyes at the grammatical construction. If not for all the above I would have had to acquiesce to the pope's interpretation. I would not have understood the entire discourse was concerning Jesus Christ and HIS Church alone. 

 

A look at Matthew 16 vs dogma.rtf

Edited by 1Timothy115

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's all admit this: God is the Creator of all, correct?  He created language. AND He created ORDER.  Language is orderly. Linguists know this: every language has a certain pattern. Not all languages use the same pattern, BUT they do all use the same parts of speech. And ALL of the statements in that particular language follow that same pattern - whether it is an understood part of speech or specific (as the understood subject in English, such as: Go to the store. The understood subject is "you.")

God is also NOT the author of confusion. Were languages not to follow the proper order in which they are constructed, no one would understand what was being said. Because they do follow the order which God set, language is understandable to the language user.

God knew all this, and there is no mistake in the grammar of scripture. The Holy Spirit certainly can and does make things clear to people. And oftentimes He uses people to do so.

I honestly think the argument against grammar is ridiculous. Because without grammar we have no language, just a bunch of gobbledy-gook words.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online   0 Members, 0 Anonymous, 30 Guests (See full list)

    There are no registered users currently online

Article Categories

About Us

Since 2001, Online Baptist has been an Independent Baptist website, and we exclusively use the King James Version of the Bible. We pride ourselves on a community that uplifts the Lord.

Contact Us

You can contact us using the following link. Contact Us or for questions regarding this website please contact @pastormatt or email James Foley at jfoley@sisqtel.net

Android App

Online Baptist has a custom App for all android users. You can download it from the Google Play store or click the following icon.

×
×
  • Create New...