Revelation chapter 19-22 Study.

[Alan]

Old-Pilgrim,

Concerning your first post. Thank you very much for your comments on the word study of the Greek word:

     "The English word might be from the Latin but in the Scripture it is a Greek word 'arpazwharpazo har-pad'-zo

     from a derivative of 138; to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).'

     The Greek word is used 14 times in the New Testament  Mt 11:12; 13:19; Joh 6:15; 10:12,28-29; Ac 8:39; 23:10; 2Co 12:2,4; 1Th 4:17; Jude 1:23; Re 12:5 "

I am sure that this word study is a blessing to us all. You put a a lot of effort in it and we appreciate it very much. Please keep up the good work.

Concerning your second post. Thank you also for your discussion on the 'tribulation,' that the saints go through and your thoughts on 1 Thessalonians 3:4 and the section on 5:6-9 Very good food for thought and like Job said, "Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat." Job 12:11

It is very encourageing to have some of the brethren who have not posted recently, or, have not commented at all and just viewed the lessons, commenting and discussing.

 

t

[John Young]

Church Rapture discussions always remind me of Ezekiel (who Revelation alludes to by John eating the angel's book. Ezekiel 3, Revelation 10). At the start of Ezekiel's ministry starts the same as Revelation 4 except his ministry is to the rebellious nation of Israel where John's is to the saved in Christ (The church which includes saved Israel). He gets caught up by the spirit (against his will it seems [God stole him away like a thief!  ]) and then goes to his brothers in the town Tel-abib (meaning: ruin mound-beginnings) near the river Chebar (meaning: abundant / joining) for seven days. In the next chapter God tells him each day of his prophetic demonstrations to the rebellious house of Israel will represent one year. I'm not trying to force the passage to indicate something for the Revelation rapture but the similarities are interesting and their trial was written in the bible for our admonition. Here is the passages I'm specifically thinking about:
 

Ezekiel 3:10-16 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears. 11 And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord God; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.12 Then the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the Lord from his place. 13 I heard also the noise of the wings of the living creatures that touched one another, and the noise of the wheels over against them, and a noise of a great rushing.14 So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the Lord was strong upon me. 15 Then I came to them of the captivity at Tel-abib, that dwelt by the river of Chebar, and I sat where they sat, and remained there astonished among them seven days. 16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

Ezekiel 4:4-6 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. 5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. 6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Edited June 24, 2015 by John Young

[Alan]

John,

Thank you very much for your thoughts of Ezekiel and Revelation 10 and the similarities. And, the similarities of how Ezekiel was caught up into heaven (like the Apostle John) and saw visions of God: Ezekiel 1:1 and Revelation 1:1

We do appreciate your posting. Does anyone else have thoughts between the visions, experience of Ezekiel, and any correlation with the Apostle John, the rapture and the visions of the Book of Revelation?

We would also like to give the ladies an opportunity to comment and discuss. Any thoughts ladies?

Alan

[Covenanter]

Alan - 

 I send PMs to avoid disrupting the thread. My “very lengthy .... very lengthy” PM was 860 words after quoting 580 words of your post on page 9 which had a total of 2900 words.

Out of courtesy, I am sending to you, &separately to Invicta & Geneva before I consider going public.

http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23115-revelation-chapter-19-22-study/?do=findComment&comment=407432

I & others were greatly offended by your attitude to the effect that those of us who hold different views to yours are to be viewed as “dogs” & “liars.”

Your post publicly responding to my PM shows serious misunderstanding of what I wrote.

---------------------

As you have responded publicly, I consider it right to post what you responded to - 

From your "Revelation" thread:

Dogs - False Teachers in the Church

“Dogs.” In scripture, dogs and pigs are likened to lost people and to false teachers (heretics), who turned from the “holy commandment delivered unto them.”

........

 

The teaching of heretical doctrines, by false teahers, in our independent, fundamental, Bible believing, Baptist churches, is pernicious. The following false doctrines are used by false teachers to destroy churches:

1. Calvinism is destroying soul-winning efforts. Calvinism, “TULIP,” is a pernicious doctrine.

2. Preterist Theology, Covenant Theology, Replacement Theology, a-millennialism, and a belief in a post-tribulation rapture, are destroying the hope of the soon return of Christ. And, is destroying the belief in the literal one thousand year of Christ and casting doubt on the veracity of the Book of Revelation. All of the above, ‘Theologies,’ are pernicious theologies.

3. In addition to the destroying the belief in the literal 1000 year reign of Christ, the Preterist, Covenant Theology, and Replacement Theology teachers are also destroying the belief in the literal fulfillment Covenants of God, the Promises of God, and the prophetic prophesies of the Old Testament prophets. They are, ‘pernicious’ theological teachers.

4. The new corrupt versions of the scriptures are destroying the very foundation of our faith and has cast doubt in the preservation of the word of God. Every new version, starting with the Revised Version of 1881 are, ‘pernicious’ versions.

.......

“and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” Physical

The world is full of liars. And, God will punish every one of them.

“A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.” Proverbs 19:5

“A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.” Proverbs 19:9

“and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” Spiritual

All false doctrines, from all of the false teachers, from all of the false religions, are lies. A half-truth is designed to deceive. A half-truth, a partial truth, a twisting of the truth, a verse taken out of context, and other forms of deceit are lies.

Calvinism “TULIP” are lies, Covenant and Replacement Theology are partial truths and bits of scripture designed to deceive. The Jehovah’s Witnesses are liars. Hell is a real place and so is heaven. Infant baptism is a lie, starting from Revised Version of 1881 to the present day, all of the new versions of the scriptures contain lies of some sort, half-truths, and partial truths and the twisting of the truth. The doctrine of a-millennialism is a lie. The notion that the book of Revelation is symbolic, figurative, or allegorical, are all lies. The Jehovah Witness’s belief that Jesus came in 1914 is a lie.

Need I go on?

“A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.” Proverbs 19:5

“A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.” Proverbs 19:9

Conclusion

I will end this with the admonition that Paul the Apostle made to the saints in Ephesus. “And put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor: for we are members one of another.” Ephesians 4:24 and 25 

If any of the brethren are caught up in the religious lies of any of the false doctrines listed above I admonish you to cease from believing these doctrinal lies and learn the truth.

 

----------------------------------------

You are becoming an expert in false - railing - accusations against anyone who does not accept your teaching. That quote is the conclusion of a very offensive post, pretending to be an exposition of Scripture, while accusing me & others, not "merely" of teaching false doctrine - lies - but of being "dogs" - totally evil, & numbered with the ungodly: For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 

I'll try to answer courteously, recognising that you are a Christian brother in need of guidance.

What is the basis of the "truth" that you teach? You think it to be the KJV Scriptures, but do you know what the translators believed & taught? All believed  infant baptism, a last day second coming; covenant theology; & predestination. All subscribed to the  39 articles; which teach:

"IV Christ did truly rise again from death, and took again his body, with flesh, bones, and all things appertaining to the perfection of Man's nature; wherewith he ascended into Heaven, and there sitteth, until he return to judge all Men at the last day."

"VII The Old Testament is not contrary to the New: for both in the Old and New Testament everlasting life is offered to Mankind by Christ, who is the only Mediator between God and Man, being both God and Man. Wherefore there are not to be heard, which feign that the old Fathers did look only for transitory promises. Although the Law given from God by Moses, as touching Ceremonies and Rites, do not bind Christian men, nor the Civil precepts thereof ought of necessity to be received in any commonwealth; yet, notwithstanding, no Christian man whatsoever is free from the obedience of the Commandments which are called Moral.

"XVII Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity." 

"XXVII Baptism is not only a sign of profession, and mark of difference, whereby Christian men are discerned from others that be not christened, but is also a sign of Regeneration or new Birth, whereby, as by an instrument, they that receive Baptism rightly are grafted into the Church; the promises of the forgiveness of sin, and of our adoption to be the sons of God by the Holy Ghost, are visibly signed and sealed; Faith is confirmed, and Grace increased by virtue of prayer unto God. The Baptism of young Children is in any wise to be retained in the Church, as most agreeable with the institution of Christ."

Were these godly men "dogs" in your opinion, or did they simply not understand what they were translating? 

I think you will find also that earlier translators & reformers - Wycliffe, Tyndale & others, & translators of the Geneva Bible, believed substantially what was systematized in the 39 articles. 

I think you will also find, if you research church history & doctrine, that the dispensationalist  "end times" doctrines you teach are not held by Bible believing Gospel preachers (baptist or paedobaptist, & all KJV) before they were popularised by the widespread use of the Scofield Bible. The comments on Rev. 20 in Matthew Henry's Commentary (around 1700) are of interest. 

You will, of course, find various teachings about the millennium down the ages. The Jewish Encyclopaedia shows that the concept is Jewish apocryphal & pre-Christian, & refers to early Christian teaching.

I would be VERY surprised if you find anything resembling what you claim is taught in "our independent, fundamental, Bible believing, Baptist churches" in anything earlier than the 19th century, & by sound Bible believing teachers, Baptist or other. 

I think in fact you would find that Scofield is your authoritative source, as, I understand, his early 20th century "Bible" was free issue as a "Fundamentalist" commentary in the Bible Colleges at a time when false doctrine, evolution & modernism were taking hold in the denominations. It was issued to combat modernism.  While it may not now be referred to as the standard, & you may not use it, it was e.g. the standard in the university Christian Union in my days - the 50s. Thus 3 generations of Bible teachers have been subjected to its influence, & its teaching is accepted as the "truth." 

I'll stop there. I'd like to draw in Geneva & Invicta, who you have also denounced as "dogs." 

In Jesus service,

Ian

[Alan]

Covenanter,

For the last time, I am not going to get in a debate with your above post. 

Alan 

[Rebecca]

I think the Ezekiel/John comparison is interesting. I've not compared the two before, so I'm curious if John saw the same "wheels" as Ezekiel did and chose to describe other things, or didn't see them. I know everything John described was directly related to prophecies and such, but I don't think everything Ezekiel described was related to anything or not? It seems Ezekiel was just so fascinated by the things he saw and so described them in great detail, but didn't really have a lot of correlation to the prophecies? Or did I miss it?

[Covenanter]

Covenanter,

For the last time, I am not going to get in a debate with your above post. 

Alan 

I don't expect a debate, but an apology. Your post accused those brethren on the forum who disagree with your interpretation of being dogs & liars. 

I must therefore treat you as a heathen publican - a sinner who needs the Gospel of repentance & faith in Jesus. 

[Covenanter]

I think the Ezekiel/John comparison is interesting. I've not compared the two before, so I'm curious if John saw the same "wheels" as Ezekiel did and chose to describe other things, or didn't see them. I know everything John described was directly related to prophecies and such, but I don't think everything Ezekiel described was related to anything or not? It seems Ezekiel was just so fascinated by the things he saw and so described them in great detail, but didn't really have a lot of correlation to the prophecies? Or did I miss it?

As we study Revelation it is helpful to look up the cross-references in the OT. There are similarities & differences - the four horsemen have 2 references in Zechariah, the sealing of the 144,000 has a reference in Ezekiel, hiding in the rocks & mountains in Isaiah & Luke, the plague of locusts in Joel. 

[Alan]

Covenanter,

If I am a heathen publican. Why are you on this post listening to the instruction of a heathen publican? To listen to a heathen publican is to disobey the wisdom of King Solomon, "Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causest to err from the words of knowledge." Proverbs 19:27. I preceive that you are somewhat disingenuous.

Therefore, I have come to the only reason why you are on this post is to derail my instruction, belittle the study, and disrupt the fine spirit that the other brethren have developed on this thread.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Alan
grammer

[Alan]

Rebecca,

John may or may have not seen the wheels spoken of by Ezekiel. The visions of Ezekiel may or may not have much prophetic insight. 

[Alan]

Revelation 22:16 & 17, “Come.”

Verse 16, “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Verse 17, “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

“I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.”

The angel that the Lord Jesus sent has been guiding the Apostle John (Revelation 1:1; 21:9, 22:1 and 22:8) and is now giving John some last instructions to the church. Please take careful notice that the angel specifically states that these admonitions are to, “the churches.” The book of Revelation is given to the churches to unveil the future events of the history of the world, the church, the nation of Israel and eternity.

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.” Revelation 1:1 the events in the book of Revelation are literal, to be fulfilled in the future and will soon come to pass. The teaching that the events of the Book of Revelation are symbolic, figurative, allegorical, or, is a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. is in error and heretical.

Characteristics of the Lord Jesus

“I am the root...”

Isaiah 11:1, “And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his root.” And, “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign for the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.” Isaiah 11:10 The apostle Paul quoted Isiah 11:10 in Romans 15:12, “And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.”

Fruit is from the Root

A tree bears fruit due to the root. “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.” John 15:4

The saint that desires to bear fruit should abide in Christ. This involves a personal relationship with the Lord. The Lord Jesus desires us to walk with Him now and in eternity.

“... and the offspring of David...”

“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.” Matthew 1:1

All of the blessings of the Gentiles stem from the Root, and Offspring, of David: the Jewish Race.

The Lord Jesus Christ is trying to show us Gentiles that all of our spiritual, eternal, and physical blessings come from the nation of Israel.

Please study Romans 11:16-25

“... and the bright and morning star.”

The Apostle Peter wrote, “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.” 2 Peter 1:19

The Lord Jesus gives the churches light concerning, “a more sure word of prophecy.” The world, and the religions of the world, are in spiritual darkness concerning the prophetic events of the future. The saint that is taught by the Holy Spirit, and has the Bible as its final authority, has light to see the prophetic events that are written in the Book of Revelation. The Book of Revelation is unsealed.

Spiritual Darkness concerning prophetic Events

“And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. “ Isaiah 29:11 and 12

The world, the religions of the world, and the saint who does not walk close to the Lord, will remain in spiritual darkness concerning the prophetic events in the Book of Revelation.

I will use the example of the spiritual darkness of the Roman Catholic Church and those brethren who follow their teachings of future events: particularly a-millennialism.

To an a-millenialist, the book of Revelation is a sealed book. The events are not future; they took place in the past and were fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D. They cannot see the rapture of the Church, the 7 Year Tribulation period, the 1,000 year Reign of Christ, the Restoration of the nation of Israel as foretold by the prophets. To these lost religious folks, and to the brethren who accept their darkened doctrine, the Book of Revelation is sealed.

“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.”

God, in every age, and in every country, wants all men to make the decision to come, by faith, with a repentant heart, to Jesus for salvation. “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9

God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all in agreement that all men should come to Jesus for the eternal salvation of their soul.

Now, in these last words in the Book of Revelation, The Bride of Christ, the Church of the Redeemed, should tell everybody in every country to come to Jesus.

For notes on the Bride of Christ please see Revelation 19:7-9. Here is that link: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23115-revelation-chapter-19-22-study/?page=1

The Great Commission, Matthew 28:18-20, is to be followed until the day of the return of the Lord Jesus in the skies to take us home.

“And let him that heareth say, Come.”

Again, this is a reference to the churches. “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” Revelation 3:21 Every saint within the church walls should be telling people to come to Jesus: a soul-winner. If you are walking with Jesus, if you are abiding in Him, you will be telling others to come to Jesus for salvation.

“And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

Please review that notes on Revelation 21:6. Here is the link for that study.

http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23115-revelation-chapter-19-22-study/?page=4

Salvation is free to whosoever wants to be saved. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

Calvinism – False Doctrine

The Calvinistic teaching of TULIP, specifically, “Limited Atonement,”  is a total and complete falsehood. It is a repugnant lie. Please review my previous notes on this link: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23115-revelation-chapter-19-22-study/?page=4

Edited June 25, 2015 by Alan
grammer spelling

[Covenanter]

Covenanter,

If I am a heathen publican. Why are you on this post listening to the instruction of a heathen publican? To listen to a heathen publican is to disobey the wisdom of King Solomon, "Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causest to err from the words of knowledge." Proverbs 19:27. I preceive that you are somewhat disingenuous.

Therefore, I have come to the only reason why you are on this post is to derail my instruction, belittle the study, and disrupt the fine spirit that the other brethren have developed on this thread.

I'm answering other contributors, NOT yours.

[Alan]

John,

I am glad that you enjoyed the lesson on Revelation 22:16 & 17. We appreciate your fine spirit. 

[Genevanpreacher]

 

Spiritual Darkness concerning prophetic Events

“And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. “ Isaiah 29:11 and 12

The world, the religions of the world, and the saint who does not walk close to the Lord, will remain in spiritual darkness concerning the prophetic events in the Book of Revelation.

I will use the example of the spiritual darkness of the Roman Catholic Church and those brethren who follow their teachings of future events: particularly a-millennialism.

To an a-millenialist, the book of Revelation is a sealed book. The events are not future; they took place in the past and were fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D. They cannot see the rapture of the Church, the 7 Year Tribulation period, the 1,000 year Reign of Christ, the Restoration of the nation of Israel as foretold by the prophets. To these lost religious folks, and to the brethren who accept their darkened doctrine, the Book of Revelation is sealed.

 

 That's about enough there brother!

First we are dogs, and now you come right out and call us LOST?

That is quite offensive and I am reporting you! Shame!

First off, the book has never been sealed to the saved of God. The only 'saved' ones that the book is sealed to are the one's that have to use 'doctrines of men' to 'prove' their false view and lift up a people above the saved children of the Lord God, called Christians.

God is no respector of persons, it says that in the book! All saved are equal. And there is no difference between a Jew or Gentile. All the saved are the children of God.

And that is what this 'disagreeing' between us is all on, whether God has two brides or not, and the second bride is inferior to the first in your view.

God is not a polygynist! (you better look that one up.)

[Genevanpreacher]

13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.