The Cross And How Jews Perceive It: Sharing Messiah With The Jewish People

No Nicolaitans · March 2, 2015

First off, he did, and is still 'building his church'. And he started it with the foundation of the Prophets

I believe that this is what you're referring to?

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

I can see why you would attribute "prophets" as being the Old Testament prophets; thereby, including them in the church. However, in the very next chapter of Ephesians, we find this...

Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Paul wasn't referring to the Old Testament prophets; he was referring to the prophets who were alive (now) at the time of his writing.

John81 · March 3, 2015

I believe that this is what you're referring to?
Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
I can see why you would attribute "prophets" as being the Old Testament prophets; thereby, including them in the church. However, in the very next chapter of Ephesians, we find this...
Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Paul wasn't referring to the Old Testament prophets; he was referring to the prophets who were alive (now) at the time of his writing.

Perhaps we could call one of the hotlines to a prophetic ministry and see what a contemporary prophet has to say on the matter.

Genevanpreacher · March 3, 2015

I believe that this is what you're referring to?
Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
I can see why you would attribute "prophets" as being the Old Testament prophets; thereby, including them in the church. However, in the very next chapter of Ephesians, we find this...
Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Paul wasn't referring to the Old Testament prophets; he was referring to the prophets who were alive (now) at the time of his writing.

You are using a bit of creative license with this thinking.

John81 · March 3, 2015

You are using a bit of creative license with this thinking.

It's the law! You have to have a license for everything so the government can get your money.

Genevanpreacher · March 3, 2015

I believe that this is what you're referring to?
Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Actually:

Matthew 2:23 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context: And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Matthew 5:12 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 5:17 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 7:12 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 11:13 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context: For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Matthew 16:14 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context: And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Matthew 22:40 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

No Nicolaitans · March 3, 2015

You are using a bit of creative license with this thinking.

No, it's called applying context to what's written. The context isn't referring to Old Testament prophets; it's referring to those who were alive at the time of the writing of Ephesians...hence the "now" in Ephesians 3:5.

Actually:

Matthew 2:23 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context
And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Matthew 5:12 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 5:17 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 7:12 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 11:13 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Matthew 16:14 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Matthew 22:40 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Don't read this as though I'm being sarcastic, because I'm not. Can you not see the context of those verses? Do you not see how often "the law" is also mentioned in those verses? Is "the law" also part of the church?

The prophets AND the law foretold and pointed to Christ. Christ fulfilled (and will fulfill) what was foretold. While I believe beyond any doubt that God's true prophets were saved, there is nothing in the verses that you've given above or any other scripture that I've seen indicating that the Old Testament prophets were part of the church. The church was future according to the Lord Jesus Christ's own words.

Look at the order...

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Jesus Christ - the chief cornerstone...it began with him, and without him, it wouldn't exist.
apostles - mentioned before prophets.
prophets - mentioned after apostles.

If we're talking about a foundation, a literal foundation has to be laid correctly. You can't put a part of a literal foundation in the wrong order or the foundation will fail...as will the building it supports. Christ is the most important part...the chief cornerstone. That's where a literal foundation starts too...at the cornerstone.

If I dig a footing...lay a cornerstone...then begin to build the rest of the foundation...

I can't put the mortar before the block...or the rebar before the block...or the block first, then cover it with mortar, then lay rebar on top of that...no, I have to follow an order to have a firm foundation.

In our scriptural foundation, Christ is the most important part...the chief cornerstone. Next mentioned is the apostles...THEN prophets are mentioned. The Old Testament prophets came BEFORE the apostles, yet prophets are mentioned after the apostles in the foundation. That's because the context of being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets are referring to prophets alive at the time of Paul's writing...not Old Testament prophets.

Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Genevanpreacher · March 3, 2015

The prophets AND the law foretold and pointed to Christ. Christ fulfilled (and will fulfill) what was foretold. While I believe beyond any doubt that God's true prophets were saved, there is nothing in the verses that you've given above or any other scripture that I've seen indicating that the Old Testament prophets were part of the church. The church was future according to the Lord Jesus Christ's own words. [in this discussion I am not saying they are.]
Look at the order...
Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; [yes! look at the order.]
Jesus Christ - the chief cornerstone...it began with him, and without him, it wouldn't exist.
apostles - mentioned before prophets.
prophets - mentioned after apostles.
If we're talking about a foundation, a literal foundation has to be laid correctly. You can't put a part of a literal foundation in the wrong order or the foundation will fail...as will the building it supports. Christ is the most important part...the chief cornerstone.[which goes on top of the foundation.] That's where a literal foundation starts too...at the cornerstone.
[I was a carpenter for 25 years, so I know a bit about laying block for a structure (cornerstone) to be built upon a foundation.]
If I dig a footing...lay a cornerstone...then begin to build the rest of the foundation...[your footer is the foundation for the cornerstone.]
I can't put the mortar before the block...or the rebar before the block...or the block first, then cover it with mortar, then lay rebar on top of that...no, I have to follow an order to have a firm foundation. [exactly!]

Um, the cornerstone is usually set on something we would call the foundation. Some a footer. The building aspect of your thoughtline is not correct.

Now the verse saying that Christ is the foundation is a good one to use, but a cornerstone was placed on something. The Law was our school master till Christ came, hence the foundation.

No Nicolaitans · March 3, 2015

Um, the cornerstone is usually set on something we would call the foundation. Some a footer. The building aspect of your thoughtline is not correct.
Now the verse saying that Christ is the foundation is a good one to use, but a cornerstone was placed on something. The Law was our school master till Christ came, hence the foundation.

Okay...

No Nicolaitans · March 3, 2015

[I was a carpenter for 25 years, so I know a bit about laying block for a structure (cornerstone) to be built upon a foundation.]

...you might want to investigate what a cornerstone was (and its place in a foundation) in biblical times.

DaveW · March 4, 2015

Where I am we don't use any cornerstone, except in a ceremonial sense.

Our "cornerstones" are often around eye level, well above the "foundation" and several courses up in the wall.

Just because you don't understand what a biblical cornerstone is doesn't negate the truth.

Biblically, the foundation is based off the cornerstone and the whole building - beginning with the foundation - is referenced to that point.

The cornerstone is the first thing placed, in a biblical sense.

MountainChristian · March 4, 2015

The foundation is the corner stone, they didn't have concrete. Concrete is man-made corner stone. When you build the forms for the concrete it must be started at the corners so the foundation is square.

Genevanpreacher · March 4, 2015

...you might want to investigate what a cornerstone was (and its place in a foundation) in biblical times.

How about the Lord himself? Matthew 7 says -

²⁴ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

²⁵ And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

²⁶ And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

²⁷ And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

You will notice that a building of any sort has a foundation, the same now as in the 'Bible times'.

The scriptures are 'for' our day, and have nothing 'outdated' in them that can't be seen.

How do you think we 'got the idea' of how to build a proper 'building'?

Experience - from a thousand generations. [And that happens to go way back in 'bible times'.]

A house, for example, does have a 'cornerstone'. The first block laid to start the base of our structure

commonly called a foundation. But that base needs to be placed upon something 'stable' to ensure

that the structure placed upon the base will stand the 'test of time' and endure 'to the end'.

The house includes the 'cornerstone', and the firm 'rock' that it is placed upon confirms that stableness.

If you build a 'foundation' upon sand, there is no way it will stand.

Looking at the Lord's words here you will also observe that he said his words are what make that foundation the 'rock'.

"whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them - built his house upon a rock"

"every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not - built his house upon the sand"

And I believe the scriptures clearly teach that the O.T. books are the foundation to which God himself placed

the 'cornerstone' of the Christ of God, Jesus, the Son of God, and our Savior.

¹⁵ He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

¹⁶ And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

¹⁷ And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

¹⁸ And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

If the Lord Jesus did not fulfill all that the scriptures said of him, he would not be the 'rock'.

The 'cornerstone' needed to be placed upon the foundation of the 'prophets' and what they said about the coming Messiah.

Examples?

Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

Matthew 2:15: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Matthew 2:17: Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
Matthew 2:23: And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Matthew 4:14: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Matthew 5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 8:17: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Matthew 12:17: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Matthew 13:14: And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:; Matthew 13:35; That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.; Matthew 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
Matthew 24:34: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Matthew 26:54: But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Matthew 26:56: But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Matthew 27:9: Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
Matthew 27:35: And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Genevanpreacher · March 4, 2015

The foundation is the corner stone, they didn't have concrete. Concrete is man-made corner stone. When you build the forms for the concrete it must be started at the corners so the foundation is square.

No.

The block/cornerstone was to be squared, not the footer/concrete it was placed upon,

or as the scriptures teach, the 'rock'. (see above post, where the Lord says a wise man builds his house upon.)

No Nicolaitans · March 4, 2015

Okay...but you're missing out on a lot of things by not seeing how things were done during the time when the Bible was written...aka - Bible times. Some things were done much differently (back in Bible times), and without knowing or understanding that, one will miss a deeper meaning or truth. Same as with some of the wording in the Bible...if you apply modern-day meanings to them, you get the wrong meaning and message.

Bible times, Bible times, Bible times...

Looking at the Lord's words here you will also observe that he said his words are what make that foundation the 'rock'.
"whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them - built his house upon a rock"
"every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not - built his house upon the sand"

No...that's not what the Lord Jesus Christ said. You left out parts of those verses.

Matthew 7:24 and 26
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

The Lord is comparing those who hear and obey (his sayings) to a wise man who builds his house upon a rock...and a foolish man who builds a house upon the sand. That says nothing of what you stated that it says.

Both the wise and the foolish men heard his sayings...

...the difference is that the wise heard AND obeyed; the foolish heard but DIDN'T obey. He's not saying that his words are the foundation or the rock...he's saying that a man who hears and obeys his sayings is wise and, that man (not Christ's sayings) is LIKE a man who builds upon a rock.

Bible times, Bible times, Bible times...

Genevanpreacher · March 5, 2015

Okay...but you're missing out on a lot of things by not seeing how things were done during the time when the Bible was written...aka - Bible times. Some things were done much differently (back in Bible times), and without knowing or understanding that, one will miss a deeper meaning or truth. Same as with some of the wording in the Bible...if you apply modern-day meanings to them, you get the wrong meaning and message.
Bible times, Bible times, Bible times...
No...that's not what the Lord Jesus Christ said. You left out parts of those verses.
Matthew 7:24 and 26
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

The Lord is comparing those who hear and obey (his sayings) to a wise man who builds his house upon a rock...and a foolish man who builds a house upon the sand. That says nothing of what you stated that it says.
Both the wise and the foolish men heard his sayings...
...the difference is that the wise heard AND obeyed; the foolish heard but DIDN'T obey. He's not saying that his words are the foundation or the rock...he's saying that a man who hears and obeys his sayings is wise and, that man (not Christ's sayings) is LIKE a man who builds upon a rock.
Bible times, Bible times, Bible times...

You obviously are not seeing what I say, or mean. I know what he is referring to. I was just pointing out he used a proper mode of building in his teaching that was commonly known IN biblical times.

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