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The Cross And How Jews Perceive It: Sharing Messiah With The Jewish People


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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Sir, that was part of the Jew's prOBlem in why they rejected the Lord Jesus Christ. They didn't worship the Godhead; they only believed in (and worshiped) one single God...

 

The Old Testament does refer to the Godhead...just as it refers to the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection; however, the Jews didn't see it...and they still don't see it today.

 

Only those who lived in disbelief worshiped what you say.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

No, The Church is not the Congregation of believers in the Old Testament.  Using different terminology isn't going to change the facts that the Church, the BODY OF CHRIST did not begin before Pentecost.  That is NOT limiting the Church to just the NT. because there was NO Church in the OT.

 

In Matthew 16:18, Jesus said "I WILL BUILD my Church...."  future tense.  This means that Christ's building of His Body was yet future.

The Apostle Paul called the Church a  mystery, did he not? (Ephesians 3:1-11)

 

The nation of Israel was not, and has never been the Body of Christ....either in the OT or the NT.  Thay are two separate and distinct entities throughout Scriptures.

Therefore, the conclusion of the matter of the nation of Israel existing as the Church in the OT is erroneous and what you are teaching is indeed Replacement Theology.

 

You are just mixed up in the commonly taught 'view' of 'Jews are special,

no matter what their spiritual condition' type of hype, which is not scriptural,

and I refuse to continue this hopeless discussion based upon other people

'opinions', and not on what is taught in the scriptures.

 

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
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You are just mixed up in the commonly taught 'view' of 'Jews are special,

no matter what their spiritual condition' type of hype, which is not scriptural,

and I refuse to continue this hopeless discussion based upon other people

'opinions', and not on what is taught in the scriptures.

 

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

Genevanpreacher,

 

I am not the one who is "mixed up".  The Jews (and the nation of Israel) are God's chosen people.  This is what God's Word says:

Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
Deuteronomy 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Deuteronomy 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

 

God did judge, is judging, and will judge His chosen people (the Jews and the nation of Israel) for their disOBedience to His commandments and their rejection of Christ....AND He will also judge those "that hate him (the Jew) to their face, to destroy them: (the Jews)..."   (Deuteronomy 7:10)  

 

Therefore your statement:
 

 

the commonly taught 'view' of 'Jews are special, no matter what their spiritual condition'

is in error.

 

Remember, you are the one who chose to post what you did in this thread, so your refusal not to continue posting in this thread is also your choice. So be it.

 

BTW, being a Jew, I take offense at your statement about the Jews.  

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Regardless of one's belief, the fact is...the Jews are a special people; they are God's chosen people. Despite their "spiritual condition", God loves them. God made promises the THEM specifically. However, there appears to be a quandary...

 

1. God has broken (or will break) his promises to Israel.

a- Therefore, God is a liar.

b- Therefore, God is a sinner.

 

2. God's promises to Israel weren't actually to Israel; they were to the church.

a- Therefore, the land promised to Israel (and all of the blessings associated therewith) actually belongs to me.

b- However, which tribe do I belong to? I need to know so that I will live in the appropriate section of the land.

c- When have 10 men grabbed my skirt to go with me to Jerusalem because they heard the Lord was with me (since I'm a Jew)?

d- However, if this were true (the church is Israel), that would still make God a liar and a sinner since all of the physical blessings promised to Israel haven't happened in my life...since I'm a Jew.

 

3. God is God; he is holy and righteous. Therefore, he can't lie; as such, his is not a sinner, and he will keep his promises that he made specifically to the Jews.

a- Therefore, he will fulfil every promise that he made to Israel...down to the last jot and tittle. 

b- Israel is loved by God despite their "spiritual condition"...as is all of mankind by the way.

 

Why is it so hard to accept that God made promises to Israel that were meant for Israel and Israel alone? Why is there even a discussion about this? God made promises...to Israel. He's God, and God doesn't lie. He can keep a promise that he made to Israel just as easily as he can keep the promise that "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". 

 

God said that he would bring Israel back into the land...a promise that wasn't contingent upon their "spiritual condition" by the way. He just said that he would do it. As a matter of fact, he also said that it would be AFTER they were back in the land...that THEN he would give them a new heart and be their God forever. 

 

God doesn't need an "out" (the church is Israel) in order to fulfil his word or promises. He's God, and he can do anything and everything that he said he could (and would) do...exactly the way he said that he would do it.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Genevanpreacher,

 

I am not the one who is "mixed up".  The Jews (and the nation of Israel) are God's chosen people.  This is what God's Word says:
 

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Deuteronomy 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

 

God did judge, is judging, and will judge His chosen people (the Jews and the nation of Israel) for their disOBedience to His commandments and their rejection of Christ....AND He will also judge those "that hate him (the Jew) to their face, to destroy them: (the Jews)..."   (Deuteronomy 7:10)  

 

BTW, being a Jew, I take offense at your statement about the Jews.  

 

I mean no offense to you as a Christian.

If you want to push your Jewry to the front of the class, that's your prOBlem, 

and it is a prOBlem, as touching the doctrines of who is who in the scriptures.

 

God's promises were to those in this verse - (your quote)

 

"Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"

 

And God was always in reference to those who loved him.

 

Acts 10 - 

 

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

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Regardless of one's belief, the fact is...the Jews are a special people; they are God's chosen people. Despite their "spiritual condition", God loves them. God made promises the THEM specifically. However, there appears to be a quandary...

1. God has broken (or will break) his promises to Israel.

a- Therefore, God is a liar.

b- Therefore, God is a sinner.


2. God's promises to Israel weren't actually to Israel; they were to the church.

a- Therefore, the land promised to Israel (and all of the blessings associated therewith) actually belongs to me.

b- However, which tribe do I belong to? I need to know so that I will live in the appropriate section of the land.

c- When have 10 men grabbed my skirt to go with me to Jerusalem because they heard the Lord was with me (since I'm a Jew)?

d- However, if this were true (the church is Israel), that would still make God a liar and a sinner since all of the physical blessings promised to Israel haven't happened in my life...since I'm a Jew.


3. God is God; he is holy and righteous. Therefore, he can't lie; as such, his is not a sinner, and he will keep his promises that he made specifically to the Jews.

a- Therefore, he will fulfil every promise that he made to Israel...down to the last jot and tittle.

b- Israel is loved by God despite their "spiritual condition"...as is all of mankind by the way.


Why is it so hard to accept that God made promises to Israel that were meant for Israel and Israel alone? Why is there even a discussion about this? God made promises...to Israel. He's God, and God doesn't lie. He can keep a promise that he made to Israel just as easily as he can keep the promise that "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".

God said that he would bring Israel back into the land...a promise that wasn't contingent upon their "spiritual condition" by the way. He just said that he would do it. As a matter of fact, he also said that it would be AFTER they were back in the land...that THEN he would give them a new heart and be their God forever.

God doesn't need an "out" (the church is Israel) in order to fulfil his word or promises. He's God, and he can do anything and everything that he said he could (and would) do...exactly the way he said that he would do it.

The system won't allow me to like this post more than once. ;)
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We were graft in the body of believers (branches of the true vine). We all, as believers in God (in Spirit in the O.T.), and the Lord Jesus (God in flesh in the N.T.)

and he made of 'two', one body of believers.

 

It's not that Israel was 'something else' in the O.T., true believers were always the church, they just enlarged their 'nationality' to include us as gentile believers in Jesus as God in human form.

 

Acts 7 -

38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

 

I don't see why that is so hard to see.

 

 

As my mum used to say, "There is none do deaf as those who won't hear and none so blind as those who won't see."

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I am not the one who is "mixed up".  The Jews (and the nation of Israel) are God's chosen people.  
 

 

The nation of Israel, (commonly referred to as the Jews), were a special conduit that the Lord used, and that for one purpose, to give the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ to the world.

The blessings upon them as an OBedient people were only up to when the Lord had accomplished his purpose in them. No longer.

For as we all know - there is neither Jew nor Gentile anymore, anyone can be a child of Abraham, and that by the faith of Abraham.

Therefore all are included in the 'Israel' that will be saved, for we know the scripture says - in Romans 9-

 

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

You can't deny the word of God.

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Invicta, I'm not sure where you stand on this "the church is Israel" thing. Therefore, I'm not sure how to respond. The point of my post was to show that it would appear that one can pick and choose when Israel is "the church" or when Israel is "Israel". Israel apparently is only "the church" when it benefits "the church". However, when it's a detriment to "the church", then Israel is actually "Israel"?  :scratchchin:

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Israel means Israel and the Church means the Church!

 

NN:  You are correct on all the points you posted!

 

Genevanpreacher, what happened to your choice of refusing to post in this discussion?

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One could say praying for the peace of Jerusalem. Could be simply be accomplished by praying "Thy Kingdom come. Thy Will be done". Christians have been praying this for years. I see all thats taking place of course is composed of a lot of peoples and things.

For my interest is in that all of it is more about the Kingdom of Heaven. More so than it is about the Jews, Christians or anything else.

There are still earthly concerns. I think Geneva pointed that out with "In Issac shall they seed be called"

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

In which all nations are blessed thru Abraham. This to me speaks of Christ.

I'm not sure what this discussion is about. I am no Bible scholar. I will simply preach Christ crucified. Which should benifit everyone I preach it to hopefully.

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'No Nicolaitans' is correct in his proper quotation of the words of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 16:18 in this thread. The words of the Lord Jesus is very clear and no amount of 'clarification' is needed.

 

Furthermore, 'No Nicolaitans' is correct in his fine exposition of Romans 11:25-28 and in his 'rightly dividing the scriptures.' Only a true bible Believer, an independent Baptist that is true to the fundamentals of the faith, can do such a fine exposition of Romans 11:25-28 One of the prOBlems, in my estimation, is that some of the brethren are not solid independent fundamental Baptists and, on occasion, are incorrectly dividing the scriptures.

 

As 'No Nicolaitans' further pointed out, we need to read the rest of Romans 11 to fully discover that the Gentiles in the body of Christ are only 'grafted' into the tree of 'Israel.' The 'Tree,' the elect sons of Israel, is still alive and not forgotten by God. And, that the 'gifts and calling of God are without repentance.' Any fruit farmer can tell you without the tree the grafted branch will die and that all of the nourishment for the growth of the branch is in the tree; not the branch.

 

All of us Gentiles who have been grafted in into the 'tree' need to heed the admonition of Paul the Apostle and help the Jewish race (whether saved or lost), physically, as the Jewish race (whether lost or saved), has helped us spiritually, Romans 15:27 Every Christian is a debtor to the Jewish race.

 

God will once again use the literal sons of Israel to fulfull His perfect and complete will in the prophetic years ahead as recorded, literally, in the Book of Revelation. 

 

Thank you brother! Amen! Praise the Lord!

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Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

WILL build...future tense.

 

The Lord Jesus Christ didn't say, "I will continue building my church". He didn't say, "I will finish building the church that I started building in the Old Testament." 

 

 

 

No, the blessings upon them as an OBedient people were only up to when they were disOBedient, and the punishment was for them to be driven from the land (among other physical punishments). 

 

 

 

Sir, you need to read the whole chapter. You might then check Romans 11...especially this part...

 

Romans 11:25-28

25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from JacOB:

27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

 

So if the church is Israel, then according to Romans 11:26...after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, all Israel of the church will be saved? And the Deliverer shall turn away ungodliness from JacOB the church? And then in verse 27, God will take away their the church's sins? And in verse 28, they the church are enemies for the gospel's sake, but they the church are beloved for the father's sake (even though they are enemies to the gospel)?

 

Or...does Israel mean Israel, and the church means the church?

 

First off, he did, and is still 'building his church'. And he started it with the foundation of the Prophets

and 'preachers of old' who preached a reality of love from God the Father to his children whom he knew, and knows will love him in belief.
 

Second, you missed the first 24 verses of chapter 11 somewhere, where he  describes exactly what I have said.

All Israel are the conglomeration of the Israelites of blood lineage that are saved, and the faithful children of Abraham, in the Gentiles that are saved, through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

Here -

 

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

Then here -

 

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

 

Here -

 

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in hisgoodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved:

 

Because we all make up the olive tree that is called the saved born again Church of the Living God!!!

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The Bible does teach that there is neither Jew nor Greek...that we are all one...all children of God through faith. It does teach that as people of faith, we are heirs according to the promise made to Abraham and his seed (Christ).

 

However, what are we heirs of? What promise do we (as Gentiles) inherit because we are now "Abraham's seed"? It's very simple; the Bible clearly tells us what we have inherited...

 

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

See, there it is...because we are Christ's, we are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

So what was the promise?

 

Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

There's the promise! Abraham believed God (faith), and because of this, all who have faith are blessed with Abraham.

 

However, the promise was given to Abraham AND his seed. Who was his seed?

 

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

The promises that we also inherit were given to Abraham and his seed...the Lord Jesus Christ...and what were those promises?

 

1. That we would be blessed, and we are blessed because of the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

2. The second promise (which is directly tied to the first promise) that we inherit as children of Abraham is this...

 

Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

So there you have it. Yes, we are children of Abraham. Yes, we receive and are heirs of the promise. However, the Bible clearly defines what those promise are that we inherit...

 

1. We are blessed with the opportunity (as Gentiles) to place our faith in the finished work of Christ for salvation. All nations can receive that blessing!

2. If we have placed our faith in Christ, we receive the promise of the Spirit...who indwells us.

 

There you have it. The promises given, and the promises received. 

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Here's a link to The Berean Call's Radio program "Search The Scriptures Daily".  It's the transcript and the link to  the audio:

 

Dave & Tom Classic - What's The Difference Between Israel and the Church? (First aired on March 16, 2001 and re-broadcasted on November 14, 2014 on Search The Scriptures 24/7)

 

Two excerpts from the transcript:
 

T. A. McMahon:

 

Dave, our subject for today is, “ Israel and the Church” and we know from the Bible that Jesus was called the King of Israel in John:1:49, and that was a title that He didn’t repudiate.  He is also referred to as, Head of the church in Ephesians:5:23.  So, how are Christians to view Israel in the church?  Is there a distinction and if so, how important is it for us to understand what the Bible declares about both entities?

 

Dave Hunt:

 

Well, there certainly is a distinction in the Bible and any distinction the Bible makes has to be important.  The Bible is talking about important things revealing God’s purposes and plans for us.  For example, Israel was given a land.  They are God’s chosen people.  The Germans were never given a land; the Americans, whoever they are, they are a big mixture, were never given America although some professing Christians seem to think so and they think that Christians have to take it back.  The church is composed of both Jews and Gentiles, it is something new.  The church did not exist in the Old Testament.  Christ said, “On this rock I will build my church,” Matthew 16.  So, OBviously there was a beginning.  The church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, Ephesians 2.  So, there is no doubt that there is a difference.  God still has plans for Israel .  In Ephesians 2, it tells us that Christ when He died on the cross He broke down the middle wall or partition between Jews and Gentiles.  There was a distinction and there still is today except in the Church there is no distinction anymore.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free and so forth.  But we are one in Christ so He made of two one new man, Jew and Gentile became one new man.  Now, when the Jews became believers in Christ and part of the Church, that didn’t end Israel .  It didn’t end the other Jews, nor did they cease to be Jews themselves but they are one in Christ now with Gentiles.  When the Gentiles become Christians that does not end the Gentile nations.  So, you can’t say that because the church was founded the nation of Israel ceased to exist.  So in 1 Co. 10:32 Paul says, “Giving none offense, neither to the Jew nor to the Gentile nor to the church of God .”  So OBviously, today after the Church was formed there still exist the Jew, the Gentile and the Church of God .  And, those in the Church of God are neither Jew nor Gentile.

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First off, he did, 

 

Huh?

 

 

Second, you missed the first 24 verses of chapter 11 somewhere, where he  describes exactly what I have said.

 

Strange, because the first 24 verses describes exactly what I have said. If you'll go back and read my post and my subsequent post to Invicta, you'll see why I "missed" the first 24 verses. However, in your quoting of scripture, you left out verses 1 and 2 of chapter 11...

 

Romans 11:1-2
1   I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2   God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

 

 

All Israel are the conglomeration of the Israelites of blood lineage that are saved, and the faithful children of Abraham, in the Gentiles that are saved, through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

Goodness man. All Israel is ALL ISRAEL. You just proved my point. The church is Israel when it benefits the church, but then Israel is Israel when that benefits the church. You had no prOBlem differentiating between Israel and the church in your post when it worked in your favor.

 

In reference to "all Israel shall be saved", perhaps a perusing of Zechariah would be of benefit; in which, only 1/3 of all Israel will be left when the Lord Jesus Christ returns. This 1/3 will comprise ALL of Israel since the other 2/3's have been killed. This 1/3 of Israel will look on him whom they pierced, and they will mourn when they realize that the one who was crucified, the one they rejected, the one they hated...truly is their Messiah. This 1/3 of Israel will then be saved...in other words...ALL ISRAEL shall be saved.

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In reference to "all Israel shall be saved", perhaps a perusing of Zechariah would be of benefit; in which, only 1/3 of all Israel will be left when the Lord Jesus Christ returns. This 1/3 will comprise ALL of Israel since the other 2/3's have been killed. This 1/3 of Israel will look on him whom they pierced, and they will mourn when they realize that the one who was crucified, the one they rejected, the one they hated...truly is their Messiah. This 1/3 of Israel will then be saved...in other words...ALL ISRAEL shall be saved.

I don't get mixed up in these threads on eschatology because it just confuses me more than I am on the subject of Israel's place in the world today.  

If the 1/3 of Israel (the remnant) are to all recognize Christ as their saviour and be saved, are they then Christians?  

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I don't get mixed up in these threads on eschatology because it just confuses me more than I am on the subject of Israel's place in the world today.  

If the 1/3 of Israel (the remnant) are to all recognize Christ as their saviour and be saved, are they then Christians?  

 

In my view, anyone who accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior is a Christian. 

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First off let me say this lol. America is not a Holy Nation. That gets on my last nerve when I hear that. Rather:

1 Peter 2

Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disOBedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disOBedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not OBtained mercy, but now have OBtained mercy.

So we are a Holy Nation. A people that are no people. Call it Christian or rather Holy.

Enough of the Heritical teaching America is a Christian nation. There is no Democracy in the Bible as far as I can see.

I'll put these verses in. Once again I am no Bible scholar so I will let all of you expound on this without comment.

EX 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Deut 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Deut 26:19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be anholy people unto the Lord thy God, as he hath spoken.

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First off let me say this lol. America is not a Holy Nation. That gets on my last nerve when I hear that. Rather:

1 Peter 2

Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disOBedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disOBedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not OBtained mercy, but now have OBtained mercy.

So we are a Holy Nation. A people that are no people. Call it Christian or rather Holy.

Enough of the Heritical teaching America is a Christian nation. There is no Democracy in the Bible as far as I can see.

I'll put these verses in. Once again I am no Bible scholar so I will let all of you expound on this without comment.

EX 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Deut 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Deut 26:19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be anholy people unto the Lord thy God, as he hath spoken.

 

Potatochip, 

 

I don't mean any disrespect, but did you mean to put this post here? The subject isn't a prOBlem; it just seems like it would be better served in its own thread since it's dealing with something entirely different than what was being discussed in this thread?

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Invicta, I'm not sure where you stand on this "the church is Israel" thing. Therefore, I'm not sure how to respond. The point of my post was to show that it would appear that one can pick and choose when Israel is "the church" or when Israel is "Israel". Israel apparently is only "the church" when it benefits "the church". However, when it's a detriment to "the church", then Israel is actually "Israel"?  :scratchchin:

I was brought up in this Brethren teaching that the Church and Israel were always separate. In studying the scriptures, I now completely reject their teaching.   I believe their is only one church.  Moses and all those true believers in the OT were members of the Church, those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of Life.  Moses knew about that book, 31  And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. 32  Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin — ; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33  And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. 

 

Daniel knew about that book. Daniel 12:1.

 

I do not believe what a lot of Baptists round here teach, that "All Israel" means the Elect, or the Church.  I believe that there is one Church in the OT and the NT, consisting of all those saved. Tehe Gentiles were graffed in and blindness cam in part on Israel. But one day the Jews will graffed  back in.  THEN all Israel will be saved.  How will the be saved?  The same as those Jews in Acts 2

 37 ¶  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
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I was brought up in this Brethren teaching that the Church and Israel were always separate. In studying the scriptures, I now completely reject their teaching.   I believe their is only one church.  Moses and all those true believers in the OT were members of the Church, those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of Life.  Moses knew about that book, 31  And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. 32  Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin — ; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33  And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. 

 

Daniel knew about that book. Daniel 12:1.

 

I do not believe what a lot of Baptists round here teach, that "All Israel" means the Elect, or the Church.  I believe that there is one Church in the OT and the NT, consisting of all those saved. Tehe Gentiles were graffed in and blindness cam in part on Israel. But one day the Jews will graffed  back in.  THEN all Israel will be saved.  How will the be saved?  The same as those Jews in Acts 2

 37 ¶  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

 

 

Thank you for your response Invicta. 

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Well my little diatribe lol on a Holy Nation. Seems like from the original question. The answers have gone every which a way lol.

Romans 9
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

The Gospel saves of course. It's not how one reasons with anyone or how they percieve anything. The Gospel saves:

Romans 1:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

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In Isaiah 56 -

 

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

 
And Revelation 7 -
 

 

Gentiles within Israel?

 

Yes. God said they could become part of Israel.

Unless I misunderstand the Old Testament.

 

Absolutely "strangers" could become part of Israel. However, again, we are talking about the nation and actual people of Israel. 

 

From the verses you quoted...including the previous verses...

 

Isaiah 56:1-8
1   Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2   Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath1 from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3   Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4   For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths2, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5   Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6   Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath3 from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7   Even them will I bring to my holy mountain4, and make them joyful in my house of prayer5: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer6 for all people.
8   The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

 

Christians don't keep the sabbath; that was for Israel...under the law.

Christians don't keep the sabbath; that was for Israel...under the law.

Christians don't keep the sabbath; that was for Israel...under the law.

God's holy mountain is in Jerusalem...in Israel.

God's house of prayer is the temple...in Jerusalem...in Israel.

6 The Lord Jesus Christ quoted this when he cleansed...the temple...in Jerusalem...in Israel.

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Absolutely "strangers" could become part of Israel. However, again, we are talking about the nation and actual people of Israel. 

 

From the verses you quoted...including the previous verses...

 

Isaiah 56:1-8
1   Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2   Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath1 from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3   Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4   For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths2, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5   Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6   Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath3 from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7   Even them will I bring to my holy mountain4, and make them joyful in my house of prayer5: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer6 for all people.
8   The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

 

Christians don't keep the sabbath; that was for Israel...under the law.

Christians don't keep the sabbath; that was for Israel...under the law.

Christians don't keep the sabbath; that was for Israel...under the law.

God's holy mountain is in Jerusalem...in Israel.

God's house of prayer is the temple...in Jerusalem...in Israel.

6 The Lord Jesus Christ quoted this when he cleansed...the temple...in Jerusalem...in Israel.

 

Sorry.  I don't understand your point here.

 

Stranger(s) in the KJB means foreigners.  This is carried over from the French (Norman) conquest.  The French for foreigner is étranger.  This would originally have been estranger but the French dropped the 's' and we dropped the 'e'.  as in a number of other cases.  such as école = school.  One where we have dropped the'S' but the French have kept it is Spain.  In English of 1611  stranger=foreigner.

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Sorry.  I don't understand your point here.

 

Stranger(s) in the KJB means foreigners.  This is carried over from the French (Norman) conquest.  The French for foreigner is étranger.  This would originally have been estranger but the French dropped the 's' and we dropped the 'e'.  as in a number of other cases.  such as école = school.  One where we have dropped the'S' but the French have kept it is Spain.  In English of 1611  stranger=foreigner.

 

Invicta,

 

I was responding to GenevanPreacher; in that, he pointed out that the Bible shows that Gentiles can become part of Israel...I guess he did so to give credence to his belief that the church and Israel are the same. He referenced a portion of scripture which spoke of "strangers" joining Israel. I agree with you; in that, strangers are foreigners...therefore, the strangers were Gentiles who joined in with Israel.

 

I was only showing that the scripture he used was speaking of the literal land of Israel and the literal Jews. That portion of scripture not only shows that, but also shows that those "strangers" who joined Israel were subject to the law...not grace. Other portions of scripture also show the same.

 

Hope that helps?

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Invicta,

 

I was responding to GenevanPreacher; in that, he pointed out that the Bible shows that Gentiles can become part of Israel...I guess he did so to give credence to his belief that the church and Israel are the same. He referenced a portion of scripture which spoke of "strangers" joining Israel. I agree with you; in that, strangers are foreigners...therefore, the strangers were Gentiles who joined in with Israel.

 

I was only showing that the scripture he used was speaking of the literal land of Israel and the literal Jews. That portion of scripture not only shows that, but also shows that those "strangers" who joined Israel were subject to the law...not grace. Other portions of scripture also show the same.

 

Hope that helps?

 

Actually I was showing that Israel was made up some who were not Israelites. That's all.

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The Israel/church argument will run and run. Can we not resolve the argument by seeing all the redeemed as the Covenant people of God? That relationship runs through all the "dispensations." It counts in Israel, Jew and Gentiles for all eternity.
Lev. 26:9-12 Eze. 37:26-27 2 Cor. 6:16 Rev. 21:3

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The conclusion of the matter:

 

Israel is Israel - a nation and people chosen by God which is distinct and separate from the Church, which is the Body of Christ, composed of all the saved/redeemed, both Jew and Gentile.

 

The Church is the Church  The church is built upon Christ.  The church did not exist in the Old Testament. It is an entity distinct from Israel (1 Corinthians 10:32)The Church is not Israel, and Israel is not the Church.

 

The end!

**************************************************************************************

Aug 6 2014

 

The Latest Threat to Evangelical Support for Israel [Excerpts]

 

Targeting young Evangelicals at top Christian universities has also been an extremely effective tool in the hands of those seeking to erode Evangelical support for Israel.

 

This is particularly the case in the field of theology. One of the defining characteristics of an Evangelical is their commitment to Biblical authority. They believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and therefore a trustworthy guide for how Christians should approach both personal and political issues.

 

Wheaton College’s Dr. Gary Burge has dedicated much of his work to formulating a biblical argument against supporting Israel. In addition to his endeavors inspiring young Evangelicals to abandon support for Israel, he also has worked to inspire his own denomination to take a hardline approach to Israel as well. As an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church (USA), Burge’s writings have played heavily in the recent decision of his church to divest in three companies that do business in Israel. The outrageously biased and anti-Israel study guide Zionism Unsettled included a chapter on Evangelicals and Christian Zionism taken from Burge’s work on the subject. His basic message is that the land of Israel is no longer important to God’s redemptive plan for humanity. The Kingdom of God, which was established by Jesus, fulfills all the promises God made to Abraham and the people of Israel. Thus, there is no need for an earthly “kingdom” for the Jews.

 

As Burge told the participants at the [2010] “Christ at the Checkpoint” conference, “It is not that the covenant of Abraham has been rejected; nor that it has been replaced or superseded; it has been fulfilled.” Using the term “fulfilled” is, essentially, an attempt to get around the nasty history of supercessionism and replacement theology, which hold that the coming of Jesus abrogated God’s covenant with the Jews and they are no longer a chosen people. To non-Evangelicals, it may seem to be simply a matter of semantics, but its implications are extreme: The Jewish people and especially the modern State of Israel have no special significance to God. Rather than using the imagery St. Paul offers—of the gentiles being grafted on to the vine of a faithful Israel—this view sees Israel as the egg from which Jesus hatches and then discards the shell.

 

This message of “fulfillment theology” is often coupled with stories of Palestinian Christians who have lost their land to Jews. In the film With God on Our Side —which is routinely shown at Evangelical colleges—Salim Munayer, founder of the reconciliation ministry Musalaha, stands beneath an olive tree and describes how his family lost their land in 1948 and their subsequent mistreatment by American Christians. “Quite often I meet Christian Zionist groups that don’t understand the implications of Christian Zionism,” he says. “The implication of Christian Zionism, the way we hear it here, is [that] to accept this theology is to commit suicide as a people group.” This is an explosive challenge to the average American Evangelical: How can you support a theology that causes people to suffer?

 

While this challenge may be emotionally effective in persuading some younger Evangelicals to reject the idea of God’s faithfulness to Israel, it ignores the rOBust Christian theology of suffering, as well as political realities that are hidden by fear. The Christian theology of suffering recognizes, for example, that God allows suffering for a season in order to further his redemptive plan for humanity. At the same time, the political reality is that Palestinian Christians are suffering less at the hands of Israel than those of Palestinian nationalists and Islamic radicals.

 

Christy Anastas, for example, a Palestinian Christian from Bethlehem, has courageously broken the silence on how land is routinely stolen from Palestinian Christians by other Palestinians: Palestinians are stealing other Palestinians lands—especially Christian lands. I have four uncles who lost half their land by people from Hebron. Just like that. They went to court to ask for their rights. The judge, sadly was from Hebron. He said to them, I can’t wait to see the four of you dead in the fridges.

 

The price Christy paid for speaking out was significant. She was disowned by her family and forced to flee to the UK, where she received asylum. Unfortunately, films like With God on Our Side refuse to acknowledge that the price of speaking out against Palestinian corruption, or even of not hating Israel enough, is too much for many Palestinians. It’s easier to go along with the crowd and blame Israel.

 

http://www.thetower.org/article/the-latest-threat-to-evangelical-support...

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It is not important to ThePilgrim who his parents were.  He doesn't care whether they were Jew or Gentile.  He only cares that he is saved by grace by a wonderful Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ.  He also prays that all men would find the same joy in Saviour's salvation he has found.  ThePilgrim will let the theologians worry about who will inherit a piece of land on this earth . . . . He knows he has a heavenly home awaiting for him.

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Rahab, the Harlot was the mother of Boaz.  She was a Gentile.  I have no doubt she was saved, and possibly her family.

 

Ruth the Moabitess was a Gentile and the wife of Boaz.  I have no doubt she was saved.  Were they saved by keeping the law or by looking forward to Christ, their Saviour.

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