Matthew 24

[HappyChristian]

prophet, PastorScott answered you well in another thread. And here's mine: dont start that nonsense. It's nothing more than sowing discord. And we all know - or should - what the Bible says about that.

We all use terms that aren't in the KJB...even you. Let's not be falsely pious.

[prophet1]

What is translated by the King James as "the most holy place" is the Hebrew "qodesh qodesh" (holy-holy).
The King James adds the word "place", which is NOT in the original Hebrew.

The construction "Holy of Holies" is a literal translation of a Hebrew idiom which is intended to express a superlative.

Awesome!
Except "holies" isn't a word, in English.
Holy is an adjective, it isn't expressed as singular or plural, it is modifying a noun or pronoun that would express number.

Ex: He is holy
They are holy
Holy Place
The most Holy Place
The Holy Lands
See?

In English, the part of speech being modified carries the burden of expressing number.
The same adjective, neutral in number, modifies both singular and plural nouns/pronouns.

If correcting English causes division, it is dividing those who care about being correct from those who don't.

[allen32]

What is translated by the King James as "the most holy place" is the Hebrew "qodesh qodesh" (holy-holy). 

The King James adds the word "place", which is NOT in the original Hebrew.

 

The construction "Holy of Holies" is a literal translation of a Hebrew idiom which is intended to express a superlative.

you have to remember that the new testament was written in greek as it is written  topO that means place so go back and look in greek we will found it 

[No Nicolaitans]

Except "holies" isn't a word, in English.

 

Just posting this to show that "holies" is a word...in English...and it's a noun.

 

Source - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/holies?s=t

 

holy
[hoh-lee]  
adjective, holier, holiest.
1. specially recognized as or declared sacred by religious use or authority; consecrated:
holy ground.

2. dedicated or devoted to the service of God, the church, or religion:
a holy man.

3. saintly; godly; pious; devout:
a holy life.

4. having a spiritually pure quality:
a holy love.

5. entitled to worship or veneration as or as if sacred:
a holy relic.

6. religious:
holy rites.

7. inspiring fear, awe, or grave distress:
The director, when angry, is a holy terror.

 

noun, plural holies.
8. a place of worship; sacred place; sanctuary.

[beameup]

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins,

and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy,

and to anoint the most Holy (qodesh qodesh).  Daniel 9:24

 

The 70th week of Daniel is yet to occur.  This is what is referred to as the Tribulation.  It concerns Israel and has nothing to do

with the Body of Christ.  This concerns the fulfillment of prophecy concerning Jesus' kinsmen and their destiny in Israel

during the Millennial Reign of the Messiah.

[Genevanpreacher]

Just to be clear and not get too far off topic - what verse or verses say that the "70th week" is the "Tribulation"?

[beameup]

The Hebrew word is shabuwa' which means "sevens" (used the way we use dozen).  In this case it is a "week of years".

70 "weeks of years" are determined upon "thy people and thy holy city" (Jerusalem).  This key prophecy is from vs. 24-27.

 

Jesus makes reference to this prophecy twice: Matt 24:15 and Mark 13:14.  The "abomination of desolation" takes place in the Most Holy Place.

[Genevanpreacher]

The Hebrew word is shabuwa' which means "sevens" (used the way we use dozen).  In this case it is a "week of years".

70 "weeks of years" are determined upon "thy people and thy holy city" (Jerusalem).  This key prophecy is from vs. 24-27.

 

Jesus makes reference to this prophecy twice: Matt 24:15 and Mark 13:14.  The "abomination of desolation" takes place in the Most Holy Place.

 

An answer to post #51 please?

 

[  Just to be clear and not get too far off topic - what verse or verses say that the "70th week" is the "Tribulation"?  ]  

[No Nicolaitans]

An answer to post #51 please?

 

[  Just to be clear and not get too far off topic - what verse or verses say that the "70th week" is the "Tribulation"?  ]  

 

It doesn't say - "the seventieth week is the Tribulation", but it does definitely indicate that it is.

 

Daniel 9:24-27
  24   Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
  25   Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks^{(7 weeks)}, and threescore and two weeks^{(62 weeks)}: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
  26   And after threescore and two weeks^{(same 62 weeks as before)} shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
  27   And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week^{(1 week)}: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

So, you have 69 weeks that have been accounted for in history. There is one week left over (verse 27) that hasn't happened yet...the 70th week. Christ referred to this very week as a future event (Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14, Luke 21:20). The "abomination of desolation" that Christ spoke of hasn't happened yet, nor has any of the other things mentioned in Daniel 9:27. Add to that, the beginning of the prophecy (Daniel 9:24) tells several things that will happen to FULFILL the 70 weeks...so, the 70th week, and all that is indicated by it, is still future and fits in with the description of the Tribulation period.

 

Now, I understand the Preterist/Partial-Preterist view of Daniel 9:24 and the remainder of the prophecy. So, I was just giving you the answer to your question.

 

It's there...for all to see...the 70th week will be the Tribulation period. It may not use the words that you asked in your question, but it's there. 

 

I don't mean this to be rude, but I hope it might help you understand where those of us who hold to a literal interpretation of God's word are coming from. Just as you can't see (?) the 70th week being the Tribulation, we can't see the spiritualization that Preterists/Partial-Preterists interpret scripture by. Spiritualizing literal events doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

 

My view is: I serve a real, living, and literal God...who gave us a real, living, and literal word...to be followed literally.

 

But no worries here...you can to believe as you wish. I'll not argue over it...just answering your question. 

[No Nicolaitans]

Holy is an adjective, it isn't expressed as singular or plural, it is modifying a noun or pronoun that would express number.
 

 

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

Holy is a masculine noun here. The capital H kind of gives it away.

 

קוֹדֶשׁ qodesh (ko'-desh) n-m <-- (n-m = noun-masculine)

 

I don't know how you feel about referencing Hebrew and Greek, but there it is.

[Genevanpreacher]

It doesn't say - "the seventieth week is the Tribulation", but it does definitely indicate that it is.

 

Daniel 9:24-27
  24   Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
  25   Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks^{(7 weeks)}, and threescore and two weeks^{(62 weeks)}: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
  26   And after threescore and two weeks^{(same 62 weeks as before)} shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
  27   And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week^{(1 week)}: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

So, you have 69 weeks that have been accounted for in history. There is one week left over (verse 27) that hasn't happened yet...the 70th week. Christ referred to this very week as a future event (Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14, Luke 21:20). The "abomination of desolation" that Christ spoke of hasn't happened yet, nor has any of the other things mentioned in Daniel 9:27. Add to that, the beginning of the prophecy (Daniel 9:24) tells several things that will happen to FULFILL the 70 weeks...so, the 70th week, and all that is indicated by it, is still future and fits in with the description of the Tribulation period.

 

Now, I understand the Preterist/Partial-Preterist view of Daniel 9:24 and the remainder of the prophecy. So, I was just giving you the answer to your question.

 

It's there...for all to see...the 70th week will be the Tribulation period. It may not use the words that you asked in your question, but it's there. 

 

I don't mean this to be rude, but I hope it might help you understand where those of us who hold to a literal interpretation of God's word are coming from. Just as you can't see (?) the 70th week being the Tribulation, we can't see the spiritualization that Preterists/Partial-Preterists interpret scripture by. Spiritualizing literal events doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

 

My view is: I serve a real, living, and literal God...who gave us a real, living, and literal word...to be followed literally.

 

But no worries here...you can to believe as you wish. I'll not argue over it...just answering your question. 

 

Thank you for a clear answer. 

[Covenanter]

 

NN:

.....

Now, I understand the Preterist/Partial-Preterist view of Daniel 9:24 and the remainder of the prophecy. So, I was just giving you the answer to your question.

 

It's there...for all to see...the 70th week will be the Tribulation period. It may not use the words that you asked in your question, but it's there. 

 

I don't mean this to be rude, but I hope it might help you understand where those of us who hold to a literal interpretation of God's word are coming from. Just as you can't see (?) the 70th week being the Tribulation, we can't see the spiritualization that Preterists/Partial-Preterists interpret scripture by. Spiritualizing literal events doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

 

My view is: I serve a real, living, and literal God...who gave us a real, living, and literal word...to be followed literally.

.....

 

 

I'm glad you "understand the Preterist/Partial-Preterist view of Daniel 9:24" BUT you OBviously don't

 

I don't mind being "accused" of spiritual understanding of Scripture, but your accusation is pejorative, so I need to explain.

 

I believe Scripture deals with real, literal events, spiritual things such as our relationship with God by grace, through faith, is real & literal - & spiritual. I believe that Jesus has ascended to his throne at his Father's right hand, & exercises real & literal kingdom that is spiritual. 

 

When Gabriel prophecies 70 weeks, I believe that is 490 literal years, ending about 7 years after his baptism & anointing, with two real & literal major events: Stephen, by the Holy Spirit declaring the apostate Jewish leaders to be "uncircumcised" & the Holy Spirit welcoming Gentiles - Cornelius & friends - into the church without circumcision. 

 

I further believe that when Jesus explained his prophecy of the destruction of the temple in Mat. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21, he was talking about the real, literal destruction that literally took place within the lifetime of the generation that rejected him. 

 

Also I believe that all who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus are real & literal & spiritual children of our heavenly Father, brothers & sisters in Christ. 

 

 

 

[HappyChristian]

Ian, there was nothing pejorative in NN's comment...

[No Nicolaitans]

I'm glad you "understand the Preterist/Partial-Preterist view of Daniel 9:24" BUT you OBviously don't

 

I don't mind being "accused" of spiritual understanding of Scripture, but your accusation is pejorative, so I need to explain.

 

I believe Scripture deals with real, literal events, spiritual things such as our relationship with God by grace, through faith, is real & literal - & spiritual. I believe that Jesus has ascended to his throne at his Father's right hand, & exercises real & literal kingdom that is spiritual. 

 

When Gabriel prophecies 70 weeks, I believe that is 490 literal years, ending about 7 years after his baptism & anointing, with two real & literal major events: Stephen, by the Holy Spirit declaring the apostate Jewish leaders to be "uncircumcised" & the Holy Spirit welcoming Gentiles - Cornelius & friends - into the church without circumcision. 

 

I further believe that when Jesus explained his prophecy of the destruction of the temple in Mat. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21, he was talking about the real, literal destruction that literally took place within the lifetime of the generation that rejected him. 

 

Also I believe that all who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus are real & literal & spiritual children of our heavenly Father, brothers & sisters in Christ. 

 

 

Ian, there was nothing pejorative in NN's comment...

 

Covenanter,

 

I apologize if my post came across wrong; it wasn't meant the way you received it.

 

Actually, the reason that I said that I understand the Preterist/Partial Preterist view of Daniel's prophecy is because of you and your explanation of it in the past. In fact, everything that you wrote in reply to me...I understand as I indicated. My only reason for saying that I understood the Preterist/Partial Preterist view was to hopefully stop an argument of opposing views before one was started. I simply wanted to answer Geneva's question without it possibly turning into an argument.

 

I do believe that I understand your view; however, if I offended you, please forgive me.

[Covenanter]

Ian, there was nothing pejorative in NN's comment...

 

 

Covenanter,

 

I apologize if my post came across wrong; it wasn't meant the way you received it.

 

Actually, the reason that I said that I understand the Preterist/Partial Preterist view of Daniel's prophecy is because of you and your explanation of it in the past. In fact, everything that you wrote in reply to me...I understand as I indicated. My only reason for saying that I understood the Preterist/Partial Preterist view was to hopefully stop an argument of opposing views before one was started. I simply wanted to answer Geneva's question without it possibly turning into an argument.

 

I do believe that I understand your view; however, if I offended you, please forgive me.

 

No offence taken, your apology is unnecessary, & I should apologise for not explaining clearly. But let me explain further ...

 

In many discussions with dispensationalists, the disp claims he understands Scripture literally, whereas the opponent spiritualises or allegorises - i.e. makes up his own interpretation without Scriptural warrant. "Spiritualising" is therefore a word that ends discussion. To quote the post in question:

 

 

 we can't see the spiritualization that Preterists/Partial-Preterists interpret scripture by. Spiritualizing literal events doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

That is using "spiritualising" in a pejorative sense:

Pejorative definition:  Expressing contempt or disapproval.

 

 

We are in fact encouraged & enabled to understand Scripture spiritually, & warned against reading Scripture in a natural sense: 1 Cor. 2:9-16

 

I hope that clarifies my post. In fact, I doubt if you can find a post of mine where I have spiritualised or allegorised Scripture in a way that is without Scriptural guidance. But I do think the disp claim to literal interpretation is often questionable. e.g. the interpretation that separates week 70 from the 70 weeks by 2,000 years, but insists that 1,000 years must be literal. 

 

Feel free not to reply further, but it would be keep in mind what I have said about the approach to Scripture understanding.