Matthew 24

[OLD fashioned preacher]

Wow, what a diverse group in this thread. Sometimes these make me think of a rainbow coalition rally.

 

Well, maybe not that diverse 

So we don't need diversity training because we just went through it?

 

That was a lot better than what they want to require for diversity training!

[Covenanter]

Let's consider the OP & it's significance.

 

Jesus is specifically teaching his close disciples, with the intention that his teaching be relayed to all believers. He had no more public teaching for the Jews except the few words at his trial, on the road to the cross & from the cross. 

 

Many commentators see & discuss 3 lines of interpretation:

Specifically relating to the AD 70 destruction up to "this generation" which is the literal interpretation, but with some difficult questions;

Specifically relating the whole Olivet prophecy to yet future end times, & involving a rebuilt temple;

The destruction & the whole historical progress of the Gospel against persecution until Jesus returns, with the extraordinary events occurring at the end of this dispensation.  

[DaveW]

You apply vs 34 to AD70 destruction of Jerusalem.
 33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. note

 34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The fact is it relates to the Generation that sees these things - but what are these things?
Not the destruction of Jerusalem - not even mentioned....

The previous things:

27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
 29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
 30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Nup - not seen in history - the generation Jesus was speaking to did not see this stuff.

Matthew 24 can not refer to the destruction of Jerusalem nor can it relate to the Generation that Jesus was then speaking to.
They did not see these things. "This generation" is the generation that sees these things.

[Covenanter]

Up to Mat. 24:29 there is no prOBlem seeing the prophecy as referring to the AD 70 destruction Jesus prophesied in the opening verses. Likewise up to Mark 13:25 & Luke 21:26. Jesus gives clear warnings of the signs that indicate they should flee the city. I don't consider there to be a prOBlem with the heavenly signs - the destruction of Babylon by the Medes was prophesied in similar terms - Isaiah 13:9-17 . Peter spoke of similar signs at Pentecost - Acts 2:17-21 - that drew the crowd under the sound of the Gospel. 

 

The difficulties relate to seeing the coming of the Son of man. 

[Covenanter]

Regarding the coming of the Son of man, Jesus made it clear that he would come to judge those who rejected him. Mat. 21:40-45   Mark 12:9  Luke 20:13-16 By the time of Peter's second letter, the scoffers were questioning Jesus prophecy & declaring it "failed" in effect saying Jesus was a false prophet whose prophecies did not come true. 2 Peter 3:3-4 

 

Peter reminds them of another prophecy - the flood - that certainly took place, though all mankind ignored the warnings & Noah's preaching. Peter majors on the certainty of Jesus coming in judgement at an indefinite future time. They are warned of swift destruction, while Hebrews reminds them that God allowed a generation of 40 years before his promises were realised. Heb. 3

 

They could see with their understanding the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy of his coming in judgement of the nation. The survivors, believers & unbelievers saw the Kingdom being given to what Peter calls a holy nation - of believers in Jesus. 1 Pet. 2:9 

coming in the clouds of heaven. Mat. 26:64 where Jesus is quoting Daniel 7:13 where Jesus ascends to claim his eternal Kingdom.

[DaveW]

You might not see a prOBlem with the other signs but they are specific and plain - and as yet unfulfilled.
And it is the generation that sees those signs which shall not pass.

And fleeing the city...... of course the only time that has ever happened was AD70, wasn't it.
Well, guess what - there is still a city and it is still inhabited by Jews. Considering the other signs are clearly as yet unfulfilled, and the potential for the fleeing of the city is still there, it makes no sense to tie down that event to AD70 - there is no Scriptural reason to do so.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

There have been many "tribulations since AD 70. 

Think about the Crusades, when many were killed for their faith.
Think about the 20th Century, when more than 6,000,000 Jews were killed in Adolph Hitler's gas chambers.



Sorry Covenanter, but Preterism doesn't agree with Scripture or history.
 

[Covenanter]

DaveW, SFIC,

 

You haven't replied to the Scriptural points I made. Your arguments would be so much more convincing if you offered Scriptural reasons for not discussing the points I have made. I have sought to consider them in general terms as possible interpretations.

 

How many times in history did the Jerusalem Jewish believers flee from the city to the mountains in accordance with Jesus' warning in Luke 21:20-22 ? 

And how many times would God destroy the husbandmen who rejected & killed the Son of God? That tribulation is unique in history. And who are/were/will be the "others" to whom the vineyard is given? 

Was the wrath of Hitler more terrible than the wrath of God? 

The great tribulation Jesus warns against would be unique in history, quite separate from the tribulations believers suffer at the hands of the ungodly, & tribulations all suffer in wars & "natural" disasters through the Gospel age. Christians on all sides suffered in WWII, not just Jews. 

[DaveW]

It would be so much more convincing if you properly addressed the points that have been brought up properly.

Your normal MO (as with JW'S, Mormons, etc) is to introduce so many points that you don't have to answer any of them and can simply sidestep from one to another when it gets sticky.

I asked about ALL the signs mentioned in the passage - which "that Generation" will see.
You conveniently left out those verses in their entirety, and refused to address them at all.

As to tribulation - it plainly says:
 21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

There will never be as great tribulation on as that seen at this time - and it is very plain on its meaning.
There has been greater tribulation seen than the AD70 destruction, and to deny that is simply ridiculous.

How about you stick to a single point and answer it adequately and specifically?

[Covenanter]

Your normal MO (as with JW'S, Mormons, etc) is to introduce so many points that you don't have to answer any of them and can simply sidestep from one to another when it gets sticky.

Not true - it is necessary to consider the passage, not just isolated verses. When YOU take a single point, you are isolating it from the context.  

I asked about ALL the signs mentioned in the passage - which "that Generation" will see.
You conveniently left out those verses in their entirety, and refused to address them at all.

Not true - I did address them in posts #19 & #20.

As to tribulation - it plainly says:
 21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

There will never be as great tribulation on as that seen at this time - and it is very plain on its meaning.
There has been greater tribulation seen than the AD70 destruction, and to deny that is simply ridiculous.

How about you stick to a single point and answer it adequately and specifically?

Jesus Olivet prophecy IS a single, coherent prophecy, answering the disciples' questions about the destruction of the temple. Questions are an inspired record, but do not imply a complete understanding of the issues. Jesus' answer is the inspired truth.

 

Lifting the whole prophecy & applying to a yet future series of events is not a valid method of interpretation. Many of the predictions are recorded in Acts. 

[HappyChristian]

 

Was the wrath of Hitler more terrible than the wrath of God? 

 

Absolutely not.  The world has yet to see the fullness of God's wrath.

 

The Jews have faced persecution many times throughout their history.  But all of that will pale in comparison to the wrath of God unleashed on the world during the latter half of the Tribulation.

[prophet1]

Absolutely not. The world has yet to see the fullness of God's wrath.

The Jews have faced persecution many times throughout their history. But all of that will pale in comparison to the wrath of God unleashed on the world during the latter half of the Tribulation.

That wrath will be uleashed on the Jews, first and foremost, because they will be the kingdom of the Man of Sin, who will reign from Jerusalem (for a very short time )

[HappyChristian]

That wrath will be unleashed on the Jews, first and foremost, because they will be the kingdom of the Man of Sin, who will reign from Jerusalem (for a very short time )

Absolutely...but, just as in everything that has happened to the Jews, it will affect the whole world (as you indicated with "first and foremost").

[DaveW]

Covey, saying you have no prOBlem and then ignoring the prOBlems is not addressing them.
And you wonder why we don't bother discussing with you............

[Genevanpreacher]

Now that we have 'vented' all over each other, has anyone considered the fact that the disciples asked more than one question here?

Read verse 3 -

 

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,  

(1)when shall these things be? and

(2)what shall be the sign of thy coming, 

(possibly 3) and of the end of the world?

 

As a 'partial preterist', it matters to me, that there is more here than is normally taught.