John Calvin Had It All Wrong

[DaveW]

Gotta say something about this, Covenanter. You repeatedly remind folk that you are not defending or promoting Calvinism but merely correcting misinterpretations. In the past I've heard the same refrain from many on here who have espoused beliefs contrary to the majority of the board, including SDAs and Church of Christ people back in the day. But if you're correcting misinterpretations then really you are defending it.

And to what end? It's not as if you can do it for edification, since the people you wish to correct do not even think you are a Christian. Both Calvary and Heartstrings believe you are not a Christian, and I suspect Dave doesn't either, so to them your 'correcting' is no different to a muslim coming on here and attempting to clear up some specifics. Given this backdrop, your mission just sounds like a case of 'someone's wrong on the internet' syndrome.

I don't disagree with your general premise of this post, but I have never made that accusation.

If I may explain my position - I believe that anyone who holds to Calvinism as Calvin intended is not trusting in the shed blood of Christ for salvation - their salvation is based on the choice of God. This is unbiblical, for the Bible never says that we are saved by God's choice, but it constantly says we are saved by the precious blood of the Lamb of God.

However, I believe many people who "align with Calvin" do not really understand what Calvin believed and taught. These people might be saved because they believe the surface words without understanding the depth of Calvinism.

I think that there are people in various false churches who are saved in spite of what their church teaches, not because of it.

I have known people who defend Calvin who I would think are saved (I can not know another man's heart for certain), in spite of their defence of the system which teaches salvation not by faith, but by God's choice.
I have also known people who defend Calvin who, by their actions and attitudes, I would think are definitely not saved (again, I can not know another man's heart but the indicators??????? ).

But I have met many people who claim the name of Christ who appear by their life and actions to not know the Saviour.
That is not the exclusive domain of Calvin.

[Invicta]

I don't disagree with your general premise of this post, but I have never made that accusation.

If I may explain my position - I believe that anyone who holds to Calvinism as Calvin intended is not trusting in the shed blood of Christ for salvation - their salvation is based on the choice of God. This is unbiblical, for the Bible never says that we are saved by God's choice, but it constantly says we are saved by the precious blood of the Lamb of God.

However, I believe many people who "align with Calvin" do not really understand what Calvin believed and taught. These people might be saved because they believe the surface words without understanding the depth of Calvinism.

I think that there are people in various false churches who are saved in spite of what their church teaches, not because of it.

I have known people who defend Calvin who I would think are saved (I can not know another man's heart for certain), in spite of their defence of the system which teaches salvation not by faith, but by God's choice.
I have also known people who defend Calvin who, by their actions and attitudes, I would think are definitely not saved (again, I can not know another man's heart but the indicators??????? ).

But I have met many people who claim the name of Christ who appear by their life and actions to not know the Saviour.
That is not the exclusive domain of Calvin.

 

While I mostly agree with your post, I would add that some who attack "Calvinism" do not show christian attitude.  I have never supported Calvin, but only what I read in the scripture.  

[Calvary]

I don't disagree with your general premise of this post, but I have never made that accusation.

If I may explain my position - I believe that anyone who holds to Calvinism as Calvin intended is not trusting in the shed blood of Christ for salvation - their salvation is based on the choice of God. This is unbiblical, for the Bible never says that we are saved by God's choice, but it constantly says we are saved by the precious blood of the Lamb of God.

However, I believe many people who "align with Calvin" do not really understand what Calvin believed and taught. These people might be saved because they believe the surface words without understanding the depth of Calvinism.

I think that there are people in various false churches who are saved in spite of what their church teaches, not because of it.

I have known people who defend Calvin who I would think are saved (I can not know another man's heart for certain), in spite of their defence of the system which teaches salvation not by faith, but by God's choice.
I have also known people who defend Calvin who, by their actions and attitudes, I would think are definitely not saved (again, I can not know another man's heart but the indicators??????? ).

But I have met many people who claim the name of Christ who appear by their life and actions to not know the Saviour.
That is not the exclusive domain of Calvin.

 

I for one cannot suffer the utterly false system of doctrine known as Calvinism. I personally believe that its´s adherents are unsaved. You can argue that all you want.

 

I´m trusting Christ and His finished work on Calvary. I have never trusted in any election to be saved. The Bible never asked me to put my faith in any election, be it foreknown or predestined.

 

That is what I said, it is clearly my opinion, but I conclude that because I´m thinking along the lines of Dave W. I have found that in dealing with classic calvinistic theologians, they present their salvation more as a conclusion to the OBvious end of their theological system. Sure, when cornered, they claim the finished work of Jesus on Calvary, yet always lurking under the surface is their belief they are the elect, chosen in Christ since the foundation of the world. My KJB never asks me to trust in any eternal decrees, but rather to trust in the finished work of Christ who made an end to all my sin.

 

God bless,

calvary

[John81]

One could say "Baptist" applied to anyone or anything other than John the Baptist is an "unbiblical term", as could be said of the trinity or rapture. That doesn't make such a statement in itself true or false and doesn't enhance discussion.

 

Considering everyone knows the position of OB is non-Calvinist and I haven't seen an invasion of folks trying to turn us into Calvinists, how is this thread a help at this point?

 

It's also of no help to claim, from either side, that a position is Scriptural while adding a mix of opinion or emotional statements.

 

There have been Baptist Calvinists and non-Calvinists for centuries; some clearly served the Lord well, some didn't, some it's hard to tell.

 

Myself, I've never encountered a "radical Calvinist" or "hyper Calvinist" in the real world. I've come across some online, but then it seems the internet attracts the fringe of every stripe.

 

I know exceedingly little about Calvin himself. Since Pastor Adrian Rogers (an anti-Calvinist) said Calvin's Institutes is one of the best Christian books ever written, I wouldn't mind trying to read it sometime to find out, but it's OBviously not a high priority in my life since I've been saved nearly 33 years and still haven't gotten around to reading it yet!

 

I'm thankful I was saved and matured (not that I'm fully matured, only that I matured in the Lord prior to) before I ever heard of Calvinism or Armenianism or the "I'm not either one" folks.

 

If Calvinists are wrong, they should be corrected in love with the hopes of winning them to the truth. Hitting them upside the head, verbally accosting them, speaking ill of them, conducting our conversation in an ungodly manner isn't going to sway them, but rather make them defensive.

 

Some people say they hate Calvinism but I've heard (read) more about Calvinism over the few years I've been here than I've heard the entire rest of my life; and the threads and postings have mostly been from anti-Calvinists.

 

Is there really anything new to be said on this topic that hasn't prOBably already been said on OB and has certainly been put forth by others over the centuries?

 

This and tithe threads and pants on women threads seem to be great favorites yet they always take the same course and folks on each side still hold the same view when the threads get locked.

[Invicta]

I for one cannot suffer the utterly false system of doctrine known as Calvinism. I personally believe that its´s adherents are unsaved. You can argue that all you want.

 

I´m trusting Christ and His finished work on Calvary. I have never trusted in any election to be saved. The Bible never asked me to put my faith in any election, be it foreknown or predestined.

 

That is what I said, it is clearly my opinion, but I conclude that because I´m thinking along the lines of Dave W. I have found that in dealing with classic calvinistic theologians, they present their salvation more as a conclusion to the OBvious end of their theological system. Sure, when cornered, they claim the finished work of Jesus on Calvary, yet always lurking under the surface is their belief they are the elect, chosen in Christ since the foundation of the world. My KJB never asks me to trust in any eternal decrees, but rather to trust in the finished work of Christ who made an end to all my sin.

 

God bless,

calvary

 

Not so,

 

I believe that all saved are elect whether they believe it or not.

[Invicta]

I'm thankful I was saved and matured (not that I'm fully matured, only that I matured in the Lord prior to) before I ever heard of Calvinism or Armenianism or the "I'm not either one" folks.

 

 

So was I.  When I heard somebody preach on How God chose JacOB over Esau and how Paul used it to show how election works in Christians, I could feel my blood boil, and thought "How dare he?"  However studying scripture on the subject, I realised I was wrong.

[heartstrings]

I was upset for a different reason:  How dare a MAN who calls himself a preacher lie on my God like that.

[Covenanter]

Were Abraham & his descendants chosen by God?

 

Deut. 7:⁶ For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

⁷ The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

⁸ But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

 

Neh. 9:⁷ Thou art the Lord the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

⁸ And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

 

But is even that choosing selective?

 

1 Kings 19:¹⁸ Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

 

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

² God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

³ Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

⁴ But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

⁵ Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

 

 

[Guest]

I've never had a prOBlem with the word "elect" according to Jesus Christ's own words.

 

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

From our creation He gave us free will, all of us, not part of us. If we receive Him we are in the "elect."

[heartstrings]

''Election'' has to do with purpose or service; Angels, Israel, and even the Lord Jesus are ''elect''.

[Invicta]

''Election'' has to do with purpose or service; Angels, Israel, and even the Lord Jesus are ''elect''.

 

And the church.

[DaveW]

Chosen for what purpose though - the important point that Calvin and his followers ignore.......

No one denies that God makes choices, but the Bible clearly says that salvation is a gift offered to all men, not just a few.

[Invicta]

Chosen for what purpose though - the important point that Calvin and his followers ignore.......

No one denies that God makes choices, but the Bible clearly says that salvation is a gift offered to all men, not just a few.

 

I take your point Dave, but it also says no one can come to Jesus unless the father calls him.  Christ also quotes Isaiah to say that he spoke in parables so that not all would believe and be saved.

[DaveW]

I take your point Dave, but it also says no one can come to Jesus unless the father calls him. Christ also quotes Isaiah to say that he spoke in parables so that not all would believe and be saved.

Not the way Calvin states it.
Salvation is available to all men. God did not and does not choose whom He will save in Calvin's way.
There is no such thing as Calvin's total depravity, nor Calvin's unconditional election, nor Calvin's limited atonement, nor Calvin's irresistible 'grace', nor Calvin's perseverance of the saints.

Much of it is close but not close enough.

Calvinism, or 'the doctrines of grace' as those who don't want the association put it, are a false system teaching a false Gospel.

Yes, Calvin got it wrong, and his teaching leads many to hell.

[heartstrings]

And the church.

That's right. Jesus, angels, Israel, and the Church all have a jOB, and purpose. Jesus came to Earth, performed miracles, "went about doing good", shed His blood on the cross and rose from the dead. Part of His "work", his "jOB" was finished on Calvary. Now He makes "intercession for the saints" and will one day do something else when he comes in the clouds to get us, then fights with the sword of His mouth and stands upon the Mount of Olives, and reigns a thousand years....see what I'm saying?  Likewise the angels, Israel and the Church have a purpose/function/jOB as well. Point being; Jesus is "elect" but that doesn't mean God "chose" him in the sense that he "picked" him...He has always existed and has always been God.