Original Sin And Pelagianism

[Genevanpreacher]

so you decided one day that you wanted a relationship with God and asked Jesus into your heart?

can you explain John 15:16, Matt 11:27, John 6:44?

I do have more in case you think I am just going through a few verses

 

Not me. I became a believer when I actually 'heard' the Gospel, and it made sense! Jesus Christ is God in human form, and paid my sin debt on the cross.

[Jeffrey]

Not me. I became a believer when I actually 'heard' the Gospel, and it made sense! Jesus Christ is God in human form, and paid my sin debt on the cross.

pretty much the same here.
I actually just started reading "Institutes", Im only in chapter 5, He is writing about God the creator and how God has put the impression of Himself in all of mankind

[No Nicolaitans]

Here are verses proving that man has free-will apart from any influence from God...

 

Jeremiah 19:1-5
1   Thus saith the LORD, Go and get a potter's earthen bottle, and take of the ancients of the people, and of the ancients of the priests;
2   And go forth unto the valley of the son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the east gate, and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee,
3   And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.
4   Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
5   They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

 

Jeremiah 32:28-35
28   Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will give this city into the hand of the Chaldeans, and into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and he shall take it:
29   And the Chaldeans, that fight against this city, shall come and set fire on this city, and burn it with the houses, upon whose roofs they have offered incense unto Baal, and poured out drink offerings unto other gods, to provoke me to anger.
30   For the children of Israel and the children of Judah have only done evil before me from their youth: for the children of Israel have only provoked me to anger with the work of their hands, saith the LORD.
31   For this city hath been to me as a provocation of mine anger and of my fury from the day that they built it even unto this day; that I should remove it from before my face,
32   Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
33   And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.
34   But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it.
35   And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

 

Hosea 1:1 and 8:4
The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of JerOBoam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

 

They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

[No Nicolaitans]

1 Timothy 4:10-11
10   For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11   These things command and teach.

 

Does Calvinism command and teach this? No; therefore, they are in direct disOBedience to God's word.

[No Nicolaitans]

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3   For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4   Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

[No Nicolaitans]

1 John 2:1-2
1   My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2   And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

[No Nicolaitans]

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

[No Nicolaitans]

Is sending people to hell all part of "God's good pleasure"?

 

Ezekiel 18:23
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

[No Nicolaitans]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

There is no need to say more...

 

Now, I realize that a Calvinist's definitions of the words world, all, any, etc. are different. They have to be in order to fit their doctrine...that doesn't make their definitions right. The plain reading of scripture defines who God is talking about.

 

And no, I will not debate Jeffrey or any other person about the verses that I have listed...or...TULIP...or...supertransubordinefficastromodifcationism...or any other Calvinist term .

 

The Bible and God speak for themselves.

[Dr James Ach]

Jeffrey, when you actually learn to debate with point, and counter point, and answer my statements and questions in the order and fashion they were given, instead of avoiding them by responding with more red herrings and rabbits, then I'll engage the other arguments and verses that I've answered a million other Calvinists on before.

 

And yes, I DID DECIDE I wanted to have a relationship with Christ, and if you DID NOT, and think you are saved merely because you think you are elected (which is something you can't prove) then you are not saved. When Calvinists can quit being so stupid as to assume that doing what God told us to do (make a decision to repent which is a DECISION and volitional change of mind) is us "saving ourselves" then perhaps there can be some meaningful dialogue and substantial steps towards Calvinists actually understanding the dynamics of the will that God gave us, instead of reducing us to evolutionary animals who merely operate on instinct and survive only if they were chosen to survive.

 

You can listen to James White and Paul Washer call it "decisionism" all day long, but the fact is if you do not WILLINGLY believe in Christ, then you are not saved.

[Jeffrey]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Peter, again, like other epistles,was written to believers. not to unbelievers. So God is OBviously talking about the elect that will not perish

[DaveW]

Anything Dr James or NN have posted in this threads gets at least two thumbs up from me.

Can I add that the GIFT of God is eternal life.
Any gift that is forced upon you is just not a gift - it is an imposition.
God's illustration of salvation as a gift fits in with the doctrine of free will as outlined in the verses NN has posted.

This is not Arminianism - it is Biblical understanding of salvation.
Arminianism is just as wrong as Calvinism.

[No Nicolaitans]

Peter, again, like other epistles,was written to believers. not to unbelievers. So God is OBviously talking about the elect that will not perish

 

It's not gonna work Jeffrey...

 

And no, I will not debate Jeffrey 

 

 

 

Variety of translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures

......Augustine

 

 

 

 

Jeffrey
Resident Liberal

 

The floor is yours; however, I will no longer respond to anything that you say. I just happen to believe that God knew what he was talking about when he said...

 

Romans 16:17

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 

 

Can I urge you to do the same?

[Jeffrey]

 

Jeffrey, when you actually learn to debate with point, and counter point, and answer my statements and questions in the order and fashion they were given, instead of avoiding them by responding with more red herrings and rabbits, then I'll engage the other arguments and verses that I've answered a million other Calvinists on before.

So my Scriptural verses I asked you to explain are "red herrings and rabbits"?

 

 

And yes, I DID DECIDE I wanted to have a relationship with Christ, and if you DID NOT, and think you are saved merely because you think you are elected (which is something you can't prove) then you are not saved.

No, I am saved because i am a sinner in whom Christ died on a cross for and was resurrected 3 days later. It was His shed blood that purchased me. Like I agreed with Geneveanpreacher, I was confronted with the Gospel and I believed it. Like I mentioned earlier. God put His imprint of Him in all men that they would seek Him, that was initiated by God, not man.

 

 

 

you mean, if people don't believe like me, they aren't really saved?

 

What you have done is take credit for your salvation, thinking that you had something to do with it, when in fact, God is all active in your salvation and doesn't need you to do anything but believe John 3:16

[Dr James Ach]

Peter, again, like other epistles,was written to believers. not to unbelievers. So God is OBviously talking about the elect that will not perish

Using that kind of logic, only Paul was saved then because Galatians 2:20 makes it clear when Paul says "Christ died for ME" Paul didn't say that Christ died for the elect or even for anyone in Galatia in that verse, but ONLY FOR PAUL. So really, the only person that can truly prove that they are saved is Paul since he is the only person that Christ died for.