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Original Sin And Pelagianism


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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

man... another one where Im going to get my head lopped off.

I don't believe we inherit Adams Sin Debt, but we do inherit His nature, thus we WILL sin. We cannot fulfill the law due to our nature.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I didn't say anything about inheriting Adam's sin debt. Why would you get your head lopped off?

not you... and maybe I've just been running around forums with reformed theology folk for a long time, but it will come up. Just watch. :binkybaby:

Edited by Gorship
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

You have.. many trains of thought but... (I want to say predominate view, but hey, I could be wrong) is man is Totally Depraved, even non calvinist Baptists will say that from Adams sin, we are born sinners. two 'proof texts' they like are

Psa 51:5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

and

Romans 5:12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

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This is not a calvinist board, although we occasionally have some visitors. That's not to say that calvinist theology doesn't get stuck in the heads of non-calvinists, though. I for one would love to identify any of that stuff that's gotten into my thinking so I can get rid of it!

 

Do we inherit a sin nature from Adam? Certainly. Romans 5 speaks to that. Certainly that sin nature means that we are bent toward sin (Psalm 58:3), and begin sinning right away - even before we are old enough to fully understand it, perhaps. Like Miss Daisy said, anyone with a baby can tell you that!  I do not believe, though, that we are born already condemned because of the debt of Adam's sin. We are told that the son shall not bear the sins of the father (Ezekiel 18:18-20) and shall not be put to death for the sins of his father (Deuteronomy 24:16). God will punish multiple generations who refuse to honor Him, yes, but that is punishing each generation for their own sin. (Deuteronomy 5:9 - "of them that hate me" being the key words.)

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

We were born from the loins of the first man and woman, therefore being of the same

'matter' and 'make-up' we would have done the same 'sin' if we were in the garden.

 

Rebellion is our nature, that's why God gave Adam and Eve a Choice to OBey.

'Original sin' is not actually the sin nature we 'inherited'. We just ...are human.

 

The beautiful part of the garden experience was gonna be the tree of life.

To live in a perfect body, 'in OBedience', voluntarily, forever.

 

We only inherited a so-called sin nature, because we are their offspring,

making us human beings that will always choose the 'easy' way, unless guidance

by God through his word is imbibed into our nature.

 

If they would've OBeyed, voluntarily, there we would be - perfect beings living God's way

in OBedience, voluntarily, forever.

 

So sort of, and yes, respectively.

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This is not a calvinist board, although we occasionally have some visitors. That's not to say that calvinist theology doesn't get stuck in the heads of non-calvinists, though. I for one would love to identify any of that stuff that's gotten into my thinking so I can get rid of it!

 

Do we inherit a sin nature from Adam? Certainly. Romans 5 speaks to that. Certainly that sin nature means that we are bent toward sin (Psalm 58:3), and begin sinning right away - even before we are old enough to fully understand it, perhaps. Like Miss Daisy said, anyone with a baby can tell you that!  I do not believe, though, that we are born already condemned because of the debt of Adam's sin. We are told that the son shall not bear the sins of the father (Ezekiel 18:18-20) and shall not be put to death for the sins of his father (Deuteronomy 24:16). God will punish multiple generations who refuse to honor Him, yes, but that is punishing each generation for their own sin. (Deuteronomy 5:9 - "of them that hate me" being the key words.)

IF Calvin taught what you just quoted, why would you ever want to get that "out of your head"? 

And particular, what exactly from Calvin do you disagree with? Have you ever read Calvin? Institutes?

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

 

Variety of translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures

 

......Augustine

 

:umno:

 

I started reading Calvin's Institutes once...I made it through about 3 pages.  It was page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page of what I deemed incessant theological ramblings. Why anyone would spend time in that rather than God's word...I don't understand.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

IF Calvin taught what you just quoted, why would you ever want to get that "out of your head"?
And particular, what exactly from Calvin do you disagree with? Have you ever read Calvin? Institutes?


Ohhhhhhhh - how long have you got?

Calvin the man was a seriously nasty piece of work.
History condemns the man.

I have looked and constantly asked supporters of the man to show me his salvation testimony - never found it, never been shown it by any of his supporters.

As to his teachings - some of it is close, but not close enough.
He was a lawyer, and he twists the scriptures the way a lawyer looks for loopholes.
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Calvin would have been a good Muslim...killing people who didn't agree with his theology and such.

Calvin didnt kill Servetus, he didnt have the authority in Geneva to that kind of thing if he wanted to, heresy was a capital punishment in Geneva at the time and Servetus was tried by the the magisterial council of Geneva

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:umno:

 

I started reading Calvin's Institutes once...I made it through about 3 pages.  It was page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page page after page after page after page after page after page of what I deemed incessant theological ramblings. Why anyone would spend time in that rather than God's word...I don't understand.

 2 Tim 1Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

 

God also uses people in our lives and history to teach us also

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Calvin was a murderer.
Calvin was a despot.
Calvin was a dictator.
Calvin was a false teacher.
Calvin was not a faithful man.
Calvin was not a saved man.

His doctrines are not biblically supportable.
His teachings twist Scripture to fit his own ideas.

Edited by DaveW
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

you took the bait...lawyers like to go round and round so much that pretty soon you'll just say "yeah, yeah" to get them to shut up. Every discussion with such a person goes nowhere. We know this. History proves it.

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 2 Tim 1Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

 

God also uses people in our lives and history to teach us also

 

2 Corinthians 11:14-15
14   And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15   Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
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Calvin was a murderer.
Calvin was a despot.
Calvin was a dictator.
Calvin was a false teacher.
Calvin was not a faithful man.
Calvin was not a saved man.

His doctrines are not biblically supportable.
His teachings twist Scripture to fit his own ideas.

can you please be specific in what teachings do you disagree with that his doctorines?

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can you please be specific in what teachings do you disagree with that his doctorines?


Nah.
Take your pick.
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Nah.
Take your pick.


The onus is on you, I asked you to be specific in what you disagree with Calvin's doctrine.
As for the OP, that would be covered under the T in tulip, mans totally depravity because of Adam's, which we inherited from him
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The onus is on you, I asked you to be specific in what you disagree with Calvin's doctrine.
As for the OP, that would be covered under the T in tulip, mans totally depravity because of Adam's, which we inherited from him

see! I knew it would come up :bday:

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The onus is on you, I asked you to be specific in what you disagree with Calvin's doctrine.
As for the OP, that would be covered under the T in tulip, mans totally depravity because of Adam's, which we inherited from him


I gave you a perfectly serviceable answer.
And about as acceptable to a Calvinist as any other answer I might give. ;)
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I believe some of the stuff that Calvin believed and some of the stuff that reformed folk today believe, for example the doctrine of the trinity. But so what?

 

Catholics believe the trinity, prOBably the most trinitarian of all.  

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Dave W.Not fair! I've used up all my likes and can't like anymore! Perfect responses I LIKE all of yours! Turn it right back around like you know they would if you took the bait! 

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I gave you a perfectly serviceable answer.
And about as acceptable to a Calvinist as any other answer I might give. ;)

so, you don't have an answer. In my experience in the IFB, that was typical to separate from something you totally know nothing about

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so, you don't have an answer. In my experience in the IFB, that was typical to separate from something you totally know nothing about

I have plenty of answers, but in my experience you don't want them - no Calvinist I have ever met actually wants answers - they want to twist words and argue.

 

They learned it from their mentor (Calvin), who learned it from his father.

Joh_8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 
Edited by DaveW
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Does man really inherit a sin nature from Adam?

 

Does man have such a thing as a sin nature?

 

Why or why not?

Simple answer: Romans 4-5, Pelagian and Calvinists are both wrong. I'll be right back to destroy the remaining Calvinist comments

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Calvin didnt kill Servetus, he didnt have the authority in Geneva to that kind of thing if he wanted to, heresy was a capital punishment in Geneva at the time and Servetus was tried by the the magisterial council of Geneva

I have an article on my website where we address this very pathetic excuse of John Calvin (that he "didn't have authority") 

Calvinists Defense of John Calvin on the Michael Servetus Ordeal

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The onus is on you, I asked you to be specific in what you disagree with Calvin's doctrine.
As for the OP, that would be covered under the T in tulip, mans totally depravity because of Adam's, which we inherited from him

The Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity is not merely that man inherited a sin nature under the federal headship of Adam, but that man is totally UNABLE to respond to the gospel, hear the voice of God, unless he was elected and determined to be saved. Calvinists attempt to persuade people to accept Total Depravity by default by tricking them into thinking that a denial of total inability is a denial of total depravity, and since most believers believe that we all inherited our sin nature from Adam somehow, the believer that doesn't know any better swallows depravity hook, line and sinker because he doesn't know what the Calvinist REALLY believes about Total Depravity.

Edited by Dr James Ach
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so, you don't have an answer. In my experience in the IFB, that was typical to separate from something you totally know nothing about

I'll give you the BIGGEST prOBlem that Calvinism has that proves that Calvinism makes God the author of sin regardless of whether their Dortian or Westminster Confession says so or not.

*Calvinists believe that God from the foundation of the world decreed all that will be saved (some believe that all were predetermined for heaven or hell, or that God simply "passed over" the non elect in a passive manner, depending on whether you are infra or supralapsarian, which really, there is no difference).

*In order for God to determine an 'elect', to redeem, there had to be something to redeem them FROM

 

*Thus in order to redeem them FROM something, and from someone, there had to be another group of non elect who were also sinful. No sinners, no need for redemption and no difference between the elect and non elect because neither would have a sin nature.

 

THE CONUNDRUM

Adam COULD HAVE chosen not to sin if you believe that Adam was initially created with free will (of every tree in the garden you MAY FREELY EAT). BUT, if Adam choose to NOT SIN, then what happens to God's decree? God messed up and decreed something that Adam interfered with by failing to sin (and the Westminster Confession eliminates God choosing any based on His "foresight").

 

Thus if God truly elected ANYONE to salvation before the foundation of the world, when He COULD HAVE elected everyone, not only does that mean God WANTED to damn someone making Him sadistic, but it also means HE HAD TO GUARANTEE THAT ADAM WOULD SIN IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE HIS ELECTION CAME TO PASS. 

This makes God the author and creator of sin no matter which way any Calvinist tries to spin it, ,and the biggest prOBlem that the Calvinist has is their view of the nature of God.

Edited by Dr James Ach
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