So Where Was Baptism For Salvation In The Ot?

[Invicta]

Fist off, forgive me for spelling mistakes as I am using a glasses off program to improve my vision and it requires while I am using it not to where any glasses.  So I can't see the keybaord that well and my typing skills are a bit lacking.

 

So,

 

Which church would it be if Jesus has not gone to the cross yet?

 

So here is Jesus Building a church and it is pre-cross so what church was he building?

 

It is the church of the first born which is Israel also known as the church in the wilderness  This church is not currently being built.  What is being built today is the BODY OF CHRIST, which is called the Church.  Once the BODY OF CHRIST has been gathered into the clouds to Jesus, then dealing and building the church of the wilderness/the church of the first born will be taken up again under the Gospel of the kingdom.

 

Today, we are blessed not because we keep his commandments or do baptisms or repentance, but because of the work of Jesus Christ (this does not mean you will not get a blessing if your do, it just means you don't earn anything by works today).  under Law and the gospel of the Kingdom one must keep commandments and do works to get a blessing of God.

 

You can argue all you want, if you don't see that it is because you are not OBserving the text.

 

Jesus didn't say he was building  He said I will build.

[DaveW]

AVBB'

 

Heb 11:24  By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 

Heb 11:25  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 

Heb 11:26  Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 

 

 

Make what you will of it - Paul says Moses knew about CHRIST.

[No Nicolaitans]

Galatians 3:11-12

11   But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith¹.

12   And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

 

¹The section of verse 11 that I highlighted is a quote from the Old Testament (Habakkuk 2:4)...and the opening statement of verse 12 makes it clear that the law had nothing to do with faith. Therefore, the Old Testament taught/teaches that justification came through faith alone without the works of the law.

 

Peter understood that those from the Old Testament couldn't keep the law...

 

Acts 15:10

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

 

Paul understood that those from the Old Testament couldn't keep the law...

 

Romans 9:31-33

31   But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32   Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33   As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

Verse 33 is also a quote (actually a combined quote of two verses) from the Old Testament (Isaiah 8:14 and 28:16)...the Old Testament taught/teaches justification by faith alone.

 

Don't stumble at the stumblingstone.

 

[AVBibleBeliever]

Jesus didn't say he was building  He said I will build.

And he is not yet finished.

[AVBibleBeliever]

 

AVBB'

 

Heb 11:24  By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 

Heb 11:25  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 

Heb 11:26  Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 

 

 

Make what you will of it - Paul says Moses knew about CHRIST.

 

I explained it already quite clearly, it is the reproach the author of Hebrews is speaking of do you not understand what the reproach of Christ was and is?

[DaveW]

............

 

If you are implying that before the Exodus that Moses knew Christ the Messiah you are in error.  The Author is showing a comparative not proving he knew Jesus Christ at Exodus 2 that is not true.  It was the reproach that he knew not Christ himself.

 

If I am wrong please provide a scripture that says, " HE said Moses had faith in Christ"  Hebrews does not say that.  Hebrews is talking about faith but not faith in Christ but the reproach of Christ.  That reproach was about serving God above oneself or the World.

 

 

But Paul quite clearly says "of Christ" not "of God: - why would he use this particular word?

 

And if you read the phrase you want to, you end up the same place anyway.

"Esteeming the reproach of Christ" - He esteemed serving CHRIST as better than the riches of the world.

 

To serve Christ in accordance with the will of God you must have faith in CHRIST - it is specific in that is is regarding CHRIST, not just God.

It is in reference to the specific part of the Godhead that is Jesus Christ.

 

You can not get around this point - Paul is saying that Moses knew about and served the Christ. Not just God, but specifically Christ.

 

Again, I choose to align myself with Paul, who spoke these words under the direction and influence of the Holy Spirit.

[282Mikado]

Some other verses I came across during my morning study that pertain to this topic:

 

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

These verses clearly tell us that a Jews hope (and the hope of salvation) was not in the works of the law (such as circumcision) but was a condition of the HEART, IN THE SPIRIT. If your heart is not right, no amount of works will get you anywhere. There is nothing man could ever do. ALL the praise has always gone to God. 

 

Consider the account of the Pharisee and the publican in Luke 18.

 

Luke 18:10-14 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

The Pharisees had all the “i”s dotted and “t”s crossed, and still he was not justified, whereas the publican had a truly repentant heart and walked away justified over the Pharisee. No works, no baptism.

[AVBibleBeliever]

But Paul quite clearly says "of Christ" not "of God: - why would he use this particular word?

 

And if you read the phrase you want to, you end up the same place anyway.

"Esteeming the reproach of Christ" - He esteemed serving CHRIST as better than the riches of the world.

 

To serve Christ in accordance with the will of God you must have faith in CHRIST - it is specific in that is is regarding CHRIST, not just God.

It is in reference to the specific part of the Godhead that is Jesus Christ.

 

You can not get around this point - Paul is saying that Moses knew about and served the Christ. Not just God, but specifically Christ.

 

Again, I choose to align myself with Paul, who spoke these words under the direction and influence of the Holy Spirit.

This is one of those places you may need Greek to help you understand.  it is the suffering of Christ not the faith in Christ the Author is speaking of.  You are also reading into the text you interpretation "he knew" the suffering not Jesus.

 

And how do you prove Paul Wrote Hebrews and why?

[DaveW]

This is one of those places you may need Greek to help you understand.  it is the suffering of Christ not the faith in Christ the Author is speaking of.  You are also reading into the text you interpretation "he knew" the suffering not Jesus.

 

And how do you prove Paul Wrote Hebrews and why?

It doesn't matter whether it was Paul or not - the book is inspired of God.

 

You can not get away from the fact that it is relation to Christ specifically - not just to God.

The author of Hebrews relates Moses choice to the Christ.

[Genevanpreacher]

It doesn't matter whether it was Paul or not - the book is inspired of God.

 

You can not get away from the fact that it is relation to Christ specifically - not just to God.

The author of Hebrews relates Moses choice to the Christ.

 

If you both would listen for a sec. Whether it was speaking of God or Jesus Christ, what diff does it make? They are both one.

So you both win.

[AVBibleBeliever]

It doesn't matter whether it was Paul or not - the book is inspired of God.

 

You can not get away from the fact that it is relation to Christ specifically - not just to God.

The author of Hebrews relates Moses choice to the Christ.

No No NO the Author relates the choice to to suffer with the people "esteeming the Reproach of Christ" not to the knowing of Christ Jesus Personally.  That is where you are missing the point and the truth of the verse.  He Esteemed the "Reproach of Christ" not  he chose to "know him".  If you are not familiar with the typology here in reference it is that Moses was a type of Messiah/Christ and it is that reproach he bore BY his own faith not faith in Jesus, not knowledge of Jesus but being the Anointed of God to lead the people. 

 

Are you willing to esteem the reproach of Christ as Moses was?

 

You are a Christian which means literally you are an "Anointed one"  Christ means "Anointed" and -ian means One of Another.  Hence if more people understood that a True Christian is an "anointed one" and the implication of it. we too by faith would esteem the reproach of Christ better than the things of this world.  This is what is wrong with Christianity today change the word water it down and make it that we are just followers.  But we are much more than that. We are anointed ones because we have that anointing of the Holy Ghost.  Many just want to live in this world and its ways and be a follower and tell you "don't look at me but at Jesus"  When what this world needs is people to look at who are walking each day in the reproach of Christ and the power of the anointing that is imputed to us through out faith on his finished Work.  This is what Moses knew nothing about.  What he knew he was called of God to lead the people as an anointed of God, out of Egypt.  this is why he chose to suffer with Israel and esteemed the reproach of Christ better than the things of Egypt.  He chose to be what God called him to be the anointed of God to lead the people out and any time you chose to follow God you will be reproached.

 

As Paul said, Php 3:17-21 ¶ Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.   (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:  Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)   For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

[282Mikado]

Morgan Monroe MB-100

[282Mikado]

 I'm still trying to get a proper response to the various times I have shown where baptism is NOT "a requirement under the Gospel of the Kingdom.

 

First I never implied that Baptism was for Salvation in the OT.

 

I stated that it was a requirement under the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was never preached in the OT, it was only preached by John the Bapt, Jesus, and the 12 & the 70(72) disciples in the NT and it was only preached to Israel.

.

 

why don't you show where it was not a requirement.

 

To these I replied:

 

It was not given as a requirement in Matthew 10, John 4, John 11 or for the thief on the cross as I showed and referenced multiple times. 

 

Later I replied with

 

Some other verses I came across during my morning study that pertain to this topic:

  

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

These verses clearly tell us that a Jews hope (and the hope of salvation) was not in the works of the law (such as circumcision) but was a condition of the HEART, IN THE SPIRIT. If your heart is not right, no amount of works will get you anywhere. There is nothing man could ever do. ALL the praise has always gone to God. 

 

Consider the account of the Pharisee and the publican in Luke 18.

 

Luke 18:10-14 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

The Pharisees had all the “i”s dotted and “t”s crossed, and still he was not justified, whereas the publican had a truly repentant heart and walked away justified over the Pharisee. No works, no baptism.

 

Now I want you to consider the following scripture:

 

Luke 8:43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
49 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.
50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

 

Notice what Jesus says to the woman: thy faith hath made thee whole

And to the ruler: believe only

 

That's all: faith and belief. No works. No baptism. You asked for me to show you where baptism wasn't a requirement and I've now show seven places, each of which show clearly that it is faith only that brings a person to salvation.

 

Notice when Christ is talking to the woman with the issue of blood He calls her daughter. There's a lot of good preaching in that one word: Daughter. When we are saved we become as the children of God, sons and daughters of the Most High. That's salvation. Once again, Jesus placed this woman in the family of God right there on the spot when He called her daughter.

 

Another thing that we can see here is that Jesus calls her daughter. Just another place in the Bible where we see that Jesus and God are one. As God the son He brought salvation to this woman. As God the father He accepts her into His family as a daughter. God the Father and God the Son shown to us in one word...Daughter.

[DaveW]

AVBB - reading through Romans this morning.
Ron 3
19  Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. note

 20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 21  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 22  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Witnessed by the law and prophets, even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ.

Still seems like Paul think the OT guys knew about faith in Christ.

[AVBibleBeliever]

AVBB - reading through Romans this morning.
Ron 3
19  Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. note

 20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 21  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 22  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Witnessed by the law and prophets, even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ.

Still seems like Paul think the OT guys knew about faith in Christ.

Dude, Faith has always been a part of the cycle of salvation but how works and Grace are applied are different. 

 

How many times do I need to state that?

 

You cannot separate the three aspects of Salvation Faith/Works/Grace;  Faith/Grace/Works; Works/Faith/Grace;  there are different order of applications at different times/eras/economies/dispensations.