Wouldn't it be wrong to join the Military

[war_eagle]

But I see your blind to the issue' date=' so I will stop.[/quote']

I'm not blind to the issue, Jerry, it's just that, having been a Christian in the military and seen the practical application of the regs against proselytizing up close, I have a different opinion than you.

Obviously, you've made up your mind about it (and are being pretty rude, too) so this will be my last post to you, but I'll just say that you're ignoring a couple of things.

The first is that the military makes a lot of concessions to Christians to accomdate us and the day to day practice of our faith.

The second is that there are many other ways in which to share the Gospel that are not prohibited.

The third is that there is a very strong Christian sub-culture in the military and you would be amazed by the number of testimonies from people who got saved in the service.

[AllenC]

Several important areas of this subject have been skirted.

Acts 4:17 ...let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.

Peter and John were BEATEN for preaching Jesus Christ.

Acts 5:41 ...rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

No American soldier gave them the freedom to disobey authority, and preach Jesus Christ.

They obeyed God Almighty! Acts 4:19 ...Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

No American soldier has given me the right to say what I am going to say. Genesis - Revelation!

1. Who found Peter and John worthy to suffer shame?

2. Then who gave them voice to speak, and where did there beating come from?

Someone here said, "you would never survive in China"

Someone may have said to Paul, "you will never survive in Rome."

No kidding - Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Someone DID say to Jesus, "Matthew 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee."

Then what did He say? Matthew 16:23 ...for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was a "thing of God" - "to be savoured."

Isn't it amazing they who ought to be the best of the best, the FUNDAMENTALIST, those who KNOW the fundamental things of God, are worried about their survival? Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Gonna stop with a third question. Please address these in order, and stay on topic, I have a couple other things to ask, but gotta go do some stuff now.

3. Those Christians in the military, are you willing to do violence to any men, (Men you call enemy - Matthew 5:44) immediately upon receiving the order? Luke 3:14 ...Do violence to no man

Jesus Christ separated Church and state here, Matthew 22:21, Luke 20:25.

(My geographical location is God's doing, not mine, if you are going to suggest I change it, speak to Him)

In service to the LIVING WORD, JESUS CHRIST,

AC

[Revelation3:20]

3. Those Christians in the military, are you willing to do violence to any men, (Men you call enemy - Matthew 5:44) immediately upon receiving the order? Luke 3:14 ...Do violence to no man

You are fundamentally missing what is being taught here. What is being spoken of when he says "Do violence to no man" was abuse of their power. If a roman soldier wanted to beat up a non-roman citizen he didn't like or had a problem with it was doubtful anyone would dare to stop him if he was not also a soldier. The greek word used for violence does not mean killing in time of war. It means "to shake thoroughly" or to intimidate. That fits in well with the next two things he mentions "neither accuse any falsely"; again an abuse of power that could be done to a non-roman citizen and they would stand little chance. If John was telling them what you think he would be telling them to quit. He wasn't saying that or he wouldn't have finished with "and be content with your wages." which is something soldiers throughout history are famous for being discontented over with roman soldiers being no exception.

Luke 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

BTW Matthew 5:44 is speaking of our personal life. The government is given authority to "bear the sword" in scripture. If you are in the army or police you are "bearing the sword" for the government and it is thus authorized by scripture.

[Wilchbla]

I don't know about the rest of the military, the Navy has been hostile towards chaplains who mention the name of Christ, but I have heard and read about the Air Force and how it is almost like a Seminary.

[Wilchbla]

Excellent post. :thumb

[AllenC]

Do you not see that Jesus Christ changed EVERYTHING, HERE,

You have heard THAT, but DO THIS! Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies

Because while YOU were His enemy He DIED, because of His LOVE! But you will KILL your enemy, will you not? Or you will hire someone to do it for you!

You are going to interpret His Words to match your desire, for the American dream!

Please show exactly where Jesus Christ contradicted the following words. Where did Paul contradict these words? Where do you contradict those words?

(THESE WERE NOT SUGGESTIONS)
1. Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek
2. Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful
3. Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers
4. Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake
5. Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you
6. Matthew 5:12 ...for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. < - - - OT PACIVITY
7. Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil
8. Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you
9. Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
10. Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another
11. Matthew 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master < - - - YOU DO WHAT HE DID, DON'T DO WHAT HE DIDN'T DO!!!
12. Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart
13. Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it
14. Matthew 17:5 This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. < - - - YOU DO WHAT HE DID
15. Matthew 17:12 Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. < - - for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. < - OT PACIVITY
16. Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee < - - - OT PACIVITY
17. Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
18. Matthew 25:40 Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. < - WHAT YOU DO TOO OTHERS, YOU DO TO HIM
19. Matthew 26:52 all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
20. Matthew 26:67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands < - - - WHAT DID HE DO?


Another example...

God says, "Persecuted, we suffer it." 1 Corinthians 4:12 WHY DO YOU THINK THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU?
Americans say, "Persecuted, we kill it."

The one that said, "you would never survive in China," considers comforts first.

Jesus didn't survive in Jerusalem, and Paul didn't survive in Rome, but you have the American Dream. Don't you?

CHRISTIANS DON'T KILL MEN - SHOW ME WHERE THE WORD OF GOD CONTRADICTS THAT STATEMENT!

Americans don't understand that, because Americans kill men, then they thank God for the victory - Muslims do the same thing

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Americans don't understand that either, for the same reason.

WHY DO YOU THINK - "LIVE BY THE SWORD, DIE BY THE SWORD" ISN'T DIRECTED AT YOU?

*************************************************************************************************************************

The government is given authority to "bear the sword" in scripture

BUT YOU ARE NOT! LIVE BY THE SWORD, DIE BY THE SWORD, MEANT YOU AND ME!

Jesus Christ said you are to render therefore the things that are GOD'S, and what is that?
ALL YOUR HEART
ALL YOUR MIND
ALL YOUR STRENGTH

The government get's your money, and obedience to the laws that don't CONTRADICT GOD'S HOLY WORD, and picking up a weapon to kill men CONTRADICTS GOD'S HOLY WORD

WHY DID THEY DIE MARTYRS, AND NOT FIGHT? WHY DID THEY SUFFER PERSECUTION, BUT YOU WILL NOT?

PERSECUTED, WE SUFFER IT!!!

YOU DO NOT SUFFER IT, YOU CHANGE THE CIRCUMSTANCES

BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW WHERE PERSECUTION COMES FROM

Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

WHO FOUND THEM WORTHY?

WOULD YOU EVER CONSIDER A BEATING JOYFUL? NO, YOU WOULD PROSECUTE TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW!

YOU WOULD FIND YOURSELF PROSECUTING THE ONE WHO FOUND YOU WORTHY OF A BEATING, WOULD YOU NOT?

Hebrews 10:34 ...and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods

YOUR HOUSE IS ROBBED, (by a tyrannical government) WHICH ONE OF YOU WOULD FIND JOY IN THAT?

IF NOT THEN YOU DO NOT HAVE THE MIND AND HEART OF THE ONES GOD WAS DESCRIBING THERE!

Americans are a complete contradiction to Christians described in God's Holy Word. Hebrews 10:34 and HUNDREDS of other verses prove it.

People were called CHRISTIANS because they SAID and DID as CHRIST SAID and DID.

WHAT HE SAID AND DID.

Not because of a belief. Yes they had to believe, then they BELIEVED THAT THEY HAD TO BE LIKE HIM, and GOD gave them the POWER to do it.

The Devil believes, but cannot be LIKE HIM

Can you?

PETER AND JOHN, REJOICE OVER A BEATING. DON'T WORRY, I DOUBT YOU WOULD BE FOUND WORTHY OF A BEATING, ACTUALLY.

[HappyChristian]

Tell us what you really think, Allen!

I guess the Children of Israel were wrong to fight to gain possession of the land, then? And then David was a liar when he said God taught his hands to war and his fingers to fight. Or that God describes Himself as a man of war? Oh, that's Old Testament...even though God doesn't change....

[JerryNumbers]

God doesn't change, but you must admit, when grace came in it put a compete different light on everything for those who want to walk with God.

At one time we had the draft, so young men who were physically able really did not have a choice about serving in our military service, but that is no longer true when the draft ended.

And to think, David was a great leader, but he would not qualify to be a leader, pastor, in a New Testament Church.

During this age, the church age, we are in a silent time, that is God is not openly speaking directly to men no longer as He had done. We are to be guided strictly by His Word, the Holy Bible. The man who says God gave Him a new revelations to go to war against a certain people is lying to us, actually he is just doing what he thinks is right and using God to try can justify or convince others to go along with Him.

I don't agree with all this mans says, but its a fact many of us Christians fail to follow God at many turns for fear that we will suffer.

Remember how much Jesus and His followers suffered. When I look around my community the majority of Christians all are living the good life but are still complaining and cannot get enough worldly possession to be content.

Imagine this.

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

We are to be harmless as doves. how many Christians does that describe in modern America?

[Revelation3:20]

Do you not see that Jesus Christ changed EVERYTHING, HERE, You have heard THAT, but DO THIS! Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies Because while YOU were His enemy He DIED, because of His LOVE! But you will KILL your enemy, will you not? Or you will hire someone to do it for you! You are going to interpret His Words to match your desire, for the American dream! Please show exactly where Jesus Christ contradicted the following words. Where did Paul contradict these words? Where do you contradict those words? (THESE WERE NOT SUGGESTIONS) 1. Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek 2. Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful 3. Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers 4. Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake 5. Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you 6. Matthew 5:12 ...for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. < - - - OT PACIVITY 7. Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil 8. Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you 9. Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 10. Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another 11. Matthew 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master < - - - YOU DO WHAT HE DID, DON'T DO WHAT HE DIDN'T DO!!! 12. Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart 13. Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it 14. Matthew 17:5 This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. < - - - YOU DO WHAT HE DID 15. Matthew 17:12 Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. < - - for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. < - OT PACIVITY 16. Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee < - - - OT PACIVITY 17. Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 18. Matthew 25:40 Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. < - WHAT YOU DO TOO OTHERS, YOU DO TO HIM 19. Matthew 26:52 all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 20. Matthew 26:67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands < - - - WHAT DID HE DO? Another example... God says, "Persecuted, we suffer it." 1 Corinthians 4:12 WHY DO YOU THINK THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU? Americans say, "Persecuted, we kill it." The one that said, "you would never survive in China," considers comforts first. Jesus didn't survive in Jerusalem, and Paul didn't survive in Rome, but you have the American Dream. Don't you? CHRISTIANS DON'T KILL MEN - SHOW ME WHERE THE WORD OF GOD CONTRADICTS THAT STATEMENT! Americans don't understand that, because Americans kill men, then they thank God for the victory - Muslims do the same thing Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Americans don't understand that either, for the same reason. WHY DO YOU THINK - "LIVE BY THE SWORD, DIE BY THE SWORD" ISN'T DIRECTED AT YOU? ************************************************************************************************************************* The government is given authority to "bear the sword" in scripture BUT YOU ARE NOT! LIVE BY THE SWORD, DIE BY THE SWORD, MEANT YOU AND ME! Jesus Christ said you are to render therefore the things that are GOD'S, and what is that? ALL YOUR HEART ALL YOUR MIND ALL YOUR STRENGTH The government get's your money, and obedience to the laws that don't CONTRADICT GOD'S HOLY WORD, and picking up a weapon to kill men CONTRADICTS GOD'S HOLY WORD WHY DID THEY DIE MARTYRS, AND NOT FIGHT? WHY DID THEY SUFFER PERSECUTION, BUT YOU WILL NOT? PERSECUTED, WE SUFFER IT!!! YOU DO NOT SUFFER IT, YOU CHANGE THE CIRCUMSTANCES BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW WHERE PERSECUTION COMES FROM Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. WHO FOUND THEM WORTHY? WOULD YOU EVER CONSIDER A BEATING JOYFUL? NO, YOU WOULD PROSECUTE TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW! YOU WOULD FIND YOURSELF PROSECUTING THE ONE WHO FOUND YOU WORTHY OF A BEATING, WOULD YOU NOT? Hebrews 10:34 ...and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods YOUR HOUSE IS ROBBED, (by a tyrannical government) WHICH ONE OF YOU WOULD FIND JOY IN THAT? IF NOT THEN YOU DO NOT HAVE THE MIND AND HEART OF THE ONES GOD WAS DESCRIBING THERE! Americans are a complete contradiction to Christians described in God's Holy Word. Hebrews 10:34 and HUNDREDS of other verses prove it. People were called CHRISTIANS because they SAID and DID as CHRIST SAID and DID. WHAT HE SAID AND DID. Not because of a belief. Yes they had to believe, then they BELIEVED THAT THEY HAD TO BE LIKE HIM, and GOD gave them the POWER to do it. The Devil believes, but cannot be LIKE HIM Can you? PETER AND JOHN, REJOICE OVER A BEATING. DON'T WORRY, I DOUBT YOU WOULD BE FOUND WORTHY OF A BEATING, ACTUALLY.

It seems you have an agenda and are quite ready to judge my character and make accusations with zero evidence and all when you don't even know me. I find it difficult to believe such a one as yourself can be trusted to speak Gods truth when at the very same time you are engaging in unscriptural behavior. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Are you sure you are not preaching in the flesh rather than in the Spirit? Just a word of caution brother. If you don't want to serve in the military no one is forcing you, but there were NT believers in the Roman army and if they could serve in the Roman army I think we can serve in the American Army which is a great deal better.

I direct you to the story of the centurion in [bible]Matthew 8:5-13[/bible] and [bible]Luke 7:2-9[/bible]where Christ held this man up as a picture of faith and did not tell him to quit when it would seem he certainly had enough faith to do that had Christ required it.

Then we have the story of Cornelius, who was a centurion in an elite military unit, found in [bible]Acts 10[/bible]. There is no indication Peter told him he needed to quit being a soldier.

Many Christians can serve in complete faith that they are in the will of God. If you can't, you shouldn't.

[Wilchbla]

But then again, I could bring up the fact that the Sermon on the Mount is the law of the millennial kingdom.

[HappyChristian]

And to think' date=' David was a great leader, but he would not qualify to be a leader, pastor, in a New Testament Church.[/quote']

The disqualification for him would be his illicit relationship with Bathsheeba, as well as his many wives (since the NT says to be the husband of one wife). David was not the spiritual leader of Judah. He was the physical king. The priests were still to perform their duties.

Grace does not mean that there will be no more wars. And when there are wars, men resond. And whether anyone likes it or not, God will move on certain people's hearts to join the military. My word, Jerry - I would think you would be happy that Christians join and share their faith with fellow soldiers. You know how close to death and eternity they are, and they need to hear about Christ. *sigh* But I guess that's just for everyone else, not soldiers, eh?

[JerryNumbers]

Our nations is constantly changing, the laws are constantly changing. It may well be that with the changing of laws for military personal that it will not longer be proper for a Christian to volunteer in our military service.

It would be totally wrong for a Christians to sign on the dotted line of any paper if it shuts his mouth to witnessing for Christ during active duty.

By the way, for instants, the person who joins the military for 3 years, that means he is on active duty for 3 full years, that would essentially shut his mouth 24 hours per day outside of their attending church service. They would be agreeing not to hand out tracts, Bibles, nr mentioning the name of Jesus to anyone in the course of active service.

I can also say to you, I don't see how you can help understanding that, God & Jesus are to be obeyed 1st, that is owe our allegiance to, in fact we can't be happy in Jesus unless we trust & obey Him, and thing less than trusting and obeying Him we are fooling our self, we will never fool Him.

By the way, God will never lead no one to do something that will cause them to disobey Him. If signing that paper means you agree to shut you moth to witnessing for Christ, that's disobedience.

[HappyChristian]

That's just it, Jerry - I do understand that. And I mentioned before, that my son didn't have to sign any such paper. He is free to witness to whomsoever he wants. As are all of the friends he has who are saved who have joined in the last two years. I know that it is God to Whom we owe our allegiance. And I know that God sometimes has people do things that other people don't understand. Remember Hosea had to marry a prostitute? If someone truly believes God would have them sign up in the military, they are being disobedient to Him if they don't. Plain and simple.

My son is signed up for 6 - but his mouth is not shut. In fact, his recruiter is an active Christian. And doesn't attempt to hide it. You are extrapolating that no-one can ever talk about Christ, and that simply isn't true.

[JerryNumbers]

So explain, where did this come from?

<<"Under the U.S. military code of conduct, armed forces on active duty are prohibited from trying to convert a person's faith.">>

I'll explain where it come from, it come from the U. S. Military code of conduct. And its quite plain, they take Bibles, tracts, from the soliders and burn them for they say they are not allowed to hand them out to anyone and neither are they allowed to talk to them about our God & our Savior.

Check it out for your self.

http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGL ... on's+faith

[HappyChristian]

I don't know nor care where it came from. I know many soldiers who witness and are allowed to.