that mystical man in the red suit

[JerryNumbers]

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

What is honest about lying to your children about a man in a red suit?

Ro 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

What is edifying about the man in the red siut?t?
What is true about the man in the red suit?
What is honest about the man in the red suit?
What is pure about the man in the red suit?

Don't you think, many children will think, "If my parents will lie to me about the man in the red suit, they will lie to me about others things, for example, Christ?

And as always, when one lie is told, many more have to follow in order to back up the 1st lie.

PS. Any family professing faith in Jesus, that cannot have fun without lying, that can't celebrate Christmas without that fictitious man in the red suit, surely is not following Jesus.

[Anon]

Wait, I'm confused. Why when I say, "I don't lie to my children, they know there is no Santa Claus" but then I say "Santa Claus is just a Fairy Tale"....some of you are saying "A Fairy Tale is a lie".

Of course it is...but if the kids KNOW its not true, and they KNOW their parents buy them gifts, and that Santa is just a silly story that some silly people believe...then how is that a lie? Its not a lie in our household because my kids all know Santa doesn't buy anybody gifts and that he's just a guy in a red suit that people like to pretend about. My kids need to understand fully what Santa Claus is so that they can explain to others why we do not believe in him. I don't want people asking my kids about him and have them just look with that "deer in the headlights" look. They are able to say "Santa Claus isn't real...my parents buy our gifts."

I think maybe some of you aren't interpreting my posts correctly, or else I'm not interpreting yours. haha.

[LindaR]

About 30 years ago, when I was living in Denver, Colorado, I was good friends with a couple who had a little boy (about 3-5 years old at that time). They didn't drive because they had no vehicle, so they used public transportation (the bus). During Christmas season one year, an elderly lady on the bus they were riding, asked the little boy: "What did Santa bring you for Christmas?" This 3-5 year old answered "Nothing. Santa didn't bring me anything. There is no Santa. At our house Jesus is Lord!" Blew the lady away, and Mom and Dad were grinning from ear to ear.

Edited December 27, 2011 by LindaR

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I'm not sure how having fun and participating in childhood imagination is a lie.

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Is training a child to perpetuate a lie really God's will?

To tell a child that "Santa is coming" or "Look what Santa left you!" is lying to the child. Santa didn't purchase that gift, Santa didn't leave that present under the tree. Why try to justify lying to children when God's Word tells us not lie? Why give children a reason to sing praise about or to a man in a red suit? One may as well teach his or her children the song to the tune of "O How I Love Jesus"...

O, how I love Santa
O, how I love Santa
O, how I love Santa
Because he brings me gifts.

There is a name I love to hear
I love to sing its worth
It sounds like music in mine ear
The greatest name on Earth.

He brings me gifts on Christmas day
As I'm asleep in bed
And then he flies off in his sleigh
He's real my mommy said.

Instead of looking for Christ's return in the clouds. toward the end of the year, children are taught to look for Santa coming in the clouds.

And still, people will defend the lie.

[sissytishad]

We discuss how there was a man that delivered toys to children along time ago. We really talk about mainly how God sent his son to die for our sins. We dont tell our children that santa brought them anything. I teach my children to be thankful for the present of Jesus coming to save all men. Encouraging children in believing in someone that isnt real isnt good but to each their own. We all have to answer to God what we choose to teach our children. We tell our kids that fairy tales is make believe. If some would read the real fairy tales then they would be shocked. When I went to public school we had to read the real fairy tales and I didnt want any part of them. I dont send my child to public school due to what they teach so I sure wouldnt bring the stuff into my home.

Of course this is how we manage our home.

[John81]

Wait, I'm confused. Why when I say, "I don't lie to my children, they know there is no Santa Claus" but then I say "Santa Claus is just a Fairy Tale"....some of you are saying "A Fairy Tale is a lie".

Of course it is...but if the kids KNOW its not true, and they KNOW their parents buy them gifts, and that Santa is just a silly story that some silly people believe...then how is that a lie? Its not a lie in our household because my kids all know Santa doesn't buy anybody gifts and that he's just a guy in a red suit that people like to pretend about. My kids need to understand fully what Santa Claus is so that they can explain to others why we do not believe in him. I don't want people asking my kids about him and have them just look with that "deer in the headlights" look. They are able to say "Santa Claus isn't real...my parents buy our gifts."

I think maybe some of you aren't interpreting my posts correctly, or else I'm not interpreting yours. haha.

Good point Suzy. A fairy tale is fiction, if such is a lie even when it's known to simply be a make believe story, then all things fiction, whether books, radio stories, TV programs, etc., should be considered sin by Christians and avoided.

As some others have mentioned, I grew up hearing the stories of Santa Clause (as well as Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy), and once I was older and knew for sure none of them were real I never once considered I'd been lied to (it was just anothe story like Cat In The Hat) and I have never compared those stories to God/Christ or considered there to be any connection at all. God was presented consistently as real, year round and the reality of God could (and still can) be seen.

We worship God and celebrate the birth of His only begotten Son, not Santa or any other fictional or fictionized charactor.

[JerryNumbers]

I understand your feelings about the man in the read suit, I’ve been in the position of many of you. I was raised up being told about him, & raised my daughter telling her about him.

And it was not until the late 80’s, though the 90’s, that it came to me that was not good.

And I understand you see many other families teaching their children about him. And I understand many that were raise knowing the man in the red suit & it not having no effect on your belief in God.

Yet there are children that it has had a bad effect on, & if it has a bad effect on just one child, that is one to many, plus we are to only do those things that are edifying. Plus, we should do nothing that would make anyone stumble.

Finally, a lie is a lie, no matter what the lie is about. Teaching young children from the time they are born that a man in a red suit bring presents to children that are good is a lie. That in order for him to bring presents they must believe in him. That is a lie, nothing more.

Two young boys were talking. One asked the other, “what do you think about old Satan that the teacher taught us about at Sunday school?” The other boy replies, “Well its probably our father, you remember he turned out to be Santa Claus.”

As for me I don’t think highly of ‘fairy tales.’

There’s many ways for a family to have fun without deception, lies, or make believe.

Those who love the stories by C. S. Lewis, & all the junk he wrote, says its about make believe, having fun, entertainment.

Our life ought to be all about Jesus, giving Him glory. When we are meddling in lies, make believe, & junk like C. S. Lewis wrote we bring Him no glory.

Jesus always did that which pleased His Father, & He is the example we are to follow.

And of course, yes there was times when we may not have realized something we did was wrong, what actually counts is when we realize it is wrong, is to repent, confess, them do it no longer.

Of course if you take this stuff out of your life, the world will call you many things, & also many professing Christians, many of them expressing hate.

And why did the world hate Jesus, it was because He always did that which pleased His Father.

Way to many try to get the best of both sides, that is the best the world offers, & the best that God offers. I figure many of these have never been born again, if they had, their likes & dislikes would have changed. That is they would be living like the ‘new man,’ & not like the ‘old man’ they once were.

Eph 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition b

Yes, before being born again we ‘walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:’ but now we are not to be walking in those ways, the prince of this world is not to rule our lives. Our lives should be all about Jesus, & pleasing the Father just as He did.

Yet, how many of us has really overcome the world?

No put down from me. I'm not getting hostile, I'm only trying to show what it right.

[Invicta]

When I was a child, I believed in father christmas and was very upset when my sister told me he wasn't real and she is two years younger than me.

[JerryNumbers]

When I was a child, I believed in father christmas and was very upset when my sister told me he wasn't real and she is two years younger than me.

I was too! Mother reassured me. Them when I found out I had been deceived by mother, that hurt.

[byhisstrength]

I do not ever remember getting anything from Santa when I was little, I do remember visiting him a couple times at the mall or playing Santa myself for my brothers (not dressing up, just putting presents under the tree) but never went beyond that. What I do not like is that people teach kids that Santa is like God, they are making him into a god every time they say he is watching them, making sure they are good, or he will give them coal. That is when Santa becomes a problem.

[Annie]

Good points have been made on all sides of this discussion. Anyone who knows me at all (or has read my posts on this forum) knows that I'm a vocal advocate of encouraging and developing children's imaginations (which would naturally include my entering into my own children's imaginary worlds with them regularly). I would even say that without a properly developed imagination it is impossible to find any pleasure in God, or even understand the concept of God properly, since He is in the realm of "imagination" (IOW, we have to imagine Him since we cannot experience Him with our senses--He is completely intangible, a spirit we cannot see or hear or feel or touch--we believe in Him without being able to do any of these things). I should probably insert here that I do not think God is "imaginary" at all; He is more real than anything else we see around us, but the only way we can "see" Him and "know" Him is through an ability to image-ine (guided, of course, by the literature He has given us--His written Word) what He is like.

Because all of this is true, I spend a great deal of time developing my kids' moral imaginations. I love fictional/symbolical/allegorical/mythical/moral stories that point them to the truth, and reinforce the Great Truth. We read fables and moral tales (completely fictional--the animals reason and talk) and parables to teach truth about virtues and vices...like "The Tortoise and the Hare" or Dr. Seuss's "Yertle the Turtle." Properly written fairy tales like "The Princess and the Goblin" and even ones like "Cinderella" and "Snow White" teach Great Truths about living by faith not sight, developing character, attending to duty, and about good being rewarded and evil being punished, which reflects how God's world works. Christ Himself told fictional stories (parables) to teach truth in a way that just "stating the facts" couldn't.

Why do I say all of this? I guess my point is that the Santa myth can be an aid (just like the kinds of stories I mentioned above) to teaching Great Truth. Santa rewards good and punishes evil, in much the same way that parents are supposed to do. That said, I have never been comfortable in bringing Santa into the "real world" of "my living room." To my mind, it violates the purpose of the myth; it breaks the rules. Myths are myths, and they are fun and useful and good. But they are useful and good only to the extent to which they point to the Real Truth. The story of the popularized Santa is not the Real Truth, but, like any other fictional/moral story, can point to the Real Truth (that in our world, good is rewarded and evil punished). I don't want to be a party to convincing my kids that Santa is the Real Truth, or that his myth is an end in itself--how disillusioning that would be. While it might not be devastating for most kids to discover Santa's not real, The Real Truth can be only weakened by that discovery, and the moral imagination of the child would, IMO, suffer a kind of loss, whether "felt" at the time or not.

FWIW, what we do as a family is this: we tell our kids of St. Nicholas of Myra, the kindly bishop who gave gifts to children. They know the legend/history of "St. Nick." They also (through Dickens and Lewis) know about "Father Christmas," the benevolent and generous (secular) being who reflects the festive and giving spirit of this time of year. We talk *wink, wink* about Santa visiting and filling the stockings. Our all-encompassing focus as a family during Christmas time is on the Incarnated Christ; all of these other characters and events play a peripheral and supportive role. There is no contradiction; all is unified, joyful, holy. We'll never have to tell our kids that the gifts under the tree aren't from Santa after all; nothing will be lost, no innocence exploited or trodden underfoot, but only a fuller knowledge and appreciation of Christmas attained naturally, and unbroken through the years.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Annie

[JerryNumbers]

Correct me if I’m wrong.

Jesus did tell stories, are should we say parables, yet not of them were not about imaginary things anything like Snow White, Cinderella.

That is all the parables Jesus told could easily be true, real life situations & they were not fairy tales.

I disagree, it take no imagination in order for a person to believe upon the Lord.
However it does take imagination to believe on the man in the read suit, Snow White, Cinderella & the many imaginative stories man comes up with calling it harmless entertainment.

And it’s a fact, most sin is bred within the heart of imagination, the person imagines it, thinking of how much pleasure, fun, enjoyment, it would bring, them the next thing is to partake of it & its no longer imagination, its pure sin.

Sad, we have so many living in a imaginary world, & follow their ever imagination in fact most of today’s children do, because every day of their life they are playing imaginary games & they cannot separate imaginary life from real life.

Of course none of this began in our age, its been that way for many years, & it is God who has told us that fact.

Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Its quite clear where our imagination will lead us.

And once again, it take no imagination to believe in God, to believe the things the Bible tells us He has done, that a Savior, the only begotten Son was born of a virgin, that He gave His life to save us from our sin, & how we should live our life, it takes trust, belief.


Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[Annie]

Correct me if I’m wrong.

Jesus did tell stories, are should we say parables, yet not of them were not about imaginary things anything like Snow White, Cinderella.

They were fictional stories. Fantasy/fairy tales are a specific kind of fictional stories. Not all fiction is fantasy, but all fantasy is fiction. Both kinds of stories (or, really all stories we haven't personally witnessed with our senses) require imagination to understand. What is your point?

That is all the parables Jesus told could easily be true, real life situations & they were not fairy tales.

Agreed. I didn't say they were fairy tales. They were fictional (not true) stories. Whether or not the events in the parables could have happened is irrelevent, because they weren't true stories. They were just as fabricated as fantasy stories.
You know, the point is that even 100% true stories require imagination to understand. For example when I read about Amy Carmichael's missionary experiences in India, I had to use my imagination to picture those events, those sights and sounds and smells...the temples, the markets, the children she rescued. At the time of my first reading of her book, I had never tasted or even smelled curry. I had to imagine what it must smell and taste like. (Words like strong, pungent, pervasive, savory, etc., helped my imagination along...I knew it must not smell like roses or citrus, but I still had to imagine what it must smell like.)
It seems obvious to me that imagination is required to understand what one has never experienced with the senses.

I disagree, it take no imagination in order for a person to believe upon the Lord.

You've seen Him with your eyes, then, and heard Him with your ears? You've seen Jesus sitting on the right hand of God's throne? You've heard the angels rejoicing when a sinner repents? To even grasp these things, they must be imagined. You have to put an "image" in your mind (that you have not seen with your eyes) to even understand what "Jesus standing on the Father's right hand" means. Words paint pictures, and these pictures are in your imagination, since you have not experienced them with your senses. The words are meaningless without your "image-ination" creating the pictures (images) so that they can be understood.

However it does take imagination to believe on the man in the read suit, Snow White, Cinderella & the many imaginative stories man comes up with calling it harmless entertainment.

You are correct; it takes the same kind of imagination to picture these characters and their stories. What do you mean by "believing on" them?

And it’s a fact, most sin is bred within the heart of imagination, the person imagines it, thinking of how much pleasure, fun, enjoyment, it would bring, them the next thing is to partake of it & its no longer imagination, its pure sin.

Absolutely correct, Jerry. That's why it is vital to develop the moral imagination properly as children grow.

Sad, we have so many living in a imaginary world, & follow their ever imagination in fact most of today’s children do, because every day of their life they are playing imaginary games & they cannot separate imaginary life from real life.

Again, you're absolutely right. This problem is epidemic. So very many people have no concept about how to develop the moral imagination; our society has been cut loose from "morality" as described in the Bible. Imagination divorced from morality is scary indeed, and opens the mind to all kinds of wickedness: "For though we walk after the flesh, we do not war after the flesh...Casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:3-5). Edited December 30, 2011 by Annie

[Salyan]

Good points have been made on all sides of this discussion. Anyone who knows me at all (or has read my posts on this forum) knows that I'm a vocal advocate of encouraging and developing children's imaginations (which would naturally include my entering into my own children's imaginary worlds with them regularly). I would even say that without a properly developed imagination it is impossible to find any pleasure in God, or even understand the concept of God properly, since He is in the realm of "imagination" (IOW, we have to imagine Him since we cannot experience Him with our senses--He is completely intangible, a spirit we cannot see or hear or feel or touch--we believe in Him without being able to do any of these things). I should probably insert here that I do not think God is "imaginary" at all; He is more real than anything else we see around us, but the only way we can "see" Him and "know" Him is through an ability to image-ine (guided, of course, by the literature He has given us--His written Word) what He is like. Because all of this is true, I spend a great deal of time developing my kids' moral imaginations. I love fictional/symbolical/allegorical/mythical/moral stories that point them to the truth, and reinforce the Great Truth. We read fables and moral tales (completely fictional--the animals reason and talk) and parables to teach truth about virtues and vices...like "The Tortoise and the Hare" or Dr. Seuss's "Yertle the Turtle." Properly written fairy tales like "The Princess and the Goblin" and even ones like "Cinderella" and "Snow White" teach Great Truths about living by faith not sight, developing character, attending to duty, and about good being rewarded and evil being punished, which reflects how God's world works. Christ Himself told fictional stories (parables) to teach truth in a way that just "stating the facts" couldn't. Why do I say all of this? I guess my point is that the Santa myth can be an aid (just like the kinds of stories I mentioned above) to teaching Great Truth. Santa rewards good and punishes evil, in much the same way that parents are supposed to do. That said, I have never been comfortable in bringing Santa into the "real world" of "my living room." To my mind, it violates the purpose of the myth; it breaks the rules. Myths are myths, and they are fun and useful and good. But they are useful and good only to the extent to which they point to the Real Truth. The story of the popularized Santa is not the Real Truth, but, like any other fictional/moral story, can point to the Real Truth (that in our world, good is rewarded and evil punished). I don't want to be a party to convincing my kids that Santa is the Real Truth, or that his myth is an end in itself--how disillusioning that would be. While it might not be devastating for most kids to discover Santa's not real, The Real Truth could only be weakened by that discovery, and the moral imagination of the child would, IMO, suffer a kind of loss, whether "felt" at the time or not. FWIW, what we do as a family is this: we tell our kids of St. Nicholas of Myra, the kindly bishop who gave gifts to children. They know the legend/history of "St. Nick." They also (through Dickens and Lewis) know about "Father Christmas," the benevolent and generous (secular) being who reflects the giving spirit of this time of year. We talk *wink, wink* about Santa visiting and filling the stockings. Our all-encompassing focus as a family during Christmas time is on the Incarnated Christ; all of these other characters and events play a peripheral and supportive role. There is no contradiction; all is unified, joyful, holy. We'll never have to tell our kids that the gifts under the tree aren't from Santa after all; nothing will be lost, no innocence exploited or trodden underfoot, but only a fuller knowledge and appreciation of Christmas attained naturally, and unbroken through the years.

Just had to say, Annie, that this is one of the most well written articles I've read in a long time. Very nicely done!

[Annie]

Just had to say, Annie, that this is one of the most well written articles I've read in a long time. Very nicely done!

Thanks, salyan. It's kind of you to say this. I should add that I don't think ill of those who "do Santa" with their kids...I just can't bring myself to do it with mine.