Suicide and salvation?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

So, you believe that while a Christian may backslide occasionally, he will never stay in a permanent backslidden state - is that right?

If one is saved, that one will receive chastening from the Holy Spirit and will turn from that which he is doing.

Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. He did not say they might follow.

Ever watch a movie with sheep and shepherds? The sheep will follow the shepherd because they know his voice. But if the shepherd does not speak for a while, the sheep tend to stray.

We are like sheep. If we do not hear the Shepherds voice, we tend to stray. The best way to keep from straying is to stay near Him.

But because of the weakness of the flesh, if we don't hear Him constantly, we stray. But the suicide has done far worse than stray... he has proven his true nature. He was only a wolf among sheep. Edited December 19, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ

[LindaR]

Rick....

How do you interpret these verses? Do they speak of saved people or lost people?

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Do the saved "wallow in the mire" of sin? Should sin be the lifestyle of a born again Christian? Why is the dog turned again to his vomit and why did the sow/pig, that was washed return to wallowing in the mire? Could it be that this is the "nature" of the dog and pig?

These verses are used incorrectly to prove that one can lose their salvation. A born again Christian is a "new creature" in Christ Jesus. Why would someone want to return to the "mire" of sin after salvation? This does not mean we are to be sinlessly "perfect", but our lifestyle should change and our desire should be to please and obey God. The entire chapter of 2 Peter 2 is speaking of false teachers... the fact that they return to their wickedness proves that they were never regenerate.

I believe that salvation is not an excuse to live as one pleases. It is NOT simply a free ticket to heaven. A born again Christian will not "live in sin" continually without the conviction of the Holy Spirit. If there is no Holy Spirit conviction, one might want to "examine themselves" (2 Corinthians 13:5)

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

[Brother Rick]

Great question Linda, here's an excerpt from my book on that exact passage. The last chapter of my book is called "the confusing verse checklist." It gives the reader a checklist on how to figure out a tough passage on their own.

This is point number six:


6. Professors versus Possessors.

This isn’t professors as in teachers; it’s okay, if you teach at a local community college; God loves you too and you’re not going to lose your salvation.

What this point is about is people who claim to be saved but are not. This shouldn’t be any surprise: most of them you can spot without having much discernment at all. Any pastor (or hireling) that would go on a TV show and be incapable of answering simple questions about how you go to Heaven to an audience of millions is either not saved to begin with or he is a coward. He is claiming to be something he is not.

God talks about these people in very harsh terms. Sometimes people confuse these men with actual Christians and think God is talking about sending a child of God to Hell. Not true, of course.

Example:

II Peter 2:20-21, “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.”

This passage is used to teach that if you are overcome by sin you’ll lose your salvation. The list of problems with this interpretation is very long, but suffice it to say these are people who never got saved in the first place. They lived clean lives because they had a head knowledge of the Bible and Christ, but they never received Him by faith.

How do we know they’re lost and were never saved to begin with?

1. They’re dogs, not sheep (Vs. 22). A lost man is a dog in the Bible; a saved man is a sheep and a new creature in Christ.

2. They’re “wells without water” (Vs. 17). Christians are wells with water (John 4:14).

3. They’re “brute beasts,” not sheep (Vs. 12).

4. They can not cease from sin (Vs. 14). A Christian can overcome sin.

5. They’re “cursed children” (Vs. 14), not children of God.

6. They turned away from the holy commandment. The holy commandment is to believe on Christ in I John 3:23. They never did; they turned away from it.

7. They are servants of corruption, and even though they promise liberty to their audience, they themselves are earning the reward of unrighteousness (Vs. 19, 13).

So when you come across a verse that may look like a person can lose his salvation, it’s important to consider if the person in the passage was ever truly saved in the first place.


~~~~


I think one of the things we as believers in the doctrine of Eternal Security lose sight of is that fact that there are severe consequences for someone that backslides. I don't believe that God removes people's free will upon conversion, so they can still backslide (yes, fruit will be shown in the life of a believer but to say they won't backslide ever or at some point 'give up' like Demas did is not supported by Scripture) on a permanent basis. However, Christians cannot just 'willy-nilly' give up on God and follow after the old nature without suffering some consequences. I have a chapter in my book called 'the ten things a Christian really can lose' and it points out what can happen to a Christian like Demas.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[JerryNumbers]

If one is saved, that one will receive chastening from the Holy Spirit and will turn from that which he is doing.

Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. He did not say they might follow.

Ever watch a movie with sheep and shepherds? The sheep will follow the shepherd because they know his voice. But if the shepherd does not speak for a while, the sheep tend to stray.

We are like sheep. If we do not hear the Shepherds voice, we tend to stray. The best way to keep from straying is to stay near Him.

But because of the weakness of the flesh, if we don't hear Him constantly, we stray. But the suicide has done far worse than stray... he has proven his true nature. He was only a wolf among sheep.

Are you saying a person that commits suicide is not saved?

If the answer to be above question is yes, them what other sins do you believe a saved person will not commit?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Jerry, that is exactly what I am saying.

A saved person can sin, as is evident by Paul' s seventh chapter in his epistle to the Romans. But as I pointed out, a saved person will confess his sin and turn from it.

Now, if you can show me how one can confess after suicide, repent and begin living for Christ again, I will be glad to listen.

[LindaR]

Rick...

Thank you for your response, but I was not questioning eternal security...I believe in the eternal security of the born again believer. However, I do not believe a born again believer will "continue in sin" as a lifestyle...and live as he/she pleases. Salvation does make a difference...it does not make us sinless, but we do sin "less".

Edited December 20, 2011 by LindaR

[JerryNumbers]

Jerry, that is exactly what I am saying.

A saved person can sin, as is evident by Paul' s seventh chapter in his epistle to the Romans. But as I pointed out, a saved person will confess his sin and turn from it.

Now, if you can show me how one can confess after suicide, repent and begin living for Christ again, I will be glad to listen.

So you believe there are certain sins a saved person commit will cause them to lose their salvation.

Could you name all the sins a saved person can commit that will make them lose their salvation?

Plus, you don't really believe John 3:16 which says, 'but have everlasting life?'

[JerryNumbers]

Rick...

Thank you for your response, but I was not questioning eternal security...I believe in the eternal security of the born again believer. However, I do not believe a born again believer will "continue in sin" as a lifestyle...and live as he/she pleases. Salvation does make a difference...it does not make us sinless, but we do sin "less".

True, but them there are those that believes the saved person, if they sin, or at least if they commit certain sins, they lose their salvation.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Jerry, please go back and read my posts. I never said a saved person could lose his or her Salvation. I said some will prove that they never were saved to begin with.

[LindaR]

It appears that there are some here who are trying to "justify" committing suicide.;Is this discussion moving towards giving a born again Christian an excuse to commit suicide? What ever happened to "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding"? (Proverbs 3:5) As born again Christians do we not believe in the faithfulness of God "who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able"? (1 Cor. 10:13)

[John81]

I don't think there is any justification for committing any sin but committing suicide is a one time sin, not a lifestyle. How would a Christian who gives into the temptation to commit suicide be any different than the Christian who gives in to the temptation to commit adultery and dies of a heart attack or in a car crash before they repent?

Scripture says that when a person is born again, all their sins are forgiven, ALL, past, present and future. As long as we live the Holy Ghost will seek to correct us when we sin but if a believer dies before they have repented of a specific sin that doesn't mean they were never saved or have lost salvation.

There was a man in this community that was hit by some disease that effected his mind. He was put on medication which one of the possible side effects is that it causes some to have suicidal thoughts or to commit suicide. This man packed his dinner, went out to his car, started his car to head to their farm and then took a gun that he carried in the car and killed himself. From all the evidence available he didn't plan this. Does the fact he killed himself nullify all the years of walking in the Spirit after his profession of faith?

Scripture doesn't tell us that suicide is the unpardonable sin and Scripture doesn't say that Christians are unable to commit suicide. No doubt such a drastic sin as suicide should be extremely rare among Christians, but Scripture doesn't indicate that this sin is impossible for a born again Christian to commit.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Matthew 7:17-19 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

You say rejection of Christ is the only thing that will send a person to hell, and I agree.

But you must realize that suicide is the ultimate rejection of Christ. It is the act of listening to another shepherd offering another way out of trials.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Edited December 20, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ

[JerryNumbers]

Jerry, please go back and read my posts. I never said a saved person could lose his or her Salvation. I said some will prove that they never were saved to begin with.

I've read every post, but your confusing me.

Them are you saying when one commits suicide that means they were never saved?

[JerryNumbers]

I don't think there is any justification for committing any sin but committing suicide is a one time sin, not a lifestyle. How would a Christian who gives into the temptation to commit suicide be any different than the Christian who gives in to the temptation to commit adultery and dies of a heart attack or in a car crash before they repent?

Scripture says that when a person is born again, all their sins are forgiven, ALL, past, present and future. As long as we live the Holy Ghost will seek to correct us when we sin but if a believer dies before they have repented of a specific sin that doesn't mean they were never saved or have lost salvation.

There was a man in this community that was hit by some disease that effected his mind. He was put on medication which one of the possible side effects is that it causes some to have suicidal thoughts or to commit suicide. This man packed his dinner, went out to his car, started his car to head to their farm and then took a gun that he carried in the car and killed himself. From all the evidence available he didn't plan this. Does the fact he killed himself nullify all the years of walking in the Spirit after his profession of faith?

Scripture doesn't tell us that suicide is the unpardonable sin and Scripture doesn't say that Christians are unable to commit suicide. No doubt such a drastic sin as suicide should be extremely rare among Christians, but Scripture doesn't indicate that this sin is impossible for a born again Christian to commit.

Beats me, but maybe its because they believe the one who commits suicide cannot ask for forgiveness, because of that they are doomed to hell.

If I remember correctly the RCC believes along that line of thought.