Conservatism versus hyper-conservatism?

[farouk]

My pastor preached a very good message a few weeks back. He preached on the liberty of Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. He preached that there is an even balance of living in liberty and puting oneself under bondage and subjecting oneself to rules that don't exist. While I have seen many people do this including myself when I was growing up, I am thankful that God brought me out of the bondage I put myself in. As I have said before, Christianity isn't about a set of rules that says do this, don't do that and living in fear of judgment. These rules may exist, but it is about the relationship with Christ. As a person grows closer to Christ, he/she will want to follow Christ and be Christ-like. I generally can have fellowship with people who put themselves under bondage, but it can be quite difficult when they start accusing me and judging me of not following Scriptures even though Scripture may not be clear on the matter (ex. playing cards).

amblivion:

Good post, ty.

Sounds like a good sermon that you heard. Edited August 6, 2011 by farouk

[HappyChristian]

Good posts! Christians do indeed have liberty (btw - the liberty in 2 Cor 3:17 is talking about freedom from sin, not the right to do whatever we want - amblivion, I know you're not promoting that...I just wanted to clarify myself). And many people seem to forget that, painting invisible arrows on the foreheads of people who don't do exactly as they do. But.......

We have to be careful that we understand liberty. We are to "stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free..." Gal. 5 is an outstanding chapter on liberty. But there is a verse so many Christians ignore..."For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion for the flesh, but by love serve one another." Verse 13.

Using liberty for occasion for the flesh is called license, or licentiousness. So-called "Christian liberty" (I put it in quotes and said so-called because that is not actually a biblical term) does not free us up to live a free thinking lifestyle. We are still to obey scripture - commands, precepts, principles and patterns are all there for us to follow.

In 1 Pet. 2:16, we're told to not use our liberty for a cloak of maliciousness - wrongdoing, trouble, living any way we feel like and proclaiming liberty...

2 Pet. 2:19 tells us of false teachers who promise liberty but actually bring bondage...because when we convince ourselves that our liberty as Christians okays us to do certain things that might be questionable - we put ourselves back under the bondage of sin from which Christ freed us.

Liberty is the fence around our Christian yard: If we stay within the bounds of that fence (God's Word), we will not get entangled again with the affairs of the world (that doesn't mean we won't live....we are still in the world, just not of it) and sin. We have the freedom to roam all over our Christian yard, but not to go outside it.

Jude talks about those wolves who come in and turn God's grace into licensiousness...we aren't to follow them. That is one of the reasons for standards in churches, whether it be music, dress, etc. The Bible says a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. It doesn't take long for sin to spread. So, if someone appears hyper-conservative, mayhap they are just concerned with making sure their liberty doesn't turn the grace of God into laciviousness.

Following the fads of the world is just that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't look nice, won't have a decent car or a nice house. It means we won't actively pursue that which the world holds in such high esteem - and we won't try to reason our way into causing others to lower their standards just because we believe that our liberty allows us to do things. Again, remember, liberty is not license. We are liberated from sin. We are liberated from the law. But we are not liberated from doing what is right. We are not liberated to do as we please and claim Christian liberty.

[Annie]

Right...I think the "issues" discussions arise more because we don't understand Romans 14 properly. We tend to condemn when others view various issues (pants, literature choices, public school, etc.) differently than we do, even though their choices are being informed by Scripture just as much as ours are. "Worldly" is a handy (but misused) term to throw at others' practices in these discussions. This term supposedly trumps whatever the other person is saying, but it really doesn't advance the discussion any, or prove anything.

[John81]

Our liberty is not to be used as an occasion to sin. We are to represent Christ in all we say and do. Our appearance should honour Christ. Dressing immodestly, participating in worldly endeavors, entertaining ourselves with what Scripture says is sin, and all such matters cannot be done to the glory of God and are something Christians are commanded not to be a part of.

Christ gave His life for us yet some of us think we have some right or liberty to do as we please. For the glory of God should we not be willing to wear modest clothing rather than what we might prefer? Should we not be more than willing to forsake the ways of the world to give our all for Christ just as He did for us?

Professing Christians are to be growing in spritiual maturity, becoming more Christlike, pursuing holiness. Remaining childish, demanding our own way is rebuked in Scripture. We are to deny self, that means we are to put away selfishness and do ALL for the glory of God.

[Annie]

Our liberty is not to be used as an occasion to sin. We are to represent Christ in all we say and do. Our appearance should honour Christ. Dressing immodestly, participating in worldly endeavors, entertaining ourselves with what Scripture says is sin, and all such matters cannot be done to the glory of God and are something Christians are commanded not to be a part of.

Christ gave His life for us yet some of us think we have some right or liberty to do as we please. For the glory of God should we not be willing to wear modest clothing rather than what we might prefer? Should we not be more than willing to forsake the ways of the world to give our all for Christ just as He did for us?

Professing Christians are to be growing in spritiual maturity, becoming more Christlike, pursuing holiness. Remaining childish, demanding our own way is rebuked in Scripture. We are to deny self, that means we are to put away selfishness and do ALL for the glory of God.

I agree completely...and so would every Christian seeking to follow Christ with devotion. But that doesn't mean that there won't be disagreement when it comes to practical issues...and I think that's what the OP is talking about. People are so quick to label another Christian as "worldly" without explaining why, as if this word trumps everything else the other person is saying. We shouldn't be so prideful as to write someone else off just because they apply Scripture differently than we do.

[John81]

Is a woman dressed modestly if she is wearing a bikini in the company of those not her husband?

Is a woman playing sports wearing short, tight shorts or a mini- skirt and clingy top dressed modestly?

These and other issues have been discussed recently with some saying there is nothing wrong with either yet Scripture is clear as to the fact both are immodest.

No doubt there are some things where folks might have room for discussion on a matter, but in many areas, such as these two examples, Scripture is very clear and attempts to lump these sort of things into an area where some feel they have "liberty" is wrong and often deception.

[John81]

1 John 2:3-6

King James Version (KJV)


³And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
⁴He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
⁵But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
⁶He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

[amblivion]

Is a woman dressed modestly if she is wearing a bikini in the company of those not her husband?

Is a woman playing sports wearing short, tight shorts or a mini- skirt and clingy top dressed modestly?

These and other issues have been discussed recently with some saying there is nothing wrong with either yet Scripture is clear as to the fact both are immodest.

No doubt there are some things where folks might have room for discussion on a matter, but in many areas, such as these two examples, Scripture is very clear and attempts to lump these sort of things into an area where some feel they have "liberty" is wrong and often deception.

While I agree with your two questions being immodest, there have been other topics on this board that do have room for discussion. Some believe that all organized sports for women are wrong, and others believe that some organized sports for women are wrong. Then there are some who believe that no organized sports are wrong for women. We have also recently had topics on earrings on women and high heels. Since I have been a member of the board, I have seen many topics discussed that the Bible is not clear on, yet people take a hard stance on them and judge anyone who does not agree with them.

[rancher824]

If one looks worldly (inappropriate jewelry, immodest clothing, etc), walks worldly (doing worldly things), and talks worldly, then one must be worldly (and not walking right with God). A child walking/striving to walk with The Lord should not be anything like this. We are called to be separate. We should look different, act different (when compared to the world).

Call me conservative, call me narrow-minded....I'm as narrow minded as God's word.

If we really look at this, do ANY of us men really put aside worldly whatever and totally walk as Christ? Do any of us men walk in a way to stand out, or do we try to fit into the world? For example lets look at our dress. I (so I am not pointing fingers at anyone more than myself) get up every morning and put on my jeans. No I do not wear them skin tight, but still I wear them. On Sunday I put on either good jeans or dress slacks (yes I know if I was truelly "Godly" it would be a suit)and a dress shirt. But my question is where do we get jeans and slacks? Is this what Jesus wore? Or does this dress stile come from the world? If we look to Gen. we find God made Adam and Eve coats. It says nothing of her a dress and him slacks, just coats. From this I picture what we would call a trench coat or overcoat that hangs loose down to at least the knees, if not ankles. Elsewhere in scripture we find the men girding their loins for certain activities (certain work, or running). I see this as them taking the hanging of their robe (or coat in Gen.) and tying it (with some sort of belt) up so it did not get in the way, or be tripped over if running.The closest thing we find to pants in scripture would be the linnen breeches for the priest. But they are specified as being to the knee, not to the ankles. I see them as being worn UNDER the robe (or coat) in such a way as to cover in the unfortunate event of the wind or something causing the robe to come up, making them immodest. I do not see it as being something that was to be seen. If we look at the Bedouin Arabs today we see much the type of coats that I see in Gen. It is my understanding that until the last 100 years or so the Jews dressed much in this way (until the western worldly ways seeped in). This would also be much the way Jesus himself dressed being a Jew. Would we not stand out as a peculiar people more if we put aside the worldly attire and dressed as Jesus did? Would the world not see a bigger difference if when they met us on the street we were wearing what our Lord wore? Would it not make us much easier to spot?

[John81]

While I agree with your two questions being immodest, there have been other topics on this board that do have room for discussion. Some believe that all organized sports for women are wrong, and others believe that some organized sports for women are wrong. Then there are some who believe that no organized sports are wrong for women. We have also recently had topics on earrings on women and high heels. Since I have been a member of the board, I have seen many topics discussed that the Bible is not clear on, yet people take a hard stance on them and judge anyone who does not agree with them.

As I said, there are some things where there is room for discussion, but more often than not there are those who are not really interested in discussing those but more interested in expanding an issue as if it must also give acceptance to the idea, for instance, that women can wear bikinis in public simply because they think it's okay.

The most recent posts I recall touching on women and earrings is a good example. The thread topic was about men and a piercing but someone kept attempting to tie that to women and earrings. It's difficult, if not virtually impossible, to actually discuss a particular point when there are those who want to bring several other side issues into the mix.

The point I'm trying to make is that if we are truly seeking the truth of a matter we shouldn't see so many other things tossed into a discussion that really are not related, are not on point, or have been clearly shown through Scripture to not apply.

I'm not sure how clear this is coming out written, I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say.

[John81]

If we really look at this, do ANY of us men really put aside worldly whatever and totally walk as Christ? Do any of us men walk in a way to stand out, or do we try to fit into the world? For example lets look at our dress. I (so I am not pointing fingers at anyone more than myself) get up every morning and put on my jeans. No I do not wear them skin tight, but still I wear them. On Sunday I put on either good jeans or dress slacks (yes I know if I was truelly "Godly" it would be a suit)and a dress shirt. But my question is where do we get jeans and slacks? Is this what Jesus wore? Or does this dress stile come from the world? If we look to Gen. we find God made Adam and Eve coats. It says nothing of her a dress and him slacks, just coats. From this I picture what we would call a trench coat or overcoat that hangs loose down to at least the knees, if not ankles. Elsewhere in scripture we find the men girding their loins for certain activities (certain work, or running). I see this as them taking the hanging of their robe (or coat in Gen.) and tying it (with some sort of belt) up so it did not get in the way, or be tripped over if running.The closest thing we find to pants in scripture would be the linnen breeches for the priest. But they are specified as being to the knee, not to the ankles. I see them as being worn UNDER the robe (or coat) in such a way as to cover in the unfortunate event of the wind or something causing the robe to come up, making them immodest. I do not see it as being something that was to be seen. If we look at the Bedouin Arabs today we see much the type of coats that I see in Gen. It is my understanding that until the last 100 years or so the Jews dressed much in this way (until the western worldly ways seeped in). This would also be much the way Jesus himself dressed being a Jew. Would we not stand out as a peculiar people more if we put aside the worldly attire and dressed as Jesus did? Would the world not see a bigger difference if when they met us on the street we were wearing what our Lord wore? Would it not make us much easier to spot?

We are not commanded to dress as Jesus did, or as Adam and Eve were dressed, but we are commanded to dress modestly and in a way that is God honouring.

Clothing in and of itself isn't "worldly", but it can become worldly when it's designed or worn in a way that violates the Word of God.

Comfortable fitting blues jeans on a man is just clothing. Tight fitting blue jeans designed to accent certain parts of his body are worldly because they are immodest.

A loose fitting t-shirt on a man is just clothing. If that same shirt is taken and someone puts a picture of a bikini girl or profane words on it then that shirt has been made worldly.

Most of us have seen different women wearing the same style of dress and one wears it modestly while the other wears it in an immodest way. The dress itself isn't the issue, but the way it's worn, which reflects upon heart of the wearer and upon the Lord if that person claims to be a Christian.

When I was much younger I liked to wear tank tops and tight t-shirts because they showed off my muscles and I liked the reaction from women. I didn't realize it at the time but I was dressing immodestly and when the Lord brought that to my attention I stopped dressing that way.

I can only speak for myself, but I do try to dress in a way that is modest and won't cast any bad reflection upon the Lord. I don't wear clothing that has anything on it that is or might be seen as bad. I won't wear a hat or shirt from a beer company or a shirt that has a car on it with an immodestly dressed woman in the background, etc. I used to wear a biker style leather jacket because it's windproof, has lots of pockets and I liked the way it felt but I stopped wearing that because of the possible false impression it gave some people.

All that we have and use is made in this world but that doesn't necessarily make it all worldly. Being worldly is a matter of sin and wickedness and that's what we are to separate from.

[rancher824]

We are not commanded to dress as Jesus did, or as Adam and Eve were dressed, but we are commanded to dress modestly and in a way that is God honouring.

Clothing in and of itself isn't "worldly", but it can become worldly when it's designed or worn in a way that violates the Word of God.

Comfortable fitting blues jeans on a man is just clothing. Tight fitting blue jeans designed to accent certain parts of his body are worldly because they are immodest.

A loose fitting t-shirt on a man is just clothing. If that same shirt is taken and someone puts a picture of a bikini girl or profane words on it then that shirt has been made worldly.

Most of us have seen different women wearing the same style of dress and one wears it modestly while the other wears it in an immodest way. The dress itself isn't the issue, but the way it's worn, which reflects upon heart of the wearer and upon the Lord if that person claims to be a Christian.

When I was much younger I liked to wear tank tops and tight t-shirts because they showed off my muscles and I liked the reaction from women. I didn't realize it at the time but I was dressing immodestly and when the Lord brought that to my attention I stopped dressing that way.

I can only speak for myself, but I do try to dress in a way that is modest and won't cast any bad reflection upon the Lord. I don't wear clothing that has anything on it that is or might be seen as bad. I won't wear a hat or shirt from a beer company or a shirt that has a car on it with an immodestly dressed woman in the background, etc. I used to wear a biker style leather jacket because it's windproof, has lots of pockets and I liked the way it felt but I stopped wearing that because of the possible false impression it gave some people.

All that we have and use is made in this world but that doesn't necessarily make it all worldly. Being worldly is a matter of sin and wickedness and that's what we are to separate from.

I realize there is no direct command. But what about biblical principal? When God clothed man, he did so with a coat not pants. So we can ask right there why, if pants are what we should wear, did God not put Adam in a pair of pants? Nowhere in the Bible is a man found wearing pants. The closest thing is when they girded for a certain reason, and that was undone as soon as they were finished. God does command for us to be a peculiar people. This would include doing things that make us stand out would it not? And in this day and age would dressing the way Christ did not make us stand out? It would make us dress "Christlike". Another question, why do we wear pants or jeans? Is it because they are actually better than a coat or robe, or is it because those around us are wearing them? And if they are better, again why did God not put Adam in them?

[John81]

I realize there is no direct command. But what about biblical principal? When God clothed man, he did so with a coat not pants. So we can ask right there why, if pants are what we should wear, did God not put Adam in a pair of pants? Nowhere in the Bible is a man found wearing pants. The closest thing is when they girded for a certain reason, and that was undone as soon as they were finished. God does command for us to be a peculiar people. This would include doing things that make us stand out would it not? And in this day and age would dressing the way Christ did not make us stand out? It would make us dress "Christlike". Another question, why do we wear pants or jeans? Is it because they are actually better than a coat or robe, or is it because those around us are wearing them? And if they are better, again why did God not put Adam in them?

From my understanding, when it says in Genesis God put coats on them this is meaning he put a coating, a covering on them, not a literal coat as we would call such today. We are not told exactly what manner of covering, or coating, the Lord put upon them, only that whatever it was covered them.

We know from elsewhere in Scripture that men were not wearing "coats" (as we know them) but were wearing robes. We don't read of a condemnation of specific clothing types in Scripture, but we do read that what we wear is to be modest and men should wear mens clothes and women should wear womens clothes.

The biblical principle for clothing is that it be modest, pertaining to the sex that wears it, and that it be not worn in a sinful manner. A nice jacket can become a piece of worldly clothing if a sinful patch is placed upon it.

Our separation is to be from sin. There are those who are not Christians who yet separate themselves from certain sins, that doesn't mean we should no longer follow that practice.

What we wear should not reflect sin, should not bring any reproach to the name of Christ.

[rancher824]

From my understanding, when it says in Genesis God put coats on them this is meaning he put a coating, a covering on them, not a literal coat as we would call such today. We are not told exactly what manner of covering, or coating, the Lord put upon them, only that whatever it was covered them.

We know from elsewhere in Scripture that men were not wearing "coats" (as we know them) but were wearing robes. We don't read of a condemnation of specific clothing types in Scripture, but we do read that what we wear is to be modest and men should wear mens clothes and women should wear womens clothes.

The biblical principle for clothing is that it be modest, pertaining to the sex that wears it, and that it be not worn in a sinful manner. A nice jacket can become a piece of worldly clothing if a sinful patch is placed upon it.

Our separation is to be from sin. There are those who are not Christians who yet separate themselves from certain sins, that doesn't mean we should no longer follow that practice.

What we wear should not reflect sin, should not bring any reproach to the name of Christ.

Actually we can find from scripture that they were wearing coats. Perhaps not what we think of a coat (something to keep us warm in the winter or a suit coat to look fancy), but rather a hanging garment we find 20 verses through the Bible that use the word coat, including Josephs coat of many colors. We find Peter put on his coat because he was naked (John 21:7). It was at least a part of their normal wardrobe. But whether you want to see this or not, as you said they wore robes in Christs time. What was a robe? did it have legs that showed the shape of the mans body, or did it hang loosely? What changed what we wear? Was it not Christians following the world? Was it not us changing our standards to fit in? I know you have mentioned before that each generation condemns the new dress styles but accepts the ones that the last generation condemned. Is it not possible that at one time our ancestors were condemning these men who were putting off there robes to were these worldly pants?

[farouk]

While I agree with your two questions being immodest, there have been other topics on this board that do have room for discussion. Some believe that all organized sports for women are wrong, and others believe that some organized sports for women are wrong. Then there are some who believe that no organized sports are wrong for women. We have also recently had topics on earrings on women and high heels. Since I have been a member of the board, I have seen many topics discussed that the Bible is not clear on, yet people take a hard stance on them and judge anyone who does not agree with them.

amblivion:

Re. the sports thing, I kind of bowed out of the discussion on the other thread.

Re. the earrings & heels, I doubt whether they should be regarded as controversial, either.

Blessings.