Two Kingdoms?

[Brother Rick]

Hahaha... brother, Invicta.... those were jokes.... nevermind.

[John81]

I do find it interesting that different sides seem to insist their view is the most literal yet at the same time, the different sides take some aspects that seem as if they should be viewed literally and yet they don't fit their view that way so those aspects become "spiritual" or determined to have "open meaning".

Along these lines, a couple days ago I was reading a sermon by Billy Sunday. In that sermon he was discussing things related to the Second Coming. Sunday mentioned the "7 year tribulation". Then he went on to say that we don't know how long it will last, saying it could last 700 years, but he is certain it won't last less than 7 years, but however long it does last, God will have to shorten it rather than letting it run its course.

[JerryNumbers]

No wonder the old devil is having so much success, few there be that believes our adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour is out seeking whom he may devour.

That sure makes hi work much easier for him and his helpers.

[Covenanter]

I didn't realise that they had lightbulbs in AD 70.

No. They used Christians with their clothes soaked in pitch during the great tribulation.

Rick, your "jokes" make no contribution to a serious discussion - especially as you totally reject the "time indicators" in Revelation that require an interpretation before AD 70.
e.g.
Rev 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
....
3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.
....
9 ¶ I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, ....

Rev 11:1 ¶ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
...

[Covenanter]

No wonder the old devil is having so much success, few there be that believes our adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour is out seeking whom he may devour.

That sure makes hi work much easier for him and his helpers.

Have you read my post #40 ?

[JerryNumbers]

Have you read my post #40 ?

I used the words, 'few there be,' do you feel included with those? Please notice, I did not point out anyone one individual.

[dantheman2]

Did you hear about the tragedy at the preterist convention?

An elevator car at the hotel crashed when they tried to pack in 2000 lbs of people when the capacity clearly read "1000 lbs."

I suppose that you are trying to call me a "preterist?" I am not certain as to why you would so label me but if you wish to label me feel free; your labels do not make me such.

I suppose that we have to turn to jokes now since we don't have a reasonable argument.

[Seth Doty]

By the way, show me one verse which says that Christ will ever set foot on this earth again. Nothing in the Bible says He will. We Christians are going to meet Him in the air.

"Zechariah 14:1-5 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. "

[dantheman2]

"Zechariah 14:1-5 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. "

Nice try Seth, but that passage is not speaking about Christ's 2nd Coming.

[Seth Doty]

Nice try Seth, but that passage is not speaking about Christ's 2nd Coming.

I don't know what else it is speaking of then. The mount of olives is clearly intact at this point in time, there is no "great valley". Also ending the passage with "and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee." is about as clear as it can get. Nothing subtle there. The second coming is no secret, God was sending prophets to talk about it even before the time of the flood.

"Jude 1:14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

[Covenanter]

Zechariah is a fascinating study. I have preached through it. It is an essential study in conjunction with the Revelation. My concern, guided by the Lord in Luke 24, is to see the prophecies in terms of the intertestamental period, leading up to the life & work of Jesus & his Apostles. I do not think it is sound exegesis to "divide" it into different dispensations, though of course, God's eternal purpose is to bring about the resurrection & final judgement.

Thus: 1. Look for application to the people of the time;
2. Look for fulfilment in the intertestamental period;
3. Look for fulfilment in the life & ministry of Jesus;
4. Look for application & fulfilment in the Apostolic period;
5. Bear in mind God's eternal purposes.

We need to be aware of Jesus' attitude to the OT, Law, Psalms & Prophets: Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Zec. 1:1 to 9:8 is basically encouragement to the people who returned with Zerubbabel & Joshua to continue the temple rebuilding, know the LORD is with them, & has eternal purposes for them.

The remaining chapters contain many prophecies directly applicable to the Lord Jesus & his saving work interspersed with prophecies that are not obviously directly applicable & disps take these as yet future "end times" prophecies. We need a closer look at these.

It's Palm Sunday, so we read: 9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. What could be clearer or more direct?

We read on: 10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;

More difficult, but by that prophecy the Messiah will be King of peace, over the whole earth, & will deliver prisoners by the blood of thy covenant. The waterless pit is the grave, or hell.

Verses 13-15 show the LORD defending his people. There would be over 500 years to the coming of the Messiah.

Then we see the salvation of the LORD's people - precious stones in his crown! 16 And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
17 For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.

That echoes the prophecy in Zec. 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

100 years later, Malachi gives similar encouragement: 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.


Continued.

Edited April 17, 2011 by Covenanter

[Covenanter]

I think/hope that there is general agreement that "Israel" means in context either:
the natural descendants of Abraham through Isaac & Jacob, circumcised only in flesh,
or the redeemed people of God circumcised in heart, both Jew & Gentile.

The promises apply particularly to the redeemed people of God. There are many promises of the glorious restoration of Israel in the OT, including Zechariah, but these are not repeated in the NT as prophecy. Rather, they are claimed as fulfilled in Christ. e.g. Rom. 15, & the songs of John's father Mary, Zecharias, & Simeon, & the sermons in Acts.

[Covenanter]

Zec. 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
....
1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

We see that fulfilled at Pentecost:
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus quotes Zec. 13 as fulfilled when the disciples were scattered at his arrest.
6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Verses 8 & 9 begin with "And" so must be a consequence of the smiting. Zec has been very concerned at corrupt shepherds & the LORD taking responsibility for the sheep. After Pentecost, Israel was very divided between believers & those who totally rejected their Messiah & persecuted believers. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad.

That persecution continued until Jesus Olivet warnings were apparent & the believers fled the city before its destruction. Those are the third part who enjoy the oft-repeated covenant relationship - I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

2 Cor. 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Continued

[Seth Doty]

The promises apply particularly to the redeemed people of God. There are many promises of the glorious restoration of Israel in the OT, including Zechariah, but these are not repeated in the NT as prophecy.

That is not completely accurate as there are some cases where they are repeated as prophecy, yet as a general pattern it is true for the simple reason that the NT is for Christians and is thus is not directly concerned with the nation of Israel. Prophecy of the restoration of Israel is found primarily in the OT. Israel is not restored based on the promises in the NT, but as a fulfillment of Gods covenant with Abraham and the Jewish people.

Rather, they are claimed as fulfilled in Christ. e.g. Rom. 15, & the songs of John's father Mary, Zecharias, & Simeon, & the sermons in Acts.

the question is not whether or not they are fulfilled in Christ, that is an area where there is generally agreement, the question is WHEN they are fulfilled in Christ.

Take what the angel said when he appeared to Mary:

"Luke 1:28-33 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Christ does not yet hold the throne of "his father David" nor is he "reigning" over the house of Jacob. They have currently rejected Christ and that part is still yet to be fulfilled prophecy while the part about Mary conceiving was for that time. Prophecy very often skips quite suddenly between his first and second coming.

For example:

"Luke 4:17-22And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth."

Christ is here reading OT prophecy about himself, however, he literally stopped in mid sentence when reading the prophecy. Why? because at the place where he stopped the prophecy suddenly switched from speaking of his first coming to his second coming. The time was not yet right for the rest of the passage which speaks of his judgement of the world and the restoration of Israel.

Here is the OT passage he read from:

Isaiah 61:1-3 The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,(Christ stops here) and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. Edited April 17, 2011 by Seth-Doty

[Invicta]

Here is the OT passage he read from:

Isaiah 61:1-3 The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,(Christ stops here) and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Well he did partly finish it in Luke
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. HERE
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


This referred to AD66, when the believing Jews took notice of the Lord's command and fled the city. Edited April 17, 2011 by Invicta