A Foolish and Unconstitutional War

[Wilchbla]

Now every time some new rebel group pops up in the Mid East in the name of "democracy" (democracy in the Mid East really means "theocracy" since that's what the people want) they can expect us to come to their aid militarily and financially. I really believe America's constent meddling in that region is helping bring in an Islamic caliphate that will be twice the size as the USA. The same time our troops our helping build mosques and madrasahs in Iraq and Afghanistan they are also being taught that homosexuality is normal behavior and forced to accept it. Our military is finished and I would never recommend anyone joining it.

[John81]

Now every time some new rebel group pops up in the Mid East in the name of "democracy" (democracy in the Mid East really means "theocracy" since that's what the people want) they can expect us to come to their aid militarily and financially. I really believe America's constent meddling in that region is helping bring in an Islamic caliphate that will be twice the size as the USA. The same time our troops our helping build mosques and madrasahs in Iraq and Afghanistan they are also being taught that homosexuality is normal behavior and forced to accept it. Our military is finished and I would never recommend anyone joining it.

I heard vets who served in Iraq talk about how they had to sit back and do nothing as Muslim law and culture was allowed to go unchecked even when it involved the abuse of women and children, even to the point of them being murdered. Some have spoke of how they had to hide their Christian beliefs while giving aid to the rebuilding of Mosques and the protection of them and their radical clerics. Several have said the longer they were in Iraq the more they wondered what the real point of them being there was. They feel their time there was wasted and only served to prop up Isalmists who hate us.

[JerryNumbers]

Now every time some new rebel group pops up in the Mid East in the name of "democracy" (democracy in the Mid East really means "theocracy" since that's what the people want) they can expect us to come to their aid militarily and financially. I really believe America's constent meddling in that region is helping bring in an Islamic caliphate that will be twice the size as the USA. The same time our troops our helping build mosques and madrasahs in Iraq and Afghanistan they are also being taught that homosexuality is normal behavior and forced to accept it. Our military is finished and I would never recommend anyone joining it.

I've stated that on here and got hammered a bit. Your right, the rules have changed very much in just the last few years. I do not understand how a good Christian can serve in it, more especially as a Chaplin. For they have to sign on the line giving up true Bible teachings about God and Christ. I served back in the last half of the 60's, I could no longer do so.


My patriotism is all towards God, in the military service I would have to put country before God.

[DennisD]

I've stated that on here and got hammered a bit. Your right, the rules have changed very much in just the last few years. I do not understand how a good Christian can serve in it, more especially as a Chaplin. For they have to sign on the line giving up true Bible teachings about God and Christ. I served back in the last half of the 60's, I could no longer do so.


My patriotism is all towards God, in the military service I would have to put country before God.

You could probably say this about most jobs/businesses if you want to be very critical (businesses that allow homosexuals to work for them, allow or encourage sensually dressed women/men, encourage dog eat dog business practices, throw "beer" get togethers after work, etc). I think it has more to do with the Christian then the job, but I understand where you are coming from. I have prayed fervently that God would lead me out of the military if that is His will. I have been very open and even diligently searching for some path God might provide or show me...but have yet to see it. Could I have missed it? Maybe, but I feel He would have made it very clear. Could still happen I suppose.

When this whole Libya thing started we went to about 12+ days and 7 day a week work schedules (about the same we'd work while deployed). My boss came up to me the first week and asked if I would like to go to Church on Sunday, I said yes and he gave me the day off. He's continued to give me Sunday's off for Church. I've stated in the past the military is a cesspool for sin but it also seems to have more tolerance for real Christians than any business/job I know of (except the ministry of course).

My patriotism in the last 5 years (more so in the last 1-2 years) has steadily gone in favor of God. Why would I have to put patriotism of country before God in the military service? Just curious where you are coming from. What constitutes patriotism in your eyes? Is staying at work late on Wednesday night because I'm ordered to and missing service that night putting work before God? I've talked to my Pastor about this and he seems to think that it's not, you've been to our Church website...you say the Statement of Faith looks just like yours. You actually remind me a lot of my Pastor. He is very critical of the way the military is going, he served near the end of Vietnam...got ran over by a tank and has only one arm now. He's very adamant about being patriotic to both God and country but definitely more so towards God. He doesn't believe missing Church due to being ordered to work (this goes for any job) is something that would make you a bad Christian unless you look to stay at work or something like that. He's also of the mind, if your job is going to make you always work on Sundays...quit and get another job (I agree). I know of a lot of jobs that don't work on Sunday but I don't know of many that will actually bend over backwards to allow you time off for Church (the military is actually one of the few that does this).

Anyway, sorry to ramble but I feel it's an unfair statement to say good Christians cannot be a part of the military. I am not going to put words in your mouth but I will tell you how I take/perceive what you just said...I perceive it to say only good Christians are in the ministry. We need Christians to reach the lost souls in the military, we need those men that God will raise up to be missionaries to military overseas and in the US. We need Christians that haven't been called to continue sharing their testimony and showing that Jesus Christ in our life makes a difference and it doesn't matter all the sin around us...we'll continue to walk in the Light and pray/hope it will make a difference. The Holy Spirit is still convicting and keeping complete and total evil at bay...I feel sorry for those in that day when the Holy Spirit departs and evil reigns without restraint. But until then, I will go where the Lord leads me and as of right now I'm being led to stay and continue my walk here. It could make me a bad Christian I suppose, I'll let God decide because I don't know what else to do except pray that He'll lead me to where I need to be. Edited March 26, 2011 by DennisD

[HappyChristian]

You could probably say this about most jobs/businesses if you want to be very critical (businesses that allow homosexuals to work for them, allow or encourage sensually dressed women/men, encourage dog eat dog business practices, throw "beer" get togethers after work, etc). I think it has more to do with the Christian then the job, but I understand where you are coming from. I have prayed feverishly that God would lead me out of the military if that is His will. I have been very open and even diligently searching for some path God might provide or show me...but have yet to see it. Could I have missed it? Maybe, but I feel He would have made it very clear. Could still happen I suppose.

When this whole Libya thing started we went to about 12+ days and 7 day a week work schedules (about the same we'd work while deployed). My boss came up to me the first week and asked if I would like to go to Church on Sunday, I said yes and he gave me the day off. He's continued to give me Sunday's off for Church. I've stated in the past the military is a cesspool for sin but it also seems to have more tolerance for real Christians than any business/job I know of (except the ministry of course).

My patriotism in the last 5 years (more so in the last 1-2 years) has steadily gone in favor of God. Why would I have to put patriotism of country before God in the military service? Just curious where you are coming from. What constitutes patriotism in your eyes? Is staying at work late on Wednesday night because I'm ordered to and missing service that night putting work before God? I've talked to my Pastor about this and he seems to think that it's not, you've been to our Church website...you say the Statement of Faith looks just like yours. You actually remind me a lot of my Pastor. He is very critical of the way the military is going, he served near the end of Vietnam...got ran over by a tank and has only one arm now. He's very adamant about being patriotic to both God and country but definitely more so towards God. He doesn't believe missing Church due to being ordered to work (this goes for any job) is something that would make you a bad Christian unless you look to stay at work or something like that. He's also of the mind, if your job is going to make you always work on Sundays...quit and get another job (I agree). I know of a lot of jobs that don't work on Sunday but I don't know of many that will actually bend over backwards to allow you time off for Church (the military is actually one of the few that does this).

Anyway, sorry to ramble but I feel it's an unfair statement to say good Christians cannot be a part of the military. I am not going to put words in your mouth but I will tell you how I take/perceive what you just said...I perceive it to say only good Christians are in the ministry. We need Christians to reach the lost souls in the military, we need those men that God will raise up to be missionaries to military overseas and in the US. We need Christians that haven't been called to continue sharing their testimony and showing that Jesus Christ in our life makes a difference and it doesn't matter all the sin around us...we'll continue to walk in the Light and pray/hope it will make a difference. The Holy Spirit is still convicting and keeping complete and total evil at bay...I feel sorry for those in that day when the Holy Spirit departs and evil reigns without restraint. But until then, I will go where the Lord leads me and as of right now I'm being led to stay and continue my walk here. It could make me a bad Christian I suppose, I'll let God decide because I don't know what else to do except pray that He'll lead me to where I need to be.

:goodpost:

[John81]

You could probably say this about most jobs/businesses if you want to be very critical (businesses that allow homosexuals to work for them, allow or encourage sensually dressed women/men, encourage dog eat dog business practices, throw "beer" get togethers after work, etc). I think it has more to do with the Christian then the job, but I understand where you are coming from. I have prayed feverishly that God would lead me out of the military if that is His will. I have been very open and even diligently searching for some path God might provide or show me...but have yet to see it. Could I have missed it? Maybe, but I feel He would have made it very clear. Could still happen I suppose.

When this whole Libya thing started we went to about 12+ days and 7 day a week work schedules (about the same we'd work while deployed). My boss came up to me the first week and asked if I would like to go to Church on Sunday, I said yes and he gave me the day off. He's continued to give me Sunday's off for Church. I've stated in the past the military is a cesspool for sin but it also seems to have more tolerance for real Christians than any business/job I know of (except the ministry of course).

My patriotism in the last 5 years (more so in the last 1-2 years) has steadily gone in favor of God. Why would I have to put patriotism of country before God in the military service? Just curious where you are coming from. What constitutes patriotism in your eyes? Is staying at work late on Wednesday night because I'm ordered to and missing service that night putting work before God? I've talked to my Pastor about this and he seems to think that it's not, you've been to our Church website...you say the Statement of Faith looks just like yours. You actually remind me a lot of my Pastor. He is very critical of the way the military is going, he served near the end of Vietnam...got ran over by a tank and has only one arm now. He's very adamant about being patriotic to both God and country but definitely more so towards God. He doesn't believe missing Church due to being ordered to work (this goes for any job) is something that would make you a bad Christian unless you look to stay at work or something like that. He's also of the mind, if your job is going to make you always work on Sundays...quit and get another job (I agree). I know of a lot of jobs that don't work on Sunday but I don't know of many that will actually bend over backwards to allow you time off for Church (the military is actually one of the few that does this).

Anyway, sorry to ramble but I feel it's an unfair statement to say good Christians cannot be a part of the military. I am not going to put words in your mouth but I will tell you how I take/perceive what you just said...I perceive it to say only good Christians are in the ministry. We need Christians to reach the lost souls in the military, we need those men that God will raise up to be missionaries to military overseas and in the US. We need Christians that haven't been called to continue sharing their testimony and showing that Jesus Christ in our life makes a difference and it doesn't matter all the sin around us...we'll continue to walk in the Light and pray/hope it will make a difference. The Holy Spirit is still convicting and keeping complete and total evil at bay...I feel sorry for those in that day when the Holy Spirit departs and evil reigns without restraint. But until then, I will go where the Lord leads me and as of right now I'm being led to stay and continue my walk here. It could make me a bad Christian I suppose, I'll let God decide because I don't know what else to do except pray that He'll lead me to where I need to be.

A major problem with Christians today is that we do our own thing rather than actually seeking, waiting upon, and then following the will of God for our lives. If God specifcially calls someone to a task, whether that be as a missionary to Rwanda, to work in Wal-Mart or to join the Air Force, then they absolutely should obey God. However, most American Christians decide for themselves, or let others decide for them, and then go while perhaps asking God to bless their decision.

How often do American Christians today go into serious fasting and prayer seeking God's will for their lives...and then to actually continue in this, waiting upon the Lord to answer, whether this takes weeks, months or even longer?

It saddens me so much to see professing Christian youth looking about for the best education or career path for them to take and their parents urging them, and even folks in their churches telling them "have fun while you're young", "get that education now", "start working towards that money-making career today". No prayer seeking God's will. No asking family and the church to pray for such. Parents not counseling their children to seek God's will or asking for prayer from the church for such. Folks in the church not taking a biblical approach. All human effort and then a proclamation of "this is what I've decided is best for me", perhaps a few prayers from some to bless their decision, and off they go.

One look at Facebook pages or websites created by many professing Christian youth makes it clear that God is far from first in their lives.

[JerryNumbers]

Yes, we could, but you must admit, if your going to be honest, many professing Christians do not let the "Holly Book" be their guide in choosing the type work they chose. Lots of them do as Lot, and their children turn out like Lot's children.

[DennisD]

A major problem with Christians today is that we do our own thing rather than actually seeking, waiting upon, and then following the will of God for our lives. If God specifcially calls someone to a task, whether that be as a missionary to Rwanda, to work in Wal-Mart or to join the Air Force, then they absolutely should obey God. However, most American Christians decide for themselves, or let others decide for them, and then go while perhaps asking God to bless their decision.

How often do American Christians today go into serious fasting and prayer seeking God's will for their lives...and then to actually continue in this, waiting upon the Lord to answer, whether this takes weeks, months or even longer?

It saddens me so much to see professing Christian youth looking about for the best education or career path for them to take and their parents urging them, and even folks in their churches telling them "have fun while you're young", "get that education now", "start working towards that money-making career today". No prayer seeking God's will. No asking family and the church to pray for such. Parents not counseling their children to seek God's will or asking for prayer from the church for such. Folks in the church not taking a biblical approach. All human effort and then a proclamation of "this is what I've decided is best for me", perhaps a few prayers from some to bless their decision, and off they go.

One look at Facebook pages or websites created by many professing Christian youth makes it clear that God is far from first in their lives.

If I had to take a guess, I would say probably quite infrequently but if they are doing it the right way no one should know they are praying/fasting anyway.

I can't tell if you are telling me I'm doing it wrong or if you are just talking in generalities.

I'm still a little perplexed that some can believe a good Christian can't be part of the military. Maybe it's pride kicking in I don't know, not sure what else can be done to show others you've done the necessary things to know God's will in your life. Of course we can know when it's NOT God's will if I feel I'm being led to sin somehow (that would obviously be the flesh leading me instead of God) but I don't feel that's the case...as far as I can tell I will not be sinning by staying in the military.

[John81]

If I had to take a guess, I would say probably quite infrequently but if they are doing it the right way no one should know they are praying/fasting anyway.

I can't tell if you are telling me I'm doing it wrong or if you are just talking in generalities.

I'm still a little perplexed that some can believe a good Christian can't be part of the military. Maybe it's pride kicking in I don't know, not sure what else can be done to show others you've done the necessary things to know God's will in your life. Of course we can know when it's NOT God's will if I feel I'm being led to sin somehow (that would obviously be the flesh leading me instead of God) but I don't feel that's the case...as far as I can tell I will not be sinning by staying in the military.

I apologize for not being more clear. I was speaking in general, not in reference to you at all.

It's true most fasting should be done in private, but in some cases it's appropriate to ask for corporate fasting, such as we see in Esther, for example.

If we are seeking the Lord in prayer there is nothing wrong with mentioning this. In fact, it's good when we acknowledge we are seeking the Lord's will rather than seeking to meet our own desires. Sometimes folks will mention they have been praying about this or that, but most often when I hear folks, especially younger folks, talking about what they are going to do after high school or college, there is rarely, if any, talk of prayer or God's will at all. Instead there is a lot of talk about "I want..." and "this is what I think is best...".

As I mentioned previously, if a person is led of the Lord to join the military then that's exactly what they should do. What I was trying to point out is that most professing Christians don't actually seek the Lord's will in such matters and simply determine for themselves if they should join the military based upon their own perceptions of what is "best for them".

I know of several who joined the military based upon their perception of patriotism rather than consultation with God. They and their families took the emotionalism of patriotic fervor as a "sign" they were doing right. Then as an afterthought, they asked others to pray they would be safe. Several of these men are now having a very difficult time walking with the Lord after all they saw and had to do while in the military. Some have walked away from the church.

We each should go where the Lord leads, but we need to be sure we are seeking and following His leading and not our own desires.

[DennisD]

I apologize for not being more clear. I was speaking in general, not in reference to you at all.

It's true most fasting should be done in private, but in some cases it's appropriate to ask for corporate fasting, such as we see in Esther, for example.

If we are seeking the Lord in prayer there is nothing wrong with mentioning this. In fact, it's good when we acknowledge we are seeking the Lord's will rather than seeking to meet our own desires. Sometimes folks will mention they have been praying about this or that, but most often when I hear folks, especially younger folks, talking about what they are going to do after high school or college, there is rarely, if any, talk of prayer or God's will at all. Instead there is a lot of talk about "I want..." and "this is what I think is best...".

As I mentioned previously, if a person is led of the Lord to join the military then that's exactly what they should do. What I was trying to point out is that most professing Christians don't actually seek the Lord's will in such matters and simply determine for themselves if they should join the military based upon their own perceptions of what is "best for them".

I know of several who joined the military based upon their perception of patriotism rather than consultation with God. They and their families took the emotionalism of patriotic fervor as a "sign" they were doing right. Then as an afterthought, they asked others to pray they would be safe. Several of these men are now having a very difficult time walking with the Lord after all they saw and had to do while in the military. Some have walked away from the church.

We each should go where the Lord leads, but we need to be sure we are seeking and following His leading and not our own desires.

I understand, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

I have also seen the same thing with teenagers that aren't seeking God's will on what they should do after high school. They've already decided that they are going to college and just ask that the Church prays that God will tell them which school to pick. It seems they've missed the first step in God's will and that's what you should be doing (maybe God doesn't WANT you to go to college or the like).

Can't go wrong if you truly are following God's will, I wish more kids that are about to get out of high school would do this because in my opinion they are most vulnerable as they leave the "safety" of their house/family and get bombarded by the world. Many stop going to Church, start dressing like the world, start dating, etc.

[John81]

I understand, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

I have also seen the same thing with teenagers that aren't seeking God's will on what they should do after high school. They've already decided that they are going to college and just ask that the Church prays that God will tell them which school to pick. It seems they've missed the first step in God's will and that's what you should be doing (maybe God doesn't WANT you to go to college or the like).

Can't go wrong if you truly are following God's will, I wish more kids that are about to get out of high school would do this because in my opinion they are most vulnerable as they leave the "safety" of their house/family and get bombarded by the world. Many stop going to Church, start dressing like the world, start dating, etc.

What you say is so true. It's a shame the parents of these kids are not leading them to seek God's will. It seems most often the parents and their kids are of the same mind that the most important thing is doing what they think necessary to make sure the kid gets into a career that will provide all the money they think they need.

After our discussions here about this, I think I'm going to talk with our Associate Pastor about this issue. He leads the high school youth group and teaches the high school Sunday school. I think I'll ask him if perhaps he could raise these issues with the high schoolers, if he hasn't already, and then see if perhaps we can't set up some sort of prayer support in this area. Perhaps a special prayer request for our high schoolers in general or establishng a prayer team to specifically pray for our high schoolers, with the high schoolers being encouraged to give the prayer team specific prayer requests as they come up. I would be willing to participate in that myself.

Thank you for this discussion! I'll spend time in prayer over this for the Lord's guidance and then proceed, or not, accordingly.

[Guest]

You could probably say this about most jobs/businesses if you want to be very critical (businesses that allow homosexuals to work for them, allow or encourage sensually dressed women/men, encourage dog eat dog business practices, throw "beer" get togethers after work, etc). I think it has more to do with the Christian then the job, but I understand where you are coming from. I have prayed feverishly that God would lead me out of the military if that is His will. I have been very open and even diligently searching for some path God might provide or show me...but have yet to see it. Could I have missed it? Maybe, but I feel He would have made it very clear. Could still happen I suppose.

When this whole Libya thing started we went to about 12+ days and 7 day a week work schedules (about the same we'd work while deployed). My boss came up to me the first week and asked if I would like to go to Church on Sunday, I said yes and he gave me the day off. He's continued to give me Sunday's off for Church. I've stated in the past the military is a cesspool for sin but it also seems to have more tolerance for real Christians than any business/job I know of (except the ministry of course).

My patriotism in the last 5 years (more so in the last 1-2 years) has steadily gone in favor of God. Why would I have to put patriotism of country before God in the military service? Just curious where you are coming from. What constitutes patriotism in your eyes? Is staying at work late on Wednesday night because I'm ordered to and missing service that night putting work before God? I've talked to my Pastor about this and he seems to think that it's not, you've been to our Church website...you say the Statement of Faith looks just like yours. You actually remind me a lot of my Pastor. He is very critical of the way the military is going, he served near the end of Vietnam...got ran over by a tank and has only one arm now. He's very adamant about being patriotic to both God and country but definitely more so towards God. He doesn't believe missing Church due to being ordered to work (this goes for any job) is something that would make you a bad Christian unless you look to stay at work or something like that. He's also of the mind, if your job is going to make you always work on Sundays...quit and get another job (I agree). I know of a lot of jobs that don't work on Sunday but I don't know of many that will actually bend over backwards to allow you time off for Church (the military is actually one of the few that does this).

Anyway, sorry to ramble but I feel it's an unfair statement to say good Christians cannot be a part of the military. I am not going to put words in your mouth but I will tell you how I take/perceive what you just said...I perceive it to say only good Christians are in the ministry. We need Christians to reach the lost souls in the military, we need those men that God will raise up to be missionaries to military overseas and in the US. We need Christians that haven't been called to continue sharing their testimony and showing that Jesus Christ in our life makes a difference and it doesn't matter all the sin around us...we'll continue to walk in the Light and pray/hope it will make a difference. The Holy Spirit is still convicting and keeping complete and total evil at bay...I feel sorry for those in that day when the Holy Spirit departs and evil reigns without restraint. But until then, I will go where the Lord leads me and as of right now I'm being led to stay and continue my walk here. It could make me a bad Christian I suppose, I'll let God decide because I don't know what else to do except pray that He'll lead me to where I need to be.

Sorry I missed this Dennis. I'm sorry for you military commanders have given you the environment you're in. When I retired from the Navy the issue for men was women taking shore billets after becoming pregnant. That pales in comparison to your environment now. I have 3 sons in service and they share many of your sentiments. +1 for your comments.

[John81]

Sorry I missed this Dennis. I'm sorry for you military commanders have given you the environment you're in. When I retired from the Navy the issue for men was women taking shore billets after becoming pregnant. That pales in comparison to your environment now. I have 3 sons in service and they share many of your sentiments. +1 for your comments.

It's sad to see how liberalism has finally taken such hold in the military. With this new liberalism will come the pushing aside and pushing out of those in leadership who disagree.

Our oldest son has expressed an interest in possibly joining the Navy after high school. I would that the Navy was still as it was when my uncle was there, or even as when my cousin was there.

[JerryNumbers]

It will never be the same, none of the branches of the military services in this country. In the last 10 years it has gone through a major make over, getting very unfriendly to those that follow Jesus the Son of the living God, forbidding them from sharing their faith with others, and forbidding them form telling anyone how to be saved, forbidding them from telling anyone that those who have not Jesus as Savior will not go to heaven, but to hell. Forbidding them from proclaiming homosexuality is a sin, forbidding them from pointing out there is just one living God while other gods that are taught are not God's at all.

And now they are busy welcoming the homosexuals into their mist, giving the sin of homosexuality credibility, doing that even encourges this sin against God.

Just think, the good Baptist Chaplin has to agree that anyone he councils outside of the Baptist, he has to council them according to whatever they believe, and he is locked from telling them the trust about the one true living God and His Son, the Savior.

For instants:

he will have to council the Muslim, in the way of Muslims.
he will have to council the RCC members in the way of the RCC.
he will have to council the church of Christ in the ways of the church of Christ.
he has to council the atheist in the ways of the atheist.
when he is holdig a service with mixed beliefs, he will have to only proclaim that whihc will not offend anyone, yet pleases everyone.

And has signed on the line that he will agree to this. And from what I understand, every Christian joining the military has to agree to many of the same things.

In my days in the military there was no such agreement., I did not have to sign away no religious rights.

[DennisD]

In my days in the military there was no such agreement., I did not have to sign away no religious rights.

I know of none that I've had to sign away either.

Chaplains could be another story, but I heard they were going downhill even 30 years ago and there isn't much change since then. My Pastor was a Chaplain in the Civil Air Patrol which I guess feel under the same or similar statutes as military Chaplains (if I understand it correctly). He left because he couldn't stomach the restrictions of how you could profess your faith.