Is it possible to renounce salvation?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I understand what you are saying. However, that still does not explain that passage I quoted in Hebrews. If once cannot renounce salvation, what does this passage mean? It leaves me a bit confused if we say one cannot renounce salvation.

Also, in John 10:29, it says no man can pluck you from the Father's hand. That implies an external force applied to a person, such as Satan. I am not sure this applies to one's self saying you cannot renounce salvation. If that were included, it would have said, "No man can walk out of the Father's hands." I am not disagreeing with you, but I do not see how John 10:29 can be extended to apply to one's own decision.

As far as renouncing salvation implying that salvation is works ba. sed, I do not believe it is. No works can earn salvation. That is crystal clear. However, a man must respond to to the Father's call to accept the gift. Each person is free to chose to reject it. THe rich young ruler went away sad because he could not do what was asked of him upon receiving the call of Christ. What was required of him? Well, selling his possessions, giving to the poor and following the call of Christ. Those actions would not have saved him, but responding affirmativly to the call of Christ would have. THe grace God extends through Christ is where salvation is found, but it does take belief and a decision to follow Christ.

So, after making a decision, is it not possible for one to make the decision to throw out that gift of grace? Again, I am not arguing one way or another, just trying to reconcile the Scriptures on this. I still do not know what the Hebrews passage means if once cannot revoke his decision. However, when I read in the context of one being able to revoke his decision, then it makes perfect sense.

This is a difficult issue for me to reconcile in my mind as I read the scriptures on the issue.

Ephesians 1:13,14 is clear. Once one trusts Christ, that one is sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption of the purchased possession. How long is that person sealed? Until the day of Redemption.

It doesn't say one is sealed until one decides to reject Christ. It doesn't say one is sealed until one messes up. No, it says until the day of redemption. If that seal is broken before the day of redemption, the Ephesians 1:13,14 is a lie.

And if those two verses are a lie, then chances are there are more lies in the Word of God.

Those who are saved know that Ephesians 1:13,14 is not a lie, but a promise. And He who promised is Faithful and True.

[JerryNumbers]

I do not believe one who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit will renounce his or her faith or belief in Jesus Christ. Scripture teaches us that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, so I don't see how a believer can fall into apostasy to the point of denying Christ.

If one made a profession at some stage in life and years later walked away from the Christian faith and now lives the life of an atheist, I do not believe that profession resulted in possession. Their hearts were not truly changed though they had made a profession.

I know of a father & mother, good church workers in a Baptist Church at the time, their son age 21 was killed in a very bad car wreck. The wife & I came along right after the wreck took place. After this both of them denounced their faith in Christ, just about made a shrine out of their sons grave, asked those over the cemetery, which is out in a rural area, if they could have a night light installed, they OK'ed, & did this that he would never be in the dark.

I was told by a pastor that at that time, it was either 69 or 70, that they knew their son was not saved, & they did not want to be in heaven if he was going to be in hell, that they wanted to spend eternity with their son.

I understand in their latter years they got back in church, it may have been due to their grand daughter by their other son that started attending church services right after her son was born.

I would never say that a saved person would never denounce their faith. For we do have emotions, & when our heart gets badly broken we may do some strange things

[2Tim215]

I find it amazing how many of you are quick to state that a believer living in sin was never saved in the first place. The bible is very clear on salvation - believe on the finished work of Christ at the cross and you will be saved through His faith not yours. What you do with your life after that is your responsibility, NOT GOD'S. This "living in sin" however does not cause one to lose their salvation. Like the Pharisees you make your interpretation more important than God's simple truth. It's too simple, to easy for you to accept that God grace is greater than your sin. You will easily believe that His grace is enough for your pre-salvation sin, but not for any continual sin after salvation - this stinks of works not grace - of Calvinism.
You make God small and petty and say things like "he must not have made a proper profession"; "he didn't believe enough"; "he was never TRULY saved" and " he was not filled with the spirit". You believe! Your salvation is not dependent on YOU but on GOD, not your sins past, present, continual or future, BUT ON GOD"S GRACE!!!!!!!~!!!!!!!! So stop using your own OPINION to explain a man/woman's struggle with sin - pray for them instead of condemning them with your arrogant statements as if you have the power of God to know a man's heart.
If a person believes they are saved - they are not chosen to believe beforehand and can not take salvation doctrine from the gospels and always remember Acts

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Edited May 1, 2012 by 2Tim215

[Standing Firm In Christ]

One cannot lose one's Salvation.

But the Word of God states

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

If one is able to make a profession of faith and then fall into sin without feeling the chastening hand of the Lord, that person was not saved. Scripture calls that one a bastard and not a son.

Too many want to come to Christ on their own terms. "Lord, I'll believe in you for Salvation, but this is my life and I will live it any way I well please" is the attitude.

Well, with that type of attitude, God isn't going to hear them. They aren't submitting to Him. Scripture states if we want eternal life, we must deny self, take up our cross and follow Him. Living a sinful life is not denying self, it is satisfying self. And if anyone thinks they can live a life of sin and be saved at the same time, they are only deceiving themselves.

And if they think they are saved while living in sin and they are not feeling the chastening hand of the Lord, they are as lost as the atheist down the street.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[HappyChristian]

I find it amazing how many of you are quick to state that a believer living in sin was never saved in the first place. The bible is very clear on salvation - believe on the finished work of Christ at the cross and you will be saved through His faith not yours. What you do with your life after that is your responsibility, NOT GOD'S. This "living in sin" however does not cause one to lose their salvation. Like the Pharisees you make your interpretation more important than God's simple truth. It's too simple, to easy for you to accept that God grace is greater than your sin. You will easily believe that His grace is enough for your pre-salvation sin, but not for any continual sin after salvation - this stinks of works not grace - of Calvinism.
You make God small and petty and say things like "he must not have made a proper profession"; "he didn't believe enough"; "he was never TRULY saved" and " he was not filled with the spirit". You believe! Your salvation is not dependent on YOU but on GOD, not your sins past, present, continual or future, BUT ON GOD"S GRACE!!!!!!!~!!!!!!!! So stop using your own OPINION to explain a man/woman's struggle with sin - pray for them instead of condemning them with your arrogant statements as if you have the power of God to know a man's heart.
If a person believes they are saved - they are not chosen to believe beforehand and can not take salvation doctrine from the gospels and always remember Acts

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

How about calming down, 2Tim? Re-read the posts carefully and you'll see that there really isn't that much talk about someone who is in sin not really being saved. The plain fact of the matter is that there are people who are NOT saved, even though they profess to be, for whatever reason they might have. I re-read this thread, after you posted, just to see what was being said. And I have to say that none of the posters deserve being called arrogant - even those that state that there is a possibility of someone who rejects Christ was not truly saved. Because that is a very real possibility.

Remember that the Bible says that the devils believe and TREMBLE. Too often, we make salvation a light thing when presenting it (it is simple, but not light!), and a prayer is prayed, but the heart is not involved. And that person goes on to try and live what is perceived as the Christian life without the Holy Spirit power. All too often, when that happens, discouragement sets in and the person turns away - were they ever truly saved? No. They had the trappings, but not the power. That is a truth that cannot be denied by anyone that has been a Christian for very long.

That is not to say that a person who is truly saved can lose their salvation. Scripture is clear that they cannot. They can backslide, though, and will be miserable when they do...and it will seem to others that mayhap they never were saved. They may even think so, and "get saved" again later.

No-one condemned anyone in this thread...please don't accuse where there isn't accusatory reasons. Thanks.

[2Tim215]

How about calming down, 2Tim? Re-read the posts carefully and you'll see that there really isn't that much talk about someone who is in sin not really being saved. The plain fact of the matter is that there are people who are NOT saved, even though they profess to be, for whatever reason they might have. I re-read this thread, after you posted, just to see what was being said. And I have to say that none of the posters deserve being called arrogant - even those that state that there is a possibility of someone who rejects Christ was not truly saved. Because that is a very real possibility.

Remember that the Bible says that the devils believe and TREMBLE. Too often, we make salvation a light thing when presenting it (it is simple, but not light!), and a prayer is prayed, but the heart is not involved. And that person goes on to try and live what is perceived as the Christian life without the Holy Spirit power. All too often, when that happens, discouragement sets in and the person turns away - were they ever truly saved? No. They had the trappings, but not the power. That is a truth that cannot be denied by anyone that has been a Christian for very long.

That is not to say that a person who is truly saved can lose their salvation. Scripture is clear that they cannot. They can backslide, though, and will be miserable when they do...and it will seem to others that mayhap they never were saved. They may even think so, and "get saved" again later.

No-one condemned anyone in this thread...please don't accuse where there isn't accusatory reasons. Thanks.

I am not condemning anyone. I did not make any statements at specific persons but rather at the general underling doctrine believed by some. And I said "arrogant statements" - This does not imply arrogance onto the testator but onto the STATEMENT. - so if you want quotes here they are.

I know someone who was even baptized, but just because they say they are and go through the acts of being a Christian that does not mean they are actually saved. That is why Jesus said many will come to me, saying haven't I done this and this and He will respond, "Depart, I know you not!" He knows who are His from the second they begin to pray. - Jesus was not speaking to NT believers here

For someone to go from being saved to an atheist does not say much for their salvation to begin with, but only God knows if he was sincere in accepting him before he walked away from Him. If he was sincere when he got saved he will be in heaven.

Deep down they are angry, frustrated, and bitter, they blame God for their lives being a mess or whatever it is, but I tell you what when it all comes down to it, they will be thanking God for not casting them out like they cast Him out.

I do not believe one who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit will renounce his or her faith or belief in Jesus Christ. Scripture teaches us that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, so I don't see how a believer can fall into apostasy to the point of denying Christ.

If one made a profession at some stage in life and years later walked away from the Christian faith and now lives the life of an atheist, I do not believe that profession resulted in possession. Their hearts were not truly changed though they had made a profession.

Once one is biblically saved the Holy Ghost seals them and indwells them and they are sons/daughters of God forever after.

Scripture has examples of those who appeared to be saved, acted saved and may have even thought they were saved, but their turning away was due to the fact they were never saved to begin with. None lost their salvation because they had never been saved to begin with.

Show me those scriptures that state that they made a "profession" of faith.

If you can lose your salvation...that means you are keeping it by works. (Because if your works are "bad", i.e. rejecting Christ, then your WORKS kept or lost your salvation).

So to believe you can renounce salvation is to believe in works salvation. So the question is, do you believe in grace or works salvation? God says plainly in Ephesians, its NOT of works...if it was works, we could boast. God saved us by grace through faith, NOT of ourselves. If we can choose to keep or reject our salvation, then it is not God, but us doing it.

It is likely that anyone who can fully reject Christ was never saved to begin with. Those saved have the Holy Spirit inside to bear witness with their spirit and those who would then be an atheist surely do not have the Holy Spirit inside. First John has a lot to say about those who would claim to be saved but then not have the spirit of Christ for real.

Many a saved believer has lost a loved one, been hurt, got cancer, etc etc and in anger and hurt "FULLY" rejected Christ in their hearts - this does not mean we have the right to judge them unsaved because we see the fruits from only a glimpse of there lives and not the whole story.

I feel very strongly about this trend amongst many IFB's to judge a person unsaved like they would a book by it's cover without even taking the time to read the story. We can judge sin in a believers life, there fruit or lack thereof, there doctrine but where in the Word does it say we can blithely take God's place as Savior and condemn people unsaved by our words?

[HappyChristian]

2Tim, I didn't need you to re-post anything...as I said, I re-read the thread. And there is nothing wrong with the statements that you highlighted. They didn't come from judgmental thoughts by the posters, nor assumptions based on glimpses of someone's life. What they stated was factual. There are people who claim the name of Christ but who are not truly saved.

As to the posts that you did quote: If you have a question about what they might have meant, ask them individually (specifically John with your question - or, rather, demand - about scripture [fwiw, it's always a good idea to require scriptural proof, imo - just, mayhap a bit nicer...]) Try reading the entire post...

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that someone who is truly saved will FULLY reject Christ. They might be hurt, angry, or bitter, but there will always be something (the Holy Spirit) inside them nudging them, even if it's minutely. I know a number of people like this. And I know of people who claimed the name of Christ, only to realize later that they were not saved. It does happen - that isn't book cover judging, it's fact.

And please note that I didn't say you condemned anyone...I said calm down. And I stand by that. Thank you.

[trell]

If salvation was in your head, you could change your mind and reject, renounce the sprit. Sort of like Saul in the OT.
But if salvation is in your heart, a leopard cannot change its' spots, nor an Ethiopian his skin.

It is incorruptible seed. Not just mental thoughts.

[2Tim215]

2Tim, I didn't need you to re-post anything...as I said, I re-read the thread. And there is nothing wrong with the statements that you highlighted. They didn't come from judgmental thoughts by the posters, nor assumptions based on glimpses of someone's life. What they stated was factual. There are people who claim the name of Christ but who are not truly saved.

As to the posts that you did quote: If you have a question about what they might have meant, ask them individually (specifically John with your question - or, rather, demand - about scripture [fwiw, it's always a good idea to require scriptural proof, imo - just, mayhap a bit nicer...]) Try reading the entire post...

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that someone who is truly saved will FULLY reject Christ. They might be hurt, angry, or bitter, but there will always be something (the Holy Spirit) inside them nudging them, even if it's minutely. I know a number of people like this. And I know of people who claimed the name of Christ, only to realize later that they were not saved. It does happen - that isn't book cover judging, it's fact.

And please note that I didn't say you condemned anyone...I said calm down. And I stand by that. Thank you.

There is no reason for me to "calm down" when I am already calm. This is not the first time that I have seen this trend here nor I am sure the last. I stand by what I said and will every time I see this and I disagree with your statement - we will, can and are able to FULLY reject Christ even though saved and sealed with His Blood - the difference is HE will never reject us. Maybe we should stop looking to see if everyone else's profession of faith is REAL and look to our own.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

So in line with the thread - Yes we can renounce our salvation, but this in no way diminishes, takes away or nullifies our salvation as it from God and not from us! It's like an unbeliever trying to sell his soul to the devil - ridiculous!!!! The devil already owns their souls (Mat 12:30).
We are bought and paid for with a price -

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

These very verses imply that they did not glorify God and had to be chastised into doing so - all sin is the same in God's eyes so why would "renouncing" be any different? We are bought for and are not our own and even if we did renounce God we can not give up what is not ours to give. So again, yes we can in the emptiness and futility of our own strength but our "renunciation" means nothing against the Grace of Christ. Edited May 1, 2012 by 2Tim215

[HappyChristian]

Now, see, that wasn't so hard, was it? Instead of firing at people that their statements are arrogant, add to the conversation. Thank you.

[2Tim215]

Now, see, that wasn't so hard, was it? Instead of firing at people that their statements are arrogant, add to the conversation. Thank you.

Thought I was

[HappyChristian]

Thought I was

You did, most definitely, with your last post. It was well presented - and supported some with scripture. I wasn't at all being sarcastic. I was seriously thanking you. My point was that your first post was incendiary. The last one wasn't, but it said quite a bit of good stuff.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Matthew 7 reveals that there will be many that stand before Christ pleading with Him because of the many things they did for Him in life. And He will profess to them, "I never knew you."

He doesn't say, "I knew you, but you decided not to follow me any more." He emphatically tells them, "I 'NEVER' knew you."

Yes, it is sad that there are going to be many who made a profession of faith in life, went to Church, put money in the offering plates, gave to missions, fed visiting missionaries and evangelists, and a whole slew of other 'wonderful works' who never truly were saved in the first place.

They were able to fool the pastors, the missionaries, the evangelists, the teachers, their parents, their children... and even managed to fool themselves with thoughts of "I'm as good as the next guy," or "I'm better than him."

Yet they never once fooled Jesus Christ. Jesus knows the heart of man, how it is deceitful above all others and desperately wicked. Unless that heart experiences a change that is done by the work of the Holy Spirit, that person's faith and wonderful works are all in vain.

[JerryNumbers]

If salvation was in your head, you could change your mind and reject, renounce the sprit. Sort of like Saul in the OT.
But if salvation is in your heart, a leopard cannot change its' spots, nor an Ethiopian his skin.

It is incorruptible seed. Not just mental thoughts.

Yet, the vilest sinner can be saved & changed by Christ.

[trell]

Jerry,
I was quoting Jeremiah in relation to seed. The seed determines what it is. Seed from God makes a person a child of God.