An e-mail I received from a chaplain.

[DennisD]

This should be reported immediately to the commanding officer. This is outrageous! This is against the law and military regulations. Plus, if other off-base organizations are allowed to post flyers on base, then churches must be allowed to as well. Military personnel give up some of their Constitutional rights when they enlist, but they don't give up all of them.

The only time I was prohibited from going off base to church was boot camp or while at sea. When I attended OCS, we were allowed to attend churches off base; in fact, church buses would park outside the main gate waiting for us Sailors. While stationed in South Korea, I attended the SBC church outside the base when I was off-duty (I couldn't find any IFB churches).

I'm sure temporary bans could be imposed in certain circumstances, such as deployments, war zones, or military exercises, but there cannot be a blanket policy against going off-base to church if you're stationed in the United States.

Tell me what base it is, and I'll file the formal complaint for you. I'm sure there are other OB pastors here with military experience who will do the same thing.

I don't mean they physically restrain people from going off of base. But, what they do (and we have complained, the commander here believes the Chaplain has more power than he really has) is disallow certain things that would bring people off base for Church. They disallow any door to door witnessing, flyers in common areas (we put flyers in the mailboxes because they are owned by the German government and not the military) and things like that. The Chaplains here are as ecumenical as they come. They took away all the Churches Non-Profit Organization status away so they can't use banking facilities anymore or mailbox facilities. My Pastor has been fighting them for awhile now...with that said, we are doing ok. I worry more about younger troops who don't understand or know their rights and can by bullied. And to be honest, some of these things might have been a blessing in disguise (losing the Non-Profit Organization status got us involved with a much better bank).

The base is USAG Stuttgart, here is the website if you are so inclined:

http://www.stuttgart.army.mil/sites/local/default.asp

[DennisD]

I feel like I keep saying this wrong. They (Chaplains) don't prevent in the strictest form of the word. The prevent in subtle ways, just by making it hard for us to reach out to many of the service members. Maybe 6 months ago I talked to my Pastor about getting a better website and one the military doesn't block at work (because of security concerns). I worked with him and the computer technicians to make sure our new site would not be blocked (praise God everything worked out!). We have ads in the base newspaper, we outreach as best we can but the Chaplains try to prevent service members from going off base by doing small, usually non-intrusive things (at least to most). Like the things I had mentioned before.

[trc123]

I don't mean they physically restrain people from going off of base. But, what they do (and we have complained, the commander here believes the Chaplain has more power than he really has) is disallow certain things that would bring people off base for Church. They disallow any door to door witnessing, flyers in common areas (we put flyers in the mailboxes because they are owned by the German government and not the military) and things like that. The Chaplains here are as ecumenical as they come. They took away all the Churches Non-Profit Organization status away so they can't use banking facilities anymore or mailbox facilities. My Pastor has been fighting them for awhile now...with that said, we are doing ok. I worry more about younger troops who don't understand or know their rights and can by bullied. And to be honest, some of these things might have been a blessing in disguise (losing the Non-Profit Organization status got us involved with a much better bank).

The base is USAG Stuttgart, here is the website if you are so inclined:

http://www.stuttgart.army.mil/sites/local/default.asp

There is a huge difference in not allowing troops to go off base to your church and disallowing your church to go door-to-door and do mass leaflet drops to common areas and mailboxes. HUGE! They most likely have that as an official policy for all religious institutions.

Does the base prohibit individual troops, families and civilian workers from personally sharing Christ during their daily activities?

Without meaning to be purposely offensive to you, the history and situation you describe makes it sound like your church may be a bit combative and very aggressive; perhaps even having complaints lodged against it for the mass leaflet drops.

[DennisD]

There is a huge difference in not allowing troops to go off base to your church and disallowing your church to go door-to-door and do mass leaflet drops to common areas and mailboxes. HUGE! They most likely have that as an official policy for all religious institutions.

Does the base prohibit individual troops, families and civilian workers from personally sharing Christ during their daily activities?

Without meaning to be purposely offensive to you, the history and situation you describe makes it sound like your church may be a bit combative and very aggressive; perhaps even having complaints lodged against it for the mass leaflet drops.

You would be wrong in a couple ways. Before I respond though, I would like to add I am not offended by what you said but I'm a little perplexed you would come to such a thought (I think you've taken a very large leap with that statement) with what I've wrote. I've been in the military for quite awhile and know the difference between actual policy and outright denial of certain liberties.

1) Our Church is not aggressive, far from it. It used to be allowed to go on base knocking on doors and handing out tracts until 9/11. At that time, it was said that for security purposes thinngs would be different. Those "things" weren't exactly spelled out. So, the Church continued the pass out tracts but there were complaints issues (as a Bible believing Christian yourself you can understand that these complaints were from people who want nothing to do with Christ or the like). These complaints led to arrests/escorting of Church members off of base due to "security reasons".

2) Leaflets in mailboxes are ok, just not in common areas (although, I've never actually seen the rule agains this...just been told word of mouth). Other churches from off base also put leaflets in the mailboxes. In the common areas, hotels, barracks, housing leaflets are allowed for off-base clubs, off-base markets, off-base stores, etc but no Churches are allowed. Only the Chapel is allowed to put their information up in these areas.

So, I ask you, does this seem like some major battle against our Church? Or does this seem more like a battle of the Chapel against all other Churches off base? This is not just my church that has been run off, they've done it with all of them. My whole point being, they have made it very difficult for some people to worship God off base in a church they would feel better at. Edited December 14, 2010 by DennisD

[chev1958]

I understand what you're saying. While going off-base to church may not be "official" policy, military leaders can put the squeeze on certain activities and essentially dare someone to report them. I've been caught in the middle of such before (not your situation, but other types).

Satan tries to get in anywhere he can.

[trc123]

You would be wrong in a couple ways. Before I respond though, I would like to add I am not offended by what you said but I'm a little perplexed you would come to such a thought (I think you've taken a very large leap with that statement) with what I've wrote. I've been in the military for quite awhile and know the difference between actual policy and outright denial of certain liberties.

1) Our Church is not aggressive, far from it. It used to be allowed to go on base knocking on doors and handing out tracts until 9/11. At that time, it was said that for security purposes thinngs would be different. Those "things" weren't exactly spelled out. So, the Church continued the pass out tracts but there were complaints issues (as a Bible believing Christian yourself you can understand that these complaints were from people who want nothing to do with Christ or the like). These complaints led to arrests/escorting of Church members off of base due to "security reasons".

2) Leaflets in mailboxes are ok, just not in common areas (although, I've never actually seen the rule agains this...just been told word of mouth). Other churches from off base also put leaflets in the mailboxes. In the common areas, hotels, barracks, housing leaflets are allowed for off-base clubs, off-base markets, off-base stores, etc but no Churches are allowed. Only the Chapel is allowed to put their information up in these areas.

So, I ask you, does this seem like some major battle against our Church? Or does this seem more like a battle of the Chapel against all other Churches off base? This is not just my church that has been run off, they've done it with all of them. My whole point being, they have made it very difficult for some people to worship God off base in a church they would feel better at.

Hmmm....sounds like they are doing their thing across the board and not just your church; which is actually harder to combat as it is harder to show "discrimination" against one church versus another. Sounds like I misread your comments and things are non-confrontational. My apologies.

[JerryNumbers]

You can put tracts in mail boxes?

I thought, at least here is the states, that its against the law to place anything in someone's mail box.

Maybe I was told wrong.

[PreacherE]

You can put tracts in mail boxes?

I thought, at least here is the states, that its against the law to place anything in someone's mail box.

Maybe I was told wrong.

It is considered a federal offense here in the States. He's not in the States though so it may not be against the law there.

[Invicta]

What is the point of mail boxes if you can't put anything in them?

[John81]

I understand what you're saying. While going off-base to church may not be "official" policy, military leaders can put the squeeze on certain activities and essentially dare someone to report them. I've been caught in the middle of such before (not your situation, but other types).

Satan tries to get in anywhere he can.

Seen that too. There was on sergeant in particular who liked to announce those under his charge would "volunteer" for something with the unstated intent clear that they would not be doing or going to whatever else might be possible.

[JerryNumbers]

What is the point of mail boxes if you can't put anything in them?

The mail box falls under Federal authority, and its unlawful to place anything in it besides mail that has been sent through the U S Postal Service delivered by the U S mail carrier.

I would not want a mail box if anyone and everyone was allowed to put what ever they want into it. The only thing I want in my mail box is MY mail.

I do not want JW's putting their stuff, JUNK, into it for I don't want none of their false teaching pamphlets, nor any of the other false teachings from other groups..As far as that goes I don't want them putting their junk into anyones mail box.

I would think the same would be true on any U S Military Base.

[Bro Jim]

The law says only authorized USPS mail in the box, you can put anything on the out side of it. We had a precious 80 yr. lady in the church concerned for her neighbors. She went down the block putting a church tract in each mail box. Long story short in talking with the Postal service that what they told us. Inside against the law, outside ok.

[DennisD]

You can put tracts in mail boxes?

I thought, at least here is the states, that its against the law to place anything in someone's mail box.

Maybe I was told wrong.

I believe you would be correct. I think I misstated above by saying the mailboxes are owned by the German government, that is not correct...they are owned by the specific person living at that residence. So, if they put a note on their mailbox that says no "junk mail" (it's not exactly what it says but you get the idea) then we are not allowed to put tracts into those. If they do not have that sign, we are legally allowed to put flyers into the box.

[DennisD]

The mail box falls under Federal authority, and its unlawful to place anything in it besides mail that has been sent through the U S Postal Service delivered by the U S mail carrier.

I would not want a mail box if anyone and everyone was allowed to put what ever they want into it. The only thing I want in my mail box is MY mail.

I do not want JW's putting their stuff, JUNK, into it for I don't want none of their false teaching pamphlets, nor any of the other false teachings from other groups..As far as that goes I don't want them putting their junk into anyones mail box.

I would think the same would be true on any U S Military Base.

You would think but we have US mailboxes at the Army Post Office (which is like a PO box) in a consolidated facility. The mailboxes that are at the housing and barracks are for German mail, they do not fall under US regulations since no US mail goes there. Being on a US military base in Europe still means you are under the host nations laws, that can be fortunate or unfortunate at times.

Just a side note, the German mail system is a private company and not run by the government so it is not a federal offense here to put junk mail in mailboxes...but, a person can bring you to court or have you fined if you do it and there was a clear sign saying not to.

We do not put tracts or flyers into mailboxes with this sign, as it is against the law. Edited December 15, 2010 by DennisD

[irishman]

the mailbox issue aside, I am appalled at the responses I have read, (and I did not read them all) about witnessing in hospitals, jails, etc. Myself having had a jail ministry, I do not understand letting mans policy determine another eternal destiny. I quit the jail ministry for very much the same type of thing--man's policy. One would criticize my move and say that I am no longer reaching the inmates, but I sincerely believe that I did right. Act 5:29 "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to OBey God rather than men." does this apply too us too? I have been kicked out of malls, bus stations, and similar places because I was "caught" passing out tracts. I did not force anyone to read one, just provided the opportunity. If someone can own a place, and make their own rules, why can't I have a slave in my own home? (Now, I do not want a slave, but make a point.) The Constitution gives me the right to promote "religion", and none can wretch that right from me for now. If we compromise with the "chaplains" that are securing a jOB only, then we become a partaker of another mans sins.

In the military, a man has little choice, I understand, but why not move on after your tenor is up? There is that option. If one has been the subject of "forced compromise" then he must find a way out of it, or live with it, there is no other way. I have given out thousands of tracts at the Shrine Circus, which comes every year here, and been asked to leave by nOBle Shriners many times. i left when asked, but I returned again another time (by the way, by the time they caught me, I had given out 800 tracts already). If we follow the worlds policy in doing the Lord's work, we will eventually be cut off on every side, and the prOBlem would have swelled much bigger than it would have been had we cut it off before it grew. deal with it early, or it will spread. First, the malls (they say they are private property), then the hospitals (which apparently has already begun), and the jails, etc. where will it end? Eventually we will all be figureheads for Christ, and true workers!

By the way, you can put tracts on the flag of the mailbox (in Michigan) as long as it is outside the box. "Baggies" work fine for this, and in rural areas (to keep them dry), one can cover quite a distance driving from mailbox to mailbox, and having a partner hang them on the outside of the box.