95 Theses Against Dispensationalism

[anime4christ]

I'm not sure if Spurgeon really had his mind made up on his position on the millennium. At times he seemed to defend the postmillennial view as well. Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield were postmillennial and great soul-winners as well. Their postmillennial view though differed from the Roman Catholic view in that they believed the kingdom must spread in the hearts of people rather than in the white house.

[Brother Rick]

They most certainly were great soul winners and great men of God! If the post-mill position is correct (which I don't believe for a second), God most certainly doesn't want his spiritual kingdom spread by violence and politics.

[Covenanter]

I'm not sure if Spurgeon really had his mind made up on his position on the millennium. At times he seemed to defend the postmillennial view as well. Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield were postmillennial and great soul-winners as well. Their postmillennial view though differed from the Roman Catholic view in that they believed the kingdom must spread in the hearts of people rather than in the white house.

I have never heard of Rome being post-mil. The mil is absent from the creeds.

A post-mil understanding I believe resulted from the Reformation, when the power of Rome was broken, ending 1260 years of Papal oppression - & allowed the Gospel to go out in power. Surely the millennium was beginning then, as the Gospel spread round the world....

Then the Methodist revival spread the Gospel ...

Interpreting prophetic Scripture by present events is not a sound way to go. Scripture is to be understood by Scripture. Our interpretations must not have a negative effect on our service & evangelism. The Gospel is our imperative.

I suggest that the Darby/Scofield dispensationalism was accepted by evangelicals as a result of the rise in Bible criticism & modernism in the colleges. Disp'ism was a declaration that the Scriptures were trustworthy, & the humble believers necessarily rejected those college trained ministers because they rejected the authority of the Bible. Spurgeon set up his own college. But he was rejected by the Baptism Union before his death.

[Crushmaster]

I'm glad you're feeling better, brother.

I never claimed to present the "be-all-end-all" of the three viewpoints, of course there is variation. I also never claimed that all postmillennialists were Roman Catholic.

As far as bias goes, yes, I did mention that the RCC holds the view of post-mill, because it is very significant that it is that viewpoint combined with a carnal lust for power that led to their actions historically. If someone wants to be post-mill they should at least know they keep company with the most murderous organization that ever existed, doncha think?

If I reeeeeeeeeally wanted to demonstrate bias, I would have pointed out that the greatest soul winners of the last two hundred years (Spurgeon, Moody, Torrey, Chapman, Billy Sunday, and even Billy Graham [yes, I know he apostatized]) were all premillennial. I'd rather keep company with soul-winners than murderers.

Of course, I would only say THAT if I was trying to sound biased. :)

Logical fallacy. But, yes, I am Pre-Mill. And I hate Dispensationalism.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

[Brother Rick]

I hate Dispensationalism.

Those are strong words.

Why do you hate Dispensationalism and what about it do you hate?

[Invicta]

Those are strong words.

Why do you hate Dispensationalism and what about it do you hate?

It is a false teaching.

Spurgeorn certainly was not pre tribulationist.
pre tribulationism is a part of futureism which was inroduced by the RCC to counter the Christian view that the Pope was the Antichrist. This teaching was held from at least 1200AD, by the Waldenes and others, when the papacy rose to its full power and ferocity.

The Pope is the Antichrist, he was, is and always will be.

[Invicta]

The length of the time period is irrelevant to the point, the point is Jesus claimed that whatever it was that He was describing and labeled as "great tribulation" was so terrible it's never happened before and will never happen again.

A bit of a mis quote.

24. For then shall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This did not refer to intensity, no the worse of that kind was the flood when only eight survived.

No, it was in type. There never was such a tribulation as that in AD66-90 because it was all self inflicted. The Jews had rebelled against the lawful government, the Romans, who had come to restore the rule of law. The Romans respected the jewish laws and had passed many decrees favourable to the Jews, but the jews rebelled, firstly by refusing to offer sacrifice on behalf of Ceasar. By the time Titus became general of the Romans, there was a civil war inside the city with three factions all fighting each other, These groups killed far more of their countrymen that the Romans. Titus begged the Jews to save their city and offered them clemency if they returned to lawful rule. Titus begged them to save their city and the house of their God, but the Jews ignored him.

You may remember that when John started his baptist ministry, that Annus and Caiaphas were high priests. They were high priests at the time of Jesus' trial, and also, with John and Alexander and the rest of their family, at the trial of the apostles and would have put them to death but for fear of the people. Acts 4. They were undoubtably amongst those who jesus was addressing in Matt 23, when he pronounce woe on them and said that it would all come upon that generation. Matt. 23 36. It did. Every one of theose was killed by their own people. We read that those that had recently worn the holy robes of the high priest, were cast naked into the street and their bodies trampled upon. When the sacrifice failed, for want of a priest to offer it, Titus again begged the jews to continue the daily sacrifice, but thye couldn't. There was no priest left to offer it. The sacrifice had continued to that point, which was 45 days before the destruction of the temple.

No. There never was a tribulation, such as that.


The tribulation in revelation is on the church.

I have a friend who said he cannot believe the church will go through tribulation. What world does he live in? What bible does he read?

The church went through intense tribulation under the Roman emperors. It went through even more intense tribulation under the popes. And with the inquisition the church was wiped out in Spain, Bavaria, and othe countries, and France before the Edict of Nantes, after the revocation of the same.

Much of the church today suffer the same, such as in India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, China, N Korea, etc.

John 16:33. In the world, ye shall have tribulation.

[Wilchbla]

Some say this verse covers a 7 year tribulation; some say it covers a 3 1/2 year tribulation, some say this is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews and all they would go (have went) through, some say it covers more than one time or event...etc.

But yeah, I get what you are trying to say here Rick.

Technically the "great tribulation" is only 3 1/2 years. The whole time period of "Jacob's trouble" is seven years as mentioned in Daniel 9:24-27. The first 3 1/2 years could be the "beginning of sorrows" or perhaps it has already taken place in the Lord's 3 1/2 year ministry on earth. If it's the later then there could be an indeterminate amount of time between the rapture and when the Great Tribulation actually occurs. In any case, the sole purpose of the Great Tribulation is God dealing with the nation of Israel again. It has nothing to do with Christians being tried.

[Covenanter]

In any event, I need to read up more on the idea that much of Revelation occured in or around AD 70 as amills teach. I've read some on the topic, but most was written by those who were pre-mils and therefore their approach was hardly without bias.

Most amils in the UK take a historicist interpretation - Revelation is fulfilled generally down the ages, with the Papacy as the antichrist/man of sin, allied with civil powers aka the beast. That is a view I held until a few years ago. It is a very practical interpretation, as it always relates to present experience of Christian warfare against Satan. Invicta holds that view - though he is premil.

I have been studying & discussing prophecy for 50 years, since university days, when we all saw the new state of Israel as the fulfilment of prophecy & the beginning of end times. My Pastors then taught the historical line.

Now, after continued study, I take the amil preterist line & see AD 70 as the occasion for the fulfilment of the Olivet, 2 Thes. 2 & Revelation prophecies. Hebrews gives warnings to Israel as the end of the 40 year generation approached.

[Covenanter]

Continued ....

I am frequently accused of "spiritualising" Scripture, as if that were a bad thing, rather than seeking to understand the spiritual significance of Scripture in its time & context.

Why should we consider Revelation to be written BEFORE Ad 70? Chapter 11 refers to the temple of God, and the altar, and the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. That gives a very strong clue to the dating.

Who were my two witnesses? The description & function shows them to be in type Moses & Elijah - the Law & the Prophets. Remember the words of Jesus: Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

But let us begin at the beginning of Revelation: Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

I submit that the burden is on the premils to prove that Revelation is NOT for its immediate readers.

Then 2 Thes. 2 again refers to the temple of God. It was written in about AD 50, when the Jerusalem temple was standing, 20 years after Jesus prophesied its destruction, & still had 20 years before the temple & this generation finally suffered its prophesied destruction. The readers (who were concerned for the Christians in Israel) would have known what Paul was alluding to.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

Who & what? James & the believers were witnessing & suffering in Jerusalem, & they would be delivered before the destruction - actually about 3 1/2 years - 42 months before. All 144,000 of them - symbolic of the firstfruits of all Israel! Only then would the destruction fall.

Luk 21:20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Once we establish the AD 70 interpretation, we need to see how the related Scriptures & the many OT prophecies should be interpreted as the NT writers guide. There are, of course, many questions remaining, whichever line we take.

When you read the prophetic Scriptures, try to consider the 3 main paradigms, & above all seek guidance for present living, witness & spiritual warfare, not just irrelevant information about a future tribulation where Christians are raptured spectators watching a Tim & Jerry movie.

I'll wait now for replies...

Edited December 3, 2010 by Covenanter

[John81]

Interpreting prophetic Scripture by present events is not a sound way to go. Scripture is to be understood by Scripture. Our interpretations must not have a negative effect on our service & evangelism. The Gospel is our imperative.

I agree. Even before I was saved, and especially after I was saved, I encountered so much stuff (and still do today) where everything currently going on was being tied into some aspect of Bible prophecy. Over the course of time all these change and some contradict but they continue. Some really go overboard and many people are led astray, shaken, and allow their lives to go in a bad direction because of these things.

[Brother Rick]

A bit of a mis quote.

24. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This did not refer to intensity, no the worse of that kind was the flood when only eight survived.

No, it was in type. There never was such a tribulation as that in AD66-90 because it was all self inflicted. The Jews had rebelled against the lawful government, the Romans, who had come to restore the rule of law. The Romans respected the jewish laws and had passed many decrees favourable to the Jews, but the jews rebelled, firstly by refusing to offer sacrifice on behalf of Ceasar. By the time Titus became general of the Romans, there was a civil war inside the city with three factions all fighting each other, These groups killed far more of their countrymen that the Romans. Titus begged the Jews to save their city and offered them clemency if they returned to lawful rule. Titus begged them to save their city and the house of their God, but the Jews ignored him.

Really? You found that in the context? If the tribulation that Jesus was referring in Matthew 24 was 70 A.D., brother, then why didn't these events follow it?:

Matthew 24:29-31, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Same event, different chapter:

Luke 21:25-28, "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

[Covenanter]

Really? You found that in the context? If the tribulation that Jesus was referring in Matthew 24 was 70 A.D., brother, then why didn't these events follow it?:

Matthew 24:29-31, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Same event, different chapter:

Luke 21:25-28, "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Jesus has specifically prophesied against the temple, & is answering specific questions - questions that the disciples may not have understood themselves. We cannot read an understanding of the answer into the question.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Luk 21:6 [As for] these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 ¶ And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign [will there be] when these things shall come to pass?

We have no option, if we are to take the plain words of our Lord Jesus, to see these events as referring to the AD 70 destruction.

The Scriptures you raise are obvious difficulties for the preterist, as the whole passage is for the futurist. We must therefore seek to understand Scripture by Scripture.

OT judgment Scriptures will guide us - almost all Jesus' teaching alluded to OT prophecy.

e.g. When Babylon was overrun by the Medes:
Isa 13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, [even] the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
6 ¶ Howl ye; for the day of the LORD [is] at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

17 ¶ Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and [as for] gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 [Their] bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

What are the stars in prophecy? Joseph told his dream, & his father & brothers understood they were the stars bowing down - the heads of the tribes of Israel. (Gen. 37:9-10)

In the NT, "tribes" is only used of Israel, & "the earth" may be the land (of Israel) or soil. It does not imply the whole planet, so all the tribes of the earth can readily be understood as the tribes of Israel, mourning as the prophesied judgment falls on them.

God came to his tabernacle & temple as a pillar of cloud, to take possession as his dwelling among his people. 2Ch 5:14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God. Is it not reasonable to see the cloud of judgment descending on the temple? Jesus warned of his coming to (yes,his coming) to avenge his death:

Mar 12:9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

That, of course, is not the second coming we are looking for, when he comes at the end of time for resurrection & judgment.

[Brother Rick]

Seas and waves roaring? The Son of Man visibly coming in the clouds? Distress of nations? Look up for Israel's redemption draweth nigh.... in 70 A.D.?

You skipped over a lot, brother.

[Covenanter]

Seas and waves roaring? The Son of Man visibly coming in the clouds? Distress of nations? Look up for Israel's redemption draweth nigh.... in 70 A.D.?

You skipped over a lot, brother.

Where do we read "Israel's redemption?"

Before you make all this yet future, note the words of the Lord Jesus: Mar 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, [even] at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Clear warning signs - signs the Jerusalem Christians recognised, so the left the city 42 months before the destruction in AD 70.

When Solomon & the priests saw the cloud, they knew the LORD was there.

Consider: Psa 97:1 ¶ The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad [thereof].
2 Clouds and darkness [are] round about him: righteousness and judgment [are] the habitation of his throne.
3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.
4 His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled.

Jesus is using OT imagery. Disps are very keen to make OT prophecy yet future, yet do not see the Lord's allusions to prophecy.