American Revolution: Biblical or Not?

[Brother Rick]

Minor point: The South didn't succeed - that's why there is no Confederate States of America today. The confederacy tried to secede, but the effort failed (sorry, but that's the Southern journalist in me).

You got me there. It should have been: "So then you agree that the South was wrong in seceding?"

Still waiting for an answer on that one.

By the way, you shouldn't have capitalized "southern". Edited October 22, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[JerryNumbers]

So then you agree that the South was wrong in succeeding?

The answer is in the Bible.

Jas 4:1 ¶ From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot OBtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

[JerryNumbers]

Minor point: The South didn't succeed - that's why there is no Confederate States of America today. The confederacy tried to secede, but the effort failed (sorry, but that's the Southern journalist in me).

I've read that the north fired the 1st shot.

[Brother Rick]

I've read that the north fired the 1st shot.

So did the Brits, and for the same reason - the other side was seceding.

***EDIT: The South fired first at Ft. Sumter. Edited October 22, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[JerryNumbers]

You got me there. It should have been: "So then you agree that the South was wrong in seceding?"

Still waiting for an answer on that one.

By the way, you shouldn't have capitalized "southern".

Would succeeding be wrong if done peaceful?


Of course if you succeed by use of the sword them it would be wrong.


Jesus told Peter that those that lived by the sword died by the sword. You know, that bothered Peter quite a bit. After that he followed Jesus from afar, hung out with the wrong crowd. Even denied Jesus, even cursed, left the ministry. Seemly because Jesus refused to do it his way. Was Peter a coward? Perhaps he was, in that he would have stood by Jesus and fought to his death. Yet he did not want to do things Jesus way.


We are much like him many times.


I've know many men that during war they would fight to their death and they did so in war, being very brave, having saved the lives of their fellow soldiers. They can gather at the coffee shop and talk bodily about many worldly things. Yet when it come to Jesus, their mouth becomes sealed, and they seem not to be able to speak.


Of course with what went on with Peter, it gives us hope. For Peter repented, he was fully restored. Them on the great day of Pentecost he preached a great sermon. Yet the main thing to learn is, we must do it Jesus' way, not our way.

[Brother Rick]

The answer is in the Bible.

Jas 4:1 ¶ From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot OBtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

You keep using this passage, and I keep pointing out that God endorced war all throughout the Old Testament and bears the name of "Man of War."

Not to mention, the encounters Jesus had with soldiers during His earthly ministry were always good, and He never told them to quit the army - He told them to be content with their wages. Edited October 22, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[chev1958]

You got me there. It should have been: "So then you agree that the South was wrong in seceding?"

Still waiting for an answer on that one.

By the way, you shouldn't have capitalized "southern".

Sorry, dude, not wanting to hijack the thread, but I'm from the South, which refers a particular region of the United States that attempted to secede. If I didn't capitalize "Southern," I could have just as easily been from southern Idaho.

[chev1958]

I've read that the north fired the 1st shot.

Uh, Jerry, you need to re-study your Southern history. The Confederate Army fired upon Fort Sumter, S.C., in the first actual shots of the war. One could argue that the federal government set up the circumstances that forced the Confederacy into firing the first shots.

[Brother Rick]

Sorry, dude, not wanting to hijack the thread, but I'm from the South, which refers a particular region of the United States that attempted to secede. If I didn't capitalize "Southern," I could have just as easily been from southern Idaho.

You're prOBably right, "southern" in reference to general location within a nation is capitalized, but within a state or province it is not.

[JerryNumbers]

Uh, Jerry, you need to re-study your Southern history. The Confederate Army fired upon Fort Sumter, S.C., in the first actual shots of the war. One could argue that the federal government set up the circumstances that forced the Confederacy into firing the first shots.

Perhaps it was the Revolutionary War that Britain fired the 1st shot that I was thinking of I was reading some articles written back in those days, but I am not a history buff.

Mitch, You might enjoy this. Edited October 22, 2010 by Jerry80871852

[JerryNumbers]

You keep using this passage, and I keep pointing out that God endorced war all throughout the Old Testament and bears the name of "Man of War."

Not to mention, the encounters Jesus had with soldiers during His earthly ministry were always good, and He never told them to quit the army - He told them to be content with their wages.

Isn't it clear why wars comes about? And isn't lust a sin?

[John81]

1 Samuel 15:23 (King James Version)

23For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.


Notice the first sentence applies to everyone. Notice the second sentence indicates it's God who is to handle the coming and going of kings (leaders).

Next, follow the story. Even though God had rejected Saul, it wasn't yet time for Him to be gone. Though David, God's choice as the next king, had several opportunities to not only bring about a revolution but to even kill Saul, he refused because he knew that leaders are appointed of God and it's not his, nor our, jOB to depose them. God is more than up to the task of establishing and ejecting leaders without our "help".

Rather than try to "help" God, David chose to OBey God, giving honour unto Saul as leader. David had patience and waited upon the Lord to depose Saul in His timing. David didn't give in to the temptation to act on his own, he trusted God, he OBeyed God, he waited upon God.

[rancher824]

As to your last sentence, why was the Revolution acceptable to God when it violated Romans 13? The American colonies, like the Canadian colonies, were under the governmental authority of Great Britain. Those in the American colonies who chose to fight to break away from Great Britain stated as their main reason being excessive taxes. Where does Scripture provide for rising up against ones government because of high taxes? Where in the New Testament are Christians told to rise up against their government for any reason?

Your other questions are very broad and would take much more time to delve into than I have right now...good questions though!

Sorry for not getting back sooner. As for scripture for rissing up for high taxes, you will find that in 1 Kings chapter 12. RehOBoam is to become King in his father, Solomon, place. The people asked that the heavy burden of Solomon be lifted off them. He goes and the old men tell him he should listen to the people and lift it. He then speaks to the young men he grew up with. They tell him he should make it hardeon the people to teach them a lesson for asking. The Bible calls him "the King" yet we find the people turning to JerOBoam to make him King over the ten tribes. They did as the colonists did. And the reason was over taxation, and the Bible says in verse 15 "for the cause was from the Lord, that he might preform his saying" (from the center of the verse). God says he led RehOBoam to increase the burden and punishment so that they people would turn from the king. Who are we to say King George was not led to burden the colonists so that they would declare their independance just as the ten tribes did. I realize this does not give a NT verse saying we can rise up, but it shows that in the OT God used such to bring about what he desired. The colonists never stepped outside of Govt, but declared, as the ten tribes, they were independant. RehOBoam was told by God NOT to rise up against them. Was King George going against Bible example be rising up?

[Wilchbla]

Sorry for not getting back sooner. As for scripture for rissing up for high taxes, you will find that in 1 Kings chapter 12. RehOBoam is to become King in his father, Solomon, place. The people asked that the heavy burden of Solomon be lifted off them. He goes and the old men tell him he should listen to the people and lift it. He then speaks to the young men he grew up with. They tell him he should make it hardeon the people to teach them a lesson for asking. The Bible calls him "the King" yet we find the people turning to JerOBoam to make him King over the ten tribes. They did as the colonists did. And the reason was over taxation, and the Bible says in verse 15 "for the cause was from the Lord, that he might preform his saying" (from the center of the verse). God says he led RehOBoam to increase the burden and punishment so that they people would turn from the king. Who are we to say King George was not led to burden the colonists so that they would declare their independance just as the ten tribes did. I realize this does not give a NT verse saying we can rise up, but it shows that in the OT God used such to bring about what he desired. The colonists never stepped outside of Govt, but declared, as the ten tribes, they were independant. RehOBoam was told by God NOT to rise up against them. Was King George going against Bible example be rising up?

Fascinating. Never thought of this before.

[Wilchbla]

John, Some see to have so much allegiance to this country that it blinds them to the wrongs this country has done on many fronts. These are the one that seems to believe the America way is always the Bible way no matter what the Bible says about the issue.

But according to your interpretation of Romans 13 this is the proper approach. Allegiance no matter what.