Christian support for Homosexuality, Islam....

[CPR]

I have no idea who is telling this joke, I never heard it, and I have never heard it said in a Baptist church in my 63 years that only Baptist will be in heaven. I've never head a person who calls their self a Baptist make such a statement. Oh, that is not something one should joke about, its something to be serious about, it is a matter of souls going to hell. Anyone who can find humor in that is sick.


By the way, Jesus saves, not works, not baptizing, not church membership, that said, check out the Catholics, you will find that they have taught you must be a member of the Catholic church to enter heaven, and the churches of Christ teach one has to be baptized into the church of Christ to enter heaven.

I know for fact that they church of Christ teach this, I've been told by its members, and I have heard some of its pastors state this on TV.

Yes, I know I was making a tongue in cheek statement to make a point.

As far as the joke, it's one of the many poking fun at denominations. I've heard it told lots of times, usually among Baptists! Here it is, it's a clean joke and and old one that I'm pretty sure I first heard from my grandparents so I hope it doesn't offend, certainly not my intent...

"A man, newly arrived in heaven, is being given a tour of the premises by St. Peter. Down the hallway they walked, St. Peter pointing out the doors. “Behind this door, the Catholics. Behind that one, the Presbyterians. And that door over there opens on the Lutherans. But when we pass this next door, we need to tiptoe very quietly.” “Why is that?” the man inquired. “Well,” said St. Peter, “that’s where the Baptists are. And they think they’re the only ones here.”

Edited to add: I know that most denominations do not really teach that they are the only ones who will be in heaven. I know that Baptists do not teach this. However, I think we have to be careful that our words to others (especially those with whom we disagree) reflect the actual beliefs that we say we have. Edited August 14, 2010 by CPR

[ptwild]

These are some good points, and often quite true. But with IFB, a good many churches (most likely all, but I can't say that for sure) have constitutions which give the people the authority to dismiss the pastor if he veers from scripture into unsound doctrine or unbiblical practice. If the congregation studies scripture enough they will know the unsound doctrine and can do something about it - at times. Not always, and that is sad.

We do enjoy the privilege of deciding on our own choice for pastor, though, and (as Mitch said) is something we would be loath to give up. The flip side of that is the offerings which come in. The monies that IFB churches collect are kept within the purview of the individual congregation and disbursement is decided on by that same congregation. Many denominations send their monies to headquarters, or headquarters tells them how the money is to be spent - how much on missions, how much for building, etc., etc. That is another privilege that IFB would be loath to give up, for many reasons, not the least of which is that we don't want our money to be given to something or someone we don't support for biblical reasons.

Church splits are a sad thing, and a mediating authority might be good in such a case. Especially an OBjective one. But there again is the independence. There are pros & cons to both systems. As to the early church, there isn't complete agreement that it was a system of hierarchy at all times. When persecution hit Christianity and they began to scatter, things changed a bit. Paul planted churches and was in the position of advisor (granted an advisor with authority) until he died. No-one took his place, and things changed some more. Until we get to today when I truly don't think any church is just like the first churches.

Mitch, you're exactly right! People seem to need to follow, and the pastor is a good focus for many - sometimes regardless of his doctrine or lifestyle. Even when a church doesn't technically split, when a few members leave here and there for scriptural reasons, people are hurt. My folks went through something like that and were spiritually wounded. God showed us a wonderful church for them and they have healed and thrived, praise the Lord.

Anglicans don't send their offerings to headquarters. The money is kept within the parish and administered by the vestry (who is elected by the congregation) as they see fit. Of course, each parish contributes its share to the support of the dioceses.

Chev1958: You would be known as a vicar in Anglican terminology - you are the leader of a congregation that still relies on another congregation for support. Once your new congregation is able to fully support itself, you would become a rector.

[JerryNumbers]

Yes, I know I was making a tongue in cheek statement to make a point.

As far as the joke, it's one of the many poking fun at denominations. I've heard it told lots of times, usually among Baptists! Here it is, it's a clean joke and and old one that I'm pretty sure I first heard from my grandparents so I hope it doesn't offend, certainly not my intent...

"A man, newly arrived in heaven, is being given a tour of the premises by St. Peter. Down the hallway they walked, St. Peter pointing out the doors. “Behind this door, the Catholics. Behind that one, the Presbyterians. And that door over there opens on the Lutherans. But when we pass this next door, we need to tiptoe very quietly.” “Why is that?” the man inquired. “Well,” said St. Peter, “that’s where the Baptists are. And they think they’re the only ones here.”

Edited to add: I know that most denominations do not really teach that they are the only ones who will be in heaven. I know that Baptists do not teach this. However, I think we have to be careful that our words to others (especially those with whom we disagree) reflect the actual beliefs that we say we have.

There be members of some of these denominations that believe you must be a member of their church in order to enter heaven, yet many of them will not state this outside of their church members. An example of this was several years back I was setting in the coffee shop talking with 2 members of the church of Christ. We were discussing the Bible and being saved, one said, "Those who are not baptized into the churches of Christ will go to hell." The other fellow got on to him saying, "Now don't go around saying that outside of our fellow members of the churches of Christ." I quickly asked him, "I'm a Baptist pastor, I've never been baptized into the churches of Christ, do you believe I'm going to hell?" He would not answer my question yet the other one had no prOBlem speaking his belief.

If you studied what many of the denominations believe, it might very well surprise you. At one time the Roman Catholic forbid its member from reading the Bible, they said your priest or someone higher than him must do the Bible reading, you members cannot understand the Bible, so its best you do not read it. Of course the RCC's beliefs are ever changing.

Those who hold to the oneness doctrine, Pentecostals, they believe one has to be baptized into their church in order to have salvation. And yes, I've been told face to face that without the Pentecostal church I cannot enter heaven.

[HappyChristian]

Anglicans don't send their offerings to headquarters. The money is kept within the parish and administered by the vestry (who is elected by the congregation) as they see fit. Of course, each parish contributes its share to the support of the dioceses.

It sounds like your money handling is much like ours, except that we don't send anything to a diocese or, for lack of a better word, headquarters. We do send money to support missionaries (those our church supports, not to a central location that then sends it out, which is what the Southern Baptists do...not saying it's wrong, just not the way we do it) or other people we believe might need it. One of our favorite times of year is Christmas - we do a Christmas offering that is all for others elsewhere. It's exciting.

[ptwild]

It sounds like your money handling is much like ours, except that we don't send anything to a diocese or, for lack of a better word, headquarters. We do send money to support missionaries (those our church supports, not to a central location that then sends it out, which is what the Southern Baptists do...not saying it's wrong, just not the way we do it) or other people we believe might need it. One of our favorite times of year is Christmas - we do a Christmas offering that is all for others elsewhere. It's exciting.

I'm sure that the administration of most Churches is essentially the same. And we support the dioceses because we do not exist without it. It performs a service, for which we compensate it more or less. It owns the building and it is the office of the Bishop, both of which are essential to our congregation.

[amblivion]

Maybe that old joke about Baptists thinking they are the only ones in heaven has a little bit of truth?

Someone once told this to one of my pastors, and my pastor said, "I am more exclusive than that; I don't believe all Baptists are going to heaven."

[heartstrings]

Someone once told this to one of my pastors, and my pastor said, "I am more exclusive than that; I don't believe all Baptists are going to heaven."

Sad to say, I have to agree with you on that.

[CPR]

Someone once told this to one of my pastors, and my pastor said, "I am more exclusive than that; I don't believe all Baptists are going to heaven."

Haha, my late grandfather (passed away this past Christmas) used to tell some great jokes about various denominations. Most of them were passed around his small southern town, so not necessarily original, but he loved a good joke! Perhaps I'll post some in the humor forum. Edited August 15, 2010 by CPR

[Alimantado]

Without knowing more it's really hard to give a specific answer. There are no perfect churches but there are some very bad churches. When there is no church that fits you really well, one must look for the best possible church available.

Reformed churches vary greatly. Some you would hardly know they had any Calvinist to them at all unless perhaps the pastor was preaching on certain passages in Romans. At the same time, some Reformed churches emphasize such.

There are some good churches out there that don't use the KJB. I know some men who attend a good church that uses the NIV and these men use the NIV and these men are among the spiritually strongest men I know. (I'm not advocating the NIV, myself I find it to be very weak and unfulfilling, but somehow these men manage to grow in the Lord using it) Anyway, my point being that it's possible to find a good church where the Word of God is preached effectively, where the lost could hear the true Gospel and the saved can be edified, even if they don't use the KJB. I attended such a church for a time and I carried a parallel Bible with their MV and the KJB side by side in it.

A few years ago when we were looking for a new church home I spent a great deal of time looking up church websites, reading their "what we believe" statements, reading online sermons of pastors, checking out material I could find from these churches and visiting some. I also asked around, which might help for you or others, but in my case this didn't reap much good.

I never found exactly what I was looking for but I did find a few which seemed worth checking into further. All but two of those failed inspection. One I could have settled upon if there was no other choice, the other (the one we now attend) was very close to what I was looking for.

Most important is to know the pastor is a true born again believer in Christ and that he preaches the Word of God.

Many thanks indeed for this considered response John--lots of advice for me there. Thanks again. Carl

[DennisD]

John, I've asked this question of Jerry Numbers and--if you don't mind--I'll ask the same of you. I'm still searching for a church over here in the UK. I've found it very difficult as a new Christian to tell what a 'good' church is as I know so little of scripture and cannot easily judge how faithful a given church is to God's truth. Many churches teach the same fundamental truths but differ on details and I've yet to find one that wouldn't be condemned by many on this board for one reason or another--it might be reformed in its teachings, or it might allow women to preach, or it might let women have their heads uncovered, or it might not be AV-only, or it might believe in talking in tongues etc etc.

To focus on two of those that come up on this board frequently--Bible versions and Calvinism--I've found out that there are almost no churches left in the UK that are AV-only. As far as I can tell, the only ones left are either Anglican or reformed or both. Many on here would say that a Church that taught reformed doctrine was "yoked to wickedness" and more would say that a church that didn't use the AV was "yoked to wickedness", just as surely as you say that Anglican churches are "yoked to wickedness".

What church would you recommend I attend in the UK, given what I've just told you? Or could you give me any other advice about my situation?



Hi trc123, I think Heartstrings has made an excellent OBservation. Perhaps it is indeed easier to speak out against sins that one is certain they are not guilty of themselves. Relatively few people have homosexual desires and the average Christian does not worry that they might be tempted. Heartstrings brings up defrauding your brother. Another sin listed in that verse is covetousness. I have only ever heard one sermon on covetousness and although I've seen at least half a dozen entire threads on homosexuality in this forum over the past couple of years, I've only seen one member condemn covetousness, that being Jerry Numbers.

Cheers

Carl

This isn't an all encompassing list but maybe a good place to start. Are you close to any of the below? If not, you could prOBably contact one of them and see if they know of a good Church close by to you.

UNITED KINGDOM - BRISTOL - David Woodard Po Box 1043 Yate BRISTOL BS376YE UNITED KINGDOM DWFOXRUN@aol.com 2004/05/04

UNITED KINGDOM-England- Bethel Free Baptist Church Larry Curtis Wardend Road, WARD END Birmingham, England B82QU +44 121 382 5743 www.bethelfreebaptist.com 2008/10/01

United Kingdom - EN - Michael R Child Newland St Royal British Legion Hall Witham EN CM81QS United Kingdom 01144-137-651-4999 http://www.withambaptist.org.uk 2001/12/06

United Kingdom - EN - Steven Richards Barnabas Rd. Homerton EN E95S United Kingdom 011440-208-986-7400 http://www.solfa.co.uk/hbc 2001/08/10

UNITED KINGDOM - ENGLAND - Ron Acrey Netherlands Ave. Low Moor "Bradford, WEST YORKSHIRE" ENGLAND BD58AE UNITED KINGDOM 0-777-176-6963 acreys4england@aol.com 2004/09/17

UNITED KINGDOM - ENGLAND - Larry T Curtis Ward End Road Ward End Birmingham ENGLAND B440HT UNITED KINGDOM 44-121-327-1920 Larrytcurtis@aol.com 2004/09/30

UNITED KINGDOM - LANCASHIRE - 59 WOOD STREET BURY LANCASHIRE BL98LF UNITED KINGDOM http://www.biblebaptistchurch.co.uk 2003/09/25

UNITED KINGDOM - Lancashire - W A Smith % 110 Hemingway Blackpool Lancashire FY43DR UNITED KINGDOM 011440-125-340-6030 dsmith1976@aol.com 2004/01/03

UNITED KINGDOM - NORTHERN IRELAND - David H Moore 2 Braehill Park Belfast NORTHERN IRELAND BT399AZ UNITED KINGDOM 0-289-335-4611 pastordavidmoore@hotmail.com http://www.braehill.com 2004/03/27

United Kingdom - Northern Ireland - Mark Bradfield 32 MOBuoy Road "Campsie, Co." Londonderry Northern Ireland BT473JG United Kingdom 01144-287-186-0420 2004/05/04

UNITED KINGDOM - SCOTLAND - Jim M Males Church St High Bonnybridge SCOTLAND FK13BE UNITED KINGDOM 01144-132-472-0287 jmalesbaptist@aol.com 2003/12/08

UNITED KINGDOM - Scotland - Carl Miller 22 High St In The Upper Rooms "Inverurie, Aberdeenshire" Scotland AB518XH UNITED KINGDOM 0-778-633-0316 crmillerscotland@aol.com 2004/08/16

United Kingdom - SCOTLAND - Alfred R Waters 14 Wilson Drive Hawick Roxburgshire SCOTLAND TD98HP United Kingdom 2004/01/11

UNITED KINGDOM - SUFFOLK - Tom Adams Kenny Hill Bury St Edmunds SUFFOLK IP288DT UNITED KINGDOM 0-135-367-5200 ntbaptistchurch@enterprise.net 2002/09/11

[DennisD]

I think a lot of my concerns were posted and if I say something that's already been said, I apologize.

I think those that have only been part of one Church their entire life sometimes have misconceptions (we all do it for sure). A huge misconception about IFB is that well..they are called "Independent" but they must answer to someone. We've seen that is not true. The members take care of all the "administrative" issues and Christ is the head of the Church. There is a good reason for this and one other Churches should see...you don't have anyone that can basically pull the rug out from under your feet. You own your own building (or use tithes to pay rent...and if your membership gets too low and can't pay your rent...you find a place that suits your needs). We can use our money to help missionaries as we see fit (we give $125 a month to I believe 15 missionaries at the moment)...we've helped one in Siberia get siding on his house for the terrible winter, we've helped some buy cars, etc. It's just a wonderful feeling to know God has blessed us to provide those types of monies for His glory.

The other thing I love about our Church is we take one offering per weeek (Sunday morning service) and all of our finances are based only on the tithes/love offerings/faith promises of our members. We don't go out doing bake sales or car washes, etc because it's better to rely on your members to know what you can afford and what you can't. Surely God can provide so why should we go out and get money from bake sales or the like?

Lastly, Pastors don't have as much power as some might believe. Although, I'm unsure why starting a Church would give someone power. Surely, it's biblical to listen to them and love them and they are put there to guard the flock. Pastors are OBligated to bring to a vote if certain monies are to be used (as I had stated above) and don't go out on their own (unless extenuating circumstances). Our Pastor did that once with about $200 and he came to us the next service and apologized and asked for our forgiveness but he had a good reason...a missionary needed help right away. Of course...if we had decided he shouldn't have used the money he would have paid it back out of his own pocket. I'm thankful to God for our Pastor...he is a wonderful man and friend, I love him very much.

[JerryNumbers]

I think a lot of my concerns were posted and if I say something that's already been said, I apologize.

I think those that have only been part of one Church their entire life sometimes have misconceptions (we all do it for sure). A huge misconception about IFB is that well..they are called "Independent" but they must answer to someone. We've seen that is not true. The members take care of all the "administrative" issues and Christ is the head of the Church. There is a good reason for this and one other Churches should see...you don't have anyone that can basically pull the rug out from under your feet. You own your own building (or use tithes to pay rent...and if your membership gets too low and can't pay your rent...you find a place that suits your needs). We can use our money to help missionaries as we see fit (we give $125 a month to I believe 15 missionaries at the moment)...we've helped one in Siberia get siding on his house for the terrible winter, we've helped some buy cars, etc. It's just a wonderful feeling to know God has blessed us to provide those types of monies for His glory.

The other thing I love about our Church is we take one offering per weeek (Sunday morning service) and all of our finances are based only on the tithes/love offerings/faith promises of our members. We don't go out doing bake sales or car washes, etc because it's better to rely on your members to know what you can afford and what you can't. Surely God can provide so why should we go out and get money from bake sales or the like?

Lastly, Pastors don't have as much power as some might believe. Although, I'm unsure why starting a Church would give someone power. Surely, it's biblical to listen to them and love them and they are put there to guard the flock. Pastors are OBligated to bring to a vote if certain monies are to be used (as I had stated above) and don't go out on their own (unless extenuating circumstances). Our Pastor did that once with about $200 and he came to us the next service and apologized and asked for our forgiveness but he had a good reason...a missionary needed help right away. Of course...if we had decided he shouldn't have used the money he would have paid it back out of his own pocket. I'm thankful to God for our Pastor...he is a wonderful man and friend, I love him very much.

It seems that some pastors try to Lord over Jesus Church that the Holy Spirit has put them in charge of.

Of course there be a few thing which might come up where someone needs to be able to spend money on certain things at a time where its impossible to get church approval.

For instants a long time back the water pump had gone out at our church. Our pastor called me and asked for my help in installing a new pump which he charged to our church. Of course everyone was happy that it had been repaired come Sunday morning. i would think the same thing would be ture in winter if the heater had gone out, and or summer if the air conditioner had gone out.