Do you believe.....

[Alimantado]

Seth is right. Let's look at some of the evidence that PE himself provided. Here are the two biological definitions of dinosaur given in the dictionary he cites:

[quote]
1 : any of a [i][b]group (Dinosauria)[/b][/i] of extinct often very large chiefly terrestrial carnivorous or herbivorous reptiles of the Mesozoic era
2 : any of various large extinct reptiles (as ichthyosaurs) other than the [b][i]true[/i][/b] dinosaurs
[/quote]
In summary, then, something is a Dinosaur if it falls into the taxanomic group Dinosauria. PE quotes Richard Owen, so let's see why he came up with the term 'dinosaur':

[quote="Richard Owen"]The combination of such characters, some, as the sacral ones, altogether peculiar among Reptiles, [i]others borrowed, as it were, from groups now distinct from each other[/i], and all manifested by creatures far surpassing in size the largest living reptiles, will, it is presumed be deemed sufficient ground for establishing a distinct tribe or sub-order of Saurian Reptiles, for which I would propose the name of Dinosauria. [/quote]
In other words, they already had the term 'lizard' but Owen came up with the term 'dinosaur' to describe an order of lizards that possessed a common set of distinct features. Size was just [i]one[/i] of those features, so, in response to PE's point here:

[quote="PE"]...there are dinosaurs alive today. We call them lizards, albeit not all lizards are terrible. I can promise you this...if you ever get the chance to tangle with a 10 foot long Komodo Dragon...you will know what "terrible" is.[/quote]

...the word dinosaur has never correctly been used to describe any lizard you think looks jolly terrible. You're free to use the word like that if you want, but you're not using the word properly. The second dictionary definition above identifies this: lay people tend to use the word to describe any big extinct lizard, even if it's not a "true" dinosaur.

Question for PE: if 'Dinosaur' just means 'big lizard', how can a lizard be big yet not be a "true" dinosaur, as your own dictionary quote says can be the case?

Today, 'Dinosaura' is an order of the class Reptilia. As far as I know, no living creatures fall into this order. All the living reptiles fall into one of the other orders under Reptilia. Komodo Dragon and species of iguana are both in the order Squamata, not Dinosaura.

And before anyone rejects this as evolutionist rubbish, Seth can confirm that the taxonomic system in which the word 'Dinosaur' belongs pre-dates the Theory of Evolution and is used by creationists and evolutionists alike.

Seth is also right about the indeterminate growth argument. The growth of reptiles and fish happens according to the classic 'growth curve':
[img]http://www.fao.org/docrep/w5449e/w5449egt.gif[/img]
You still get this curve with unlimited resources, otherwise anglers would have grown 50ft trout by now.

[trc123]

[quote="Jerry"]God has revealed that which He deems we ought to know and nothing else. We should never use speculations to come to a decision about something. I think man uses his imagination to dream us some rather large tales. The some start believing the tales are truth.[/quote]

I totally agree, too many make statements about things that God "can not" or "will not" do based upon their preconceived notions with absolutely no Scripture that addresses the matter whatsoever.

[deafnva77]

I totally agree, too many make statements about things that God "can not" or "will not" do based upon their preconceived notions with absolutely no Scripture that addresses the matter whatsoever.

I wonder how you address death and curse of sins to people (or explain about Adam and Eve) to a person who struggle with dinosaurs living over 100,000 before humans and the bible... especially there were many deaths before that time period.

We can take the old Scofield approach on Gap Theory, or Progressive creationism, or Theistic evolution

yes, I agree about speculation. If I don't know where Cain got his wife, I shouldn't be going around guessing. I may express my opinion, but I wouldn't treat it as a fact.

[Annie]

yes' date=' I agree about speculation. If I don't know where Cain got his wife, I shouldn't be going around guessing. I may express my opinion, but I wouldn't treat it as a fact.[/quote']

Hear, hear! Speculation has its place (it's fun!), but it is important to recognize it for what it is.

Regarding dinosaurs...I'm curious about what Seth and other skeptics think those HUUUUUUUGE fossils are....We can talk all day about indeterminate growth, but the evidence undeniably points to the undeniable existence of super-big living creatures. The book of Job speaks of leviathan and other monsters. If these bones aren't reptile/lizard/dinosaur bones, then what are they?

[trc123]

Answer: Aliens! :lol:

[IM4given]

Ok Seth,

I'll spell it all out for you.

From Mirriam Webster's dictionary:::::::::::::::::::

Main Entry: di

[Alimantado]

[quote="Annie"][quote="deafnva77"]yes, I agree about speculation. If I don't know where Cain got his wife, I shouldn't be going around guessing. I may express my opinion, but I wouldn't treat it as a fact.[/quote]

Hear, hear! Speculation has its place (it's fun!), but it is important to recognize it for what it is.

Regarding dinosaurs...I'm curious about what Seth and other skeptics think those HUUUUUUUGE fossils are....We can talk all day about indeterminate growth, but the evidence undeniably points to the undeniable existence of super-big living creatures. The book of Job speaks of leviathan and other monsters. If these bones aren't reptile/lizard/dinosaur bones, then what are they?[/quote]

I think you might be confusing an appeal for the word 'dinosaur' to be used properly (i.e. to describe a specific order of reptiles) with 'skepticism' about the existence of big reptiles. Everyone who's chimed in on this thread so far (including Seth) seems to agree that big reptiles once existed on this planet and that fossils really are the remains of these creatures.

I'm not a young-earth Creationist, but I can see that the simplest young-earth explanation for dinosaurs is that they are...er....dinosaurs. Creatures that were created to grow very big, did grow very big, but are now all extinct. That's a simpler explanation than saying that actually they're not extinct but just don't grow as big anymore because the atmosphere has changed. Both theories are speculation but the former is simpler.

[Alimantado]

[quote="IM4given"][quote="pneu-engine"] Seth, If you will honestly examine all of the evidence Steve Grohman shows you may even agree with him that there are dinosaurs alive today. [/quote]
:amen: :goodpost: :amen:
This is a really good thread - it clearly deliniates those who actually BELIEVE the Bible and those who don't![/quote]
Well, that post was specifically in opposition to Seth's view. So if you think it delineates who believes the Bible and who doesn't, then according to you either Seth Doty or Pneu Engine doesn't believe the Bible.

For a while I thought I was the only non-believer on this forum, but then Kevin Miller was 'reclassified' a month or so back and now I can welcome Seth Doty into the atheist fold too! Woo hoo! :wink

[Anon]

[quote="Alimantado"][quote="Annie"][quote="deafnva77"]yes, I agree about speculation. If I don't know where Cain got his wife, I shouldn't be going around guessing. I may express my opinion, but I wouldn't treat it as a fact.[/quote]

Hear, hear! Speculation has its place (it's fun!), but it is important to recognize it for what it is.

Regarding dinosaurs...I'm curious about what Seth and other skeptics think those HUUUUUUUGE fossils are....We can talk all day about indeterminate growth, but the evidence undeniably points to the undeniable existence of super-big living creatures. The book of Job speaks of leviathan and other monsters. If these bones aren't reptile/lizard/dinosaur bones, then what are they?[/quote]

I think you might be confusing an appeal for the word 'dinosaur' to be used properly (i.e. to describe a specific order of reptiles) with 'skepticism' about the existence of big reptiles. Everyone who's chimed in on this thread so far (including Seth) seems to agree that big reptiles once existed on this planet and that fossils really are the remains of these creatures.

I'm not a young-earth Creationist, but I can see that the simplest young-earth explanation for dinosaurs is that they are...er....dinosaurs. Creatures that were created to grow very big, did grow very big, but are now all extinct. That's a simpler explanation than saying that actually they're not extinct but just don't grow as big anymore because the atmosphere has changed. Both theories are speculation but the former is simpler.[/quote]

I wasn't saying they are smaller now....I just meant that the bigger animals/reptiles in general were made extinct after the flood, because animals didn't grow that way anymore.

Fossils show, as well as dinosaurs, very large insects and birds and other organisms that also became extinct after the flood. Fossils even show that much greenery was larger before the flood. I'm not saying dinosaurs just shrunk...I"m saying that all those species became extinct, and the larger species (mammoths, etc) could not survive the new climate.

Incidentally the ice that mammoths are frozen in (one of my favorite "prehistoric" animals) is floodwaters!!!! When the flood came upon the earth, the poles were instantly exposed to the raw cold air of space and froze them in their tracks. Pretty neat in light of the Bible.

[trc123]

[quote="Alimantado"][quote="IM4given"][quote="pneu-engine"] Seth, If you will honestly examine all of the evidence Steve Grohman shows you may even agree with him that there are dinosaurs alive today. [/quote]
:amen: :goodpost: :amen:
This is a really good thread - it clearly deliniates those who actually BELIEVE the Bible and those who don't![/quote]
Well, that post was specifically in opposition to Seth's view. So if you think it delineates who believes the Bible and who doesn't, then according to you either Seth Doty or Pneu Engine doesn't believe the Bible.

For a while I thought I was the only non-believer on this forum, but then Kevin Miller was 'reclassified' a month or so back and now I can welcome Seth Doty into the atheist fold too! Woo hoo! :wink[/quote]

I think it more clearly delineates who reads or doesn't read their Bible more than who does or does not believe!

[trc123]

[quote="Kitagrl"]Incidentally the ice that mammoths are frozen in (one of my favorite "prehistoric" animals) is floodwaters!!!! When the flood came upon the earth, the poles were instantly exposed to the raw cold air of space and froze them in their tracks. Pretty neat in light of the Bible.[/quote]

Wow, talk about some speculation..................tell us more about this "raw cold air of space." Did space have "air" in it? Was there a hole in the earth's atmosphere which allowed this "cold air of space" to rush into the poles, thus flash freezing everything? Please, explain. This is the first time I've ever heard this referenced and would love to know a bit more about this and the Bible references. Very curious now..............

[Anon]

[quote="trc123"][quote="Kitagrl"]Incidentally the ice that mammoths are frozen in (one of my favorite "prehistoric" animals) is floodwaters!!!! When the flood came upon the earth, the poles were instantly exposed to the raw cold air of space and froze them in their tracks. Pretty neat in light of the Bible.[/quote]

Wow, talk about some speculation..................tell us more about this "raw cold air of space." Did space have "air" in it? Was there a hole in the earth's atmosphere which allowed this "cold air of space" to rush into the poles, thus flash freezing everything? Please, explain. This is the first time I've ever heard this referenced and would love to know a bit more about this and the Bible references. Very curious now..............[/quote]

The flood waters came from the water vapor canopy as well as under the earth...the earth had a greenhouse effect before the flood. When God caused the flood, there was no more greenhouse effect and thus the poles were instantly exposed to the cold air that they are exposed to today.

You can either accept the evolutionary reason there are mammoths and greenlife up at the poles, or the flood explanation.

[trc123]

[quote="Kitagrl"][quote="trc123"][quote="Kitagrl"]Incidentally the ice that mammoths are frozen in (one of my favorite "prehistoric" animals) is floodwaters!!!! When the flood came upon the earth, the poles were instantly exposed to the raw cold air of space and froze them in their tracks. Pretty neat in light of the Bible.[/quote]

Wow, talk about some speculation..................tell us more about this "raw cold air of space." Did space have "air" in it? Was there a hole in the earth's atmosphere which allowed this "cold air of space" to rush into the poles, thus flash freezing everything? Please, explain. This is the first time I've ever heard this referenced and would love to know a bit more about this and the Bible references. Very curious now..............[/quote]

The flood waters came from the water vapor canopy as well as under the earth...the earth had a greenhouse effect before the flood. When God caused the flood, there was no more greenhouse effect and thus the poles were instantly exposed to the cold air that they are exposed to today.

You can either accept the evolutionary reason there are mammoths and greenlife up at the poles, or the flood explanation.[/quote]

I believe there was a flood; and what you explained may have been the way it happened.....but I've never read that in the Bible before. I thought you were saying air moved from outer space into the earth's atmosphere (I see now that is not what you meant).

[Anon]

Yeah I was unclear....I just meant that the poles were protected until the flood...which is why mammoths were there...and why they were frozen in time.

"Global warming" (if you believe in it LOL) will never reach antediluvian proportions.

[pneu-engine]

[quote="Kitagrl"]Incidentally the ice that mammoths are frozen in (one of my favorite "prehistoric" animals) is floodwaters!!!! When the flood came upon the earth, the poles were instantly exposed to the raw cold air of space and froze them in their tracks. Pretty neat in light of the Bible.[/quote]
:amen: :thumb

We prove this concept everytime we make homemade ice-cream. It works like this:::::::::

When the canopy that produced the hyperbaric chamber, or sauna-like climate, was removed cold air-masses were the order of the day (and night :Green ). Add to the removal of the heated air and now we have sub-zero cold. i.e. It was verrrry, verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry cold. On top of that there would naturally have been wave-fronts sloshing the icy waters back and forth. We know this because the Bible tells us that the waters from the deeps were broken up. There would have been massive faults in the tectonic plates that comprise the earth's crust causing earthquakes. These fault-line shifts cause tsunamis when they occur on the ocean floor. The churning of the waters and the tremendous cold produce a huge quick freeze to anything in those waters.