A few questions on predestination

[anime4christ]

I agree with what you're saying in this post, Jerry80871852, I have just come to believe that ultimately, everything traces back to God in the Bible and in our practical living, in addition to what you have said. I know it is logically impossible, but I believe it the same way you said that you would answer yes to the question "Can God make a stone so large that He cannot lift it?" and then say that He can lift it. Other than that, it doesn't seem to me we really disagree on anything else, and it doesn't seem to me that either of us is convincing the other. In the end, I think the prOBlem is that we cannot fully understand this area so it would prOBably be better to leave it at that.

I understand too, that Calvinist Churches do not offer invitations at the end of their services. You can figure that one out.

Hmm, my current Arminianistic church doesn't offer an invitation every service either, for which I believe they don't have an excuse if they are Arminian. On the Calvinist side, I see their reasoning for that being that an invitation is not necessary if the Holy Spirit has touched a person because it is not of the preacher who invites, but of God who saves. In any case, both still preach the Gospel at their services.

[anime4christ]

Whenever we have something in common about Christ dying for our sins, It is very hard to share the gospel with someone when someone else chime in and bring up calvinism because we are wrong on how we interpret the Gospel of Christ.

That, I believe, is wrong from either side. I will discuss the matter with people in person, but I will not interrupt someone preaching the Gospel or condemn someone who understands sotoriology differently than I do.

[JerryNumbers]

Remember, the invitation given, is just an opportunity to get saved, perhaps to join the church by letter, statement, baptizing, perhaps ask the pastor for prayer, rededicate one's life, maybe come to the altar and pray, nothing more, it's always God who gives the increase.



I had a pastor friend who was invited to a church in view of call. He did not realize it was a Calvinist church, but he found out after preaching a message on salvation that morning, they made it plain, they did not want to hear such sermons and we do not have invitations.

[heartstrings]

Remember, the invitation given, is just an opportunity to get saved, perhaps to join the church by letter, statement, baptizing, perhaps ask the pastor for prayer, rededicate one's life, maybe come to the alter and pray, nothing more, its always God who gives the increase.



I had a pastor friend who was invited to a church in view of call. He did not realize it was a Calvinist church, but he found out after preaching a message on salvation that morning, they made it plain, they did not want to hear such sermons and we do not have invitations.

I didn't know this, Jerry. I was visiting an IFB church a few weeks ago, and remember being puzzled that they did not have an invitation. Now I'm curious.

[Reformation Man35]

I just wanted to say to you chaps, that I have enjoyed the conversations. I can appreciate what everyone is doing on this website. I know you guys are genuine and that is respectable. I look forward to continue discussing matters of the faith with you.

[JerryNumbers]

I didn't know this, Jerry. I was visiting an IFB church a few weeks ago, and remember being puzzled that they did not have an invitation. Now I'm curious.

It might be that church is of the reformed theology, not saying it is. Generally those that believe the Calvinist doctrine do not offer and invitation. I do not claim to know all the reasons for that, but perhaps they feel they might lead someone who they believe can't be saved into trying to accept Jesus as their Savior. We know one thing for sure, they do not believe the 'whosoever' that is found in many verses clearly proving that all men cam be saved only if they're willing to accept the free gift offer by God through Jesus.

[Reformation Man35]

Nevermind...lol.

[Psalms18_28]

That, I believe, is wrong from either side. I will discuss the matter with people in person, but I will not interrupt someone preaching the Gospel or condemn someone who understands sotoriology differently than I do.

while it is true, but who find comfort in the Gospel when Westboro Baptist Church march around saying God hate you? They are calvinists as well (Don't believe me, look up their statement of beliefs in their website). That's when I do step in (and I'm sure you would to).

[heartstrings]

while it is true, but who find comfort in the Gospel when Westboro Baptist Church march around saying God hate you? They are calvinists as well (Don't believe me, look up their statement of beliefs in their website). That's when I do step in (and I'm sure you would to).

If somebody began teaching the kind of stuff Fred Phelps and his bunch teach, or even if a preacher starts promoting Calvinism, "the 5 points", or whatever you want to call it, I would get up and walk out.

[JerryNumbers]

If somebody began teaching the kind of stuff Fred Phelps and his bunch teach, or even if a preacher starts promoting Calvinism, "the 5 points", or whatever you want to call it, I would get up and walk out.

I would septate from it, for its evil, its dangerous, and its not in the Bible.

[John81]

I've not noticed anyone here saying they believe God is responsible for mans sins.

As for invitations at the end of services I don't think that's necessarily a matter of whether a church is Calvinist or not. I've been to and heard of Calvinist churches which do have altar calls and some that don't. The same is true of many other churches. Over the years I'd say the majority of churches I've visited or attended for awile didn't have altar calls. At the same time, some churches which don't regularly hold forth an invitation at the end of each service sometimes do so on occasion.

In the end, if the Gospel is rightly presented the lost soul which has been reached by the Holy Ghost will be saved without walking to the front of the church. The vast majority of saved folks I know never walked an aisle.

With regards to Phelps and his "church", it really doesn't matter what he professes to stand for or against since he clearly doesn't stand for the Word of God. The man chooses to align himself with some in order to taint them and chooses to stand against others in order to draw attention to himself. None of it has to do with the rightness of Scripture but rather about Phelps and works of the devil.

[anime4christ]

John81

[Invicta]

You seem to keep taking the free will of man from him, thus making God responsible for all sin. That is false teaching. You cannot take the free will of man away from him, them say everything evil man does without making God responsible for man's sin.

I do not know any Calvinist pastors personally, all pastors I know reject it as false and dangerous teachings. But it seems on the rise for it keeps being brought up here. I might add in case you don't know this, it seems most churches who call their self reformed are Calvinist in belief.

I understand too, that Calvinist Churches do not offer invitations at the end of their services. You can figure that one out.

Go back to the garden, its easy to understand that both Adam and Eve by their very own choice, free will, chose to disOBey God. And man has been doing so ever since.

Most reformed churches, that I know (practically all those that are not reformed are charismatic, or liberal) believe in preaching the gospel and then leaving it to the Lord, so they do not necessarily issue an invitation, although they may. Americans seem to call it an "altar call" but we do not have altars, they are for sacrifice as in the mass.

Reformed teaching does not say that God is responsible for man's sins, but that God is responsible for rescuing us from our sins. "You didn't choose me, I chose you."

[JerryNumbers]

I've not noticed anyone here saying they believe God is responsible for mans sins.

As for invitations at the end of services I don't think that's necessarily a matter of whether a church is Calvinist or not. I've been to and heard of Calvinist churches which do have altar calls and some that don't. The same is true of many other churches. Over the years I'd say the majority of churches I've visited or attended for awile didn't have altar calls. At the same time, some churches which don't regularly hold forth an invitation at the end of each service sometimes do so on occasion.

In the end, if the Gospel is rightly presented the lost soul which has been reached by the Holy Ghost will be saved without walking to the front of the church. The vast majority of saved folks I know never walked an aisle.

With regards to Phelps and his "church", it really doesn't matter what he professes to stand for or against since he clearly doesn't stand for the Word of God. The man chooses to align himself with some in order to taint them and chooses to stand against others in order to draw attention to himself. None of it has to do with the rightness of Scripture but rather about Phelps and works of the devil.

If men do not have free will, and are doing as God directs them, them God is responsible for their sins. The only way man can be responsible is if they have free will. And of course the Bible is clear, everyone will give account to God for all of their deeds.

As for the invitation, I did not make a blanket statement, I did not say I know why they fail to offer and invitation. But I do know that many of them do not, for some of those who hold to the Calvinist views have stated so right here on this message board.

That said, Calvinist teaches a false message, for there is no so call TULIP doctrine in the pages of the Bible. It is only commandments of men.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

[John81]

There may be some who proclaim there is no free will, though I haven't noticed that here.

God can allow free will and still be in full control. God knows everyone will sin yet He sometimes chooses to limit the sins we can commit. Just because God causes one would be rapist to break his leg and thus end his spree, God also chooses to allow another to continue for a time. God doesn't cause the rapist to rape but that rapist can't rape unless God allows it for His own reasons that we may not be able to grasp.

Scripture declares that nothing happens without God either directly causing it or allowing it. Nothing.

For a human persepctive consider how a parent can prevent their child from falling when they are learning to walk. The parent can hold the child, hover over the child and make sure the child can't get up if he isn't there. However, don't parents generally eventually allow their child to walk on their own even though they know the child will fall and sometimes might even get a boo-boo? The parent could have prevented the child from falling and getting a boo-boo but the parent chose to allow the child to fall yet the parent didn't cause the child to fall. Through it all, the parent was in control.

Regarding TULIP, I know of many who call themselves Calvinist but don't hold to TULIP. At the same time, I've know many who hold to different interpretations of TULIP.

I know they are out there, but I've never personally met a Calvinist who doesn't believe in preaching the Gospel and witnessing.

An invitation is a churches choice. If a person is coming to Christ the Holy Ghost can bring them in without someone issueing and invitation. Most often, in the churches I attended where invitations were given, a few of those already saved would go forward (often the same ones) and nOBody else, service after service.