Sheep and Goats

Invicta · January 31, 2010

Invicta, You wrote above that you believe that the Jew's will be converted but before the Lord returns. This is confusing me. So then when His Word say's Israel, do you not believe that is literally Israel? Than who whould you say that "Israel" is referring to? Would you be willing to just list the verses that have convienced you that the Jew's are converted before the Lord return's? If you have some time to explain your view that would be nice yet understand life is busy. Just the verses would help me see where your coming from if your too busy to explain!! Thank You!!! In Christ, His by Grace

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from JacOB:

As salvation depends on repentance, then as I see it, this must be before the return of the Lord.

His by Grace · February 1, 2010

Invicta, Our undrestanding isn't far off yet out timeline is what differs. See, I'm persuaded that in Romans 11:25 Is when Israel's present blindness will be taken away and they will then see that Christ is the true Messiah Yet we must be Raptured before they come to Him as such because of these verses...Matthew 13 talks about His Present Church being separated--the His Chidren vs. the professing church. One example is the separating of the Wheat vs. Tares. Then Rapture, no where dated in prophicies of the O.T. people leads me also to believe this happen's first. See I Cor. 15:51-58 and I Thess. 4: 13-18 this is where where the Church is removed from the Earth...the dead in Christ rise first and then the living Christians are caught up to heaven without dying...and so shall they ever be!! The professing church will be left only now. Now I believe all is clear from His Word and that's all you need! Just read Daniel 9:26 thru 11 then peace and tranquility are gone read Ezekiel chapter 38 and 39 now look at Rev. 13:7 then see how Daniel spoke of this Daniel 7:23 and read Rev. 13: 16 -17. This is where the time of JacOB's trouble falls in Jeremiah 30:7. Read Daniel 12:11 thenZech 13:8. Now Rev. 13:8-15. if you'll just keep reading Daniel and Rev. like this you'll see how it was predicted in the O>T> for Israel and what is then told to us in Rev. will happen all over again. If you want me to keep giving the verses in daniel that responf to Rev. I will but I didn't mean to point out event's I was wanting you to just read and let the Holy Spirit allow you to see something's that perhap's you haven't seen before. Reading Matt.all of Chapter 24 will give you the timeline right from His mouth .You may know all this and still believe all Israel is saved by by Roman's 11: 26. I'm persuaded it is after the Rapture because the presnt church will be removed from everything I can see in His Word. I felt the need to explain why our timeline is different. I don't know if you don't believe in the Rapture or/ and the Second coming as two separate event's. That's all I've been able to explain with the timeline difference. I would love for all Israel to come to Him now yet the Temple isnt even rebuilt agin yet! There is so much ! I will just stop!! Let me know what you think, alright? In Christ, His by Grace

Invicta · February 3, 2010

Invicta, Our undrestanding isn't far off yet out timeline is what differs. See, I'm persuaded that in Romans 11:25 Is when Israel's present blindness will be taken away and they will then see that Christ is the true Messiah Yet we must be Raptured before they come to Him as such because of these verses...Matthew 13 talks about His Present Church being separated--the His Chidren vs. the professing church. One example is the separating of the Wheat vs. Tares. Then Rapture, no where dated in prophicies of the O.T. people leads me also to believe this happen's first. See I Cor. 15:51-58 and I Thess. 4: 13-18 this is where where the Church is removed from the Earth...the dead in Christ rise first and then the living Christians are caught up to heaven without dying...and so shall they ever be!! The professing church will be left only now. Now I believe all is clear from His Word and that's all you need! Just read Daniel 9:26 thru 11 then peace and tranquility are gone read Ezekiel chapter 38 and 39 now look at Rev. 13:7 then see how Daniel spoke of this Daniel 7:23 and read Rev. 13: 16 -17. This is where the time of JacOB's trouble falls in Jeremiah 30:7. Read Daniel 12:11 thenZech 13:8. Now Rev. 13:8-15. if you'll just keep reading Daniel and Rev. like this you'll see how it was predicted in the O>T> for Israel and what is then told to us in Rev. will happen all over again. If you want me to keep giving the verses in daniel that responf to Rev. I will but I didn't mean to point out event's I was wanting you to just read and let the Holy Spirit allow you to see something's that perhap's you haven't seen before. Reading Matt.all of Chapter 24 will give you the timeline right from His mouth .You may know all this and still believe all Israel is saved by by Roman's 11: 26. I'm persuaded it is after the Rapture because the presnt church will be removed from everything I can see in His Word. I felt the need to explain why our timeline is different. I don't know if you don't believe in the Rapture or/ and the Second coming as two separate event's. That's all I've been able to explain with the timeline difference. I would love for all Israel to come to Him now yet the Temple isnt even rebuilt agin yet! There is so much ! I will just stop!! Let me know what you think, alright? In Christ, His by Grace

It is a lot to reply to but you have a different understanding of prophecy than I have. The Pretribulation Rapture theory is relatively new and the first protestant to incorporate it as far as I can trace was Mr Maitland, librarian to the Archbishop of Canterbury, in about 1825. It was then taught by Edward Irving and his followers, charismatics from about 1828-9. It was then picked up by J N Darby, known as the Father of Dispensationalism, who went to the same prophetic conferences as Irving. Darby introduced it to his followers, the Plymouth Brethren and in the UK they were the main propagators of this teaching. Darby went to the US and met with Scofield who absorbed this new teaching and it spread through the US and the world.

I will start with Daniel 9

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
I think most will agree that the weeks are years, 490 years in all. What we will disagree with is that there is a gap between the 69th year and the 70th. "thy people and upon thy holy city" generally accepted that it is the Jews and Jerusalem. This I also believe, but would not be surprised if, in the end, we find it refers the believers and the Church as the Holy City.
"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness," This jesus did by his death on the cross. "and to seal up the vision and prophecy," This was completed by John the Baptist
Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
The most Holy was Jesus Christ who was Baptized by John. The 70th week began with the baptism of Jesus when he was annointed by the Holy Spirit Luke 3: 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

His anointing not only fulfilled the prophecy in Isaiah as given by Luke.18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. it also fulfilled this prophecy of the anointing in Daniel. Jesus was also the Holy One. Luke 4:34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

There were to be 69 weeks to the coming of the Messiah, ie his annointing.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Messish was cut off after the 69th week, ie the 70th week. We know he was cut off for his people. The people of the prince that shall come were the Romans and the prince, Titus whose army destroyed the temple against his orders and it was literally his people and not the prince whdestored the sanctuary. This was a result of the the events in the 70th week and not a part of it.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It was Messiah who confirmed the covenant with the Jews for one week. He caused the sacrifice to cease by his death, as after that there was no need for a further sacrifice. Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It cannot be the prince who was to confirm the covenant as he was not the subject of the sentence, his people were. Also it says THE covenant which can only mean God's covenant. The second

JerryNumbers · February 3, 2010

It is a lot to reply to but you have a different understanding of prophecy than I have. The Pretribulation Rapture theory is relatively new and the first protestant to incorporate it as far as I can trace was Mr Maitland, librarian to the Archbishop of Canterbury, in about 1825. It was then taught by Edward Irving and his followers, charismatics from about 1828-9. It was then picked up by J N Darby, known as the Father of Dispensationalism, who went to the same prophetic conferences as Irving. Darby introduced it to his followers, the Plymouth Brethren and in the UK they were the main propagators of this teaching. Darby went to the US and met with Scofield who absorbed this new teaching and it spread through the US and the world.

I will start with Daniel 9

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
I think most will agree that the weeks are years, 490 years in all. What we will disagree with is that there is a gap between the 69th year and the 70th. "thy people and upon thy holy city" generally accepted that it is the Jews and Jerusalem. This I also believe, but would not be surprised if, in the end, we find it refers the believers and the Church as the Holy City.
"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness," This jesus did by his death on the cross. "and to seal up the vision and prophecy," This was completed by John the Baptist
Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
The most Holy was Jesus Christ who was Baptized by John. The 70th week began with the baptism of Jesus when he was annointed by the Holy Spirit Luke 3: 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

His anointing not only fulfilled the prophecy in Isaiah as given by Luke.18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. it also fulfilled this prophecy of the anointing in Daniel. Jesus was also the Holy One. Luke 4:34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

There were to be 69 weeks to the coming of the Messiah, ie his annointing.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Messish was cut off after the 69th week, ie the 70th week. We know he was cut off for his people. The people of the prince that shall come were the Romans and the prince, Titus whose army destroyed the temple against his orders and it was literally his people and not the prince whdestored the sanctuary. This was a result of the the events in the 70th week and not a part of it.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It was Messiah who confirmed the covenant with the Jews for one week. He caused the sacrifice to cease by his death, as after that there was no need for a further sacrifice. Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It cannot be the prince who was to confirm the covenant as he was not the subject of the sentence, his people were. Also it says THE covenant which can only mean God's covenant. The second

Invicta · February 3, 2010

It IS new, and it is not in the bible. It what is read into the bible from what you have been taught.

It is strange that prOBably 99% of Christians believe what they have been taught about prophecy in their church. Very few change their view from what they have been taught. I was in the Brethren for a number of years. They taught the PTR but I never accepted that teaching. We went to a meeting when we were fairly recently married. My wife said "When he said all that, I looked at my bible to find it, and it just isn't there."

Invicta · February 4, 2010

Paul said that Jesus was minister to the circumcision,

He also said that Jesus came to CONFIRM the promises nade unto the fathers.

Dan 9:27 And HE shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: