Can a woman....

[trc123]

.....be a music or choral director in the local church?

[Pastorj]

Sure, why not. Nothing in scripture forbids it.

[Revelation3:20]

.....be a music or choral director in the local church?

I wouldn't be comfortable with it unless it was over a womans choir or children's choir.

[Pastorj]

Just curious why? She is not usurping authority in teaching over anyone simply leading the choir.

[Revelation3:20]

Just curious why? She is not usurping authority in teaching over anyone simply leading the choir.

Because it is a leadership position. I don't feel it is wise to place a woman in a leadership position over men. I guarantee that makes a lot of men uncomfortable and often encourages the woman to behave in an unladylike manner.

[1Timothy115]

.....be a music or choral director in the local church?

Interesting question. What is the definition of director?

director
1. One that supervises, controls, or manages.
2. A member of a group of persons chosen to control or govern the affairs of an institution or corporation.
3. A person who supervises the creative aspects of a dramatic production or film and instructs the actors and crew.
4. The conductor of an orchestra or chorus.

Just in case...
conductor
1. a person who conducts; a leader, guide, director, or manager.
2. an employee on a bus, train, or other public conveyance, who is in charge of the conveyance and its passengers, collects fares or tickets, etc.
3. a person who directs an orchestra or chorus, communicating to the performers by motions of a baton or the hands his or her interpretation of the music.
4. a substance, body, or device that readily conducts heat, electricity, sound, etc.: Copper is a good conductor of electricity.

By definition I have trouble with a woman directing and/or conducting in a worship service of song or music with men.

[Pastorj]

1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Here is the scripture we are discussing.

Notice the context:
Written to a preacher
Dealing with the preaching ministry (Chapter 3 - He makes it clear that men were to be preachers)
They did not have choirs back then
Vs 11 - Let woman learn in silence (Again dealing with teaching)
vs. 12a - Don't let women teach
vs. 12b - Don't let women usurp authority over men

The context of this passage is dealing with the preaching of God's Word.

From Webster's 1828 Dictionary.
Usurp
USURP', v.t. s as z. [L. usurpo.]

To seize and hold in possession by force or without right; as, to usurp a throne; to usurp the prerogatives of the crown; to usurp power. To usurp the right of a patron, is to oust or dispossess him.

Vice sometimes usurps the place of virtue.

Doesn't sound like a Choir director. The individual is given the authority by the pastor. He/she is not doing anything that the pastor doesn't allow.

For those who like the Greek:
G831
??????????
authenteo?
ow-then-teh'-o
From a compound of G846 and ??????? hente?s (obsolete; a worker); to act of oneself, that is, (figuratively) dominate: - usurp authority over.

Notice again that a choir director does not act of oneself. They must follow what the pastor wants.

A woman cannot Preach/Teach, Pastor or be a Deacon. I'd like to see a scriptural basis why she could not be a choir director.

[Revelation3:20]

1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Here is the scripture we are discussing.

Notice the context:
Written to a preacher
Dealing with the preaching ministry (Chapter 3 - He makes it clear that men were to be preachers)
They did not have choirs back then
Vs 11 - Let woman learn in silence (Again dealing with teaching)
vs. 12a - Don't let women teach
vs. 12b - Don't let women usurp authority over men

The context of this passage is dealing with the preaching of God's Word.

From Webster's 1828 Dictionary.
Usurp
USURP', v.t. s as z. [L. usurpo.]

To seize and hold in possession by force or without right; as, to usurp a throne; to usurp the prerogatives of the crown; to usurp power. To usurp the right of a patron, is to oust or dispossess him.

Vice sometimes usurps the place of virtue.

Doesn't sound like a Choir director. The individual is given the authority by the pastor. He/she is not doing anything that the pastor doesn't allow.

For those who like the Greek:
G831
????????
authente?
ow-then-teh'-o
From a compound of G846 and ????? hent?s (obsolete; a worker); to act of oneself, that is, (figuratively) dominate: - usurp authority over.

Notice again that a choir director does not act of oneself. They must follow what the pastor wants.

A woman cannot Preach/Teach, Pastor or be a Deacon. I'd like to see a scriptural basis why she could not be a choir director.

If you want to say that a choir director has no authority because they are under the pastor and stay within what he allows the same argument applies to sunday school teachers.


"Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

A song director is a teaching and a leadership position.

[trc123]

If you want to say that a choir director has no authority because they are under the pastor and stay within what he allows the same argument applies to sunday school teachers.


"Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

A song director is a teaching and a leadership position.

Yes, it probably could apply to Sunday school teachers as well and I don't see any where in the Scriptures that a woman can not teach children; or am I mistaken?

[John81]

This is a very old debate. Do the verses Pastorj quoted refer only to what he put forth or do they apply more broadly; and if more broadly, how broadly...and, do these verses apply beyond the church?

Also, when discussing Sunday school and children, there is the debate of what constitutes a man. Should male children only be taught by males in Sunday school? If some believe women can teach male children in Sunday school but not men, at what age do we declare young males become men? Along these lines also is the question as to whether this applies outside the church, such as in public school and college settings.

As well, some who believe women shouldn't teach males in Sunday school don't have a problem with women leading Bible studies or seminars with males present outside the church...while others, of course, believe this is wrong too.

[Pastorj]

That is the debate. The passage most often quoted though is above and is contextually dealing with the church only. You cannot use this passage to say a woman ought not be a President, which has been done.

[holster]

-edit-
A song director is a teaching and a leadership position.

I'm nOT sure I agree with that. I would be inclined to conclude that the Biblical mandates on "teaching" do nOT include the area of the music. I know of know Scripture that DIRECTLY addresses the teaching of music in the church.

I would also question whether the Bible addresses music concerning jthe issue of "leadership." Leadership in the church would be Pastor, Deacons, SS teachers, etc. In short, those who lead the church in it's direction. I would nOT include the Choir Director as being a "leader."

Obviously, Scripture itself is "read" a little differently by each individual as evidenced by this age old question nOT having a firm answer. I think in practice, if you have a man who is willing to be Choir Director and can do it, that's best. But if God sends you a lady who obviously has a talent to do so, and she is nOT usurping any man in taking the position, then use whom God sends.


As info, I lead the choir in my current church but only because no one else wants the job. My wife plays the piano. Makes it VERY EASY to lead the music program!

I reserve the right to change my mind should God reveal to me His Mind from the Word of God. I'm always willing to change my mind in order to be true to His Word.

[JerryNumbers]

I'm nOT sure I agree with that. I would be inclined to conclude that the Biblical mandates on "teaching" do nOT include the area of the music. I know of know Scripture that DIRECTLY addresses the teaching of music in the church.

I would also question whether the Bible addresses music concerning jthe issue of "leadership." Leadership in the church would be Pastor, Deacons, SS teachers, etc. In short, those who lead the church in it's direction. I would nOT include the Choir Director as being a "leader."

Obviously, Scripture itself is "read" a little differently by each individual as evidenced by this age old question nOT having a firm answer. I think in practice, if you have a man who is willing to be Choir Director and can do it, that's best. But if God sends you a lady who obviously has a talent to do so, and she is nOT usurping any man in taking the position, then use whom God sends.


As info, I lead the choir in my current church but only because no one else wants the job. My wife plays the piano. Makes it VERY EASY to lead the music program!

I reserve the right to change my mind should God reveal to me His Mind from the Word of God. I'm always willing to change my mind in order to be true to His Word.

There be a lOT of small churches who would nOT have anyone to lead the singing if a woman did nOT.

But I agree with Gregg on this.

holster wrOTe:
"think in practice, if you have a man who is willing to be Choir Director and can do it, that's best."

[holster]

There be a lOT of small churches who would nOT have anyone to lead the singing if a woman did nOT.

Yes, and when we had VBS this year it was a woman who drove her own van picking up kids to bring. Out of 34 kids one night she brought in 11 from "cold calling" with her van in an apartment and trailer park. That was the best single event that's happened at this church since I came here last Dec.

[John81]

One issue we face is that for at least several decades now women have mostly done many things in a lOT of churches while the men either sat back or didn't even attend church.

For many, they have never known a time or attended a church where the men actually stood up and filled positions of need in the church. For them, it seems natural and right for women to be filling most of the positions in church.