Repeating a prayer

[Madeline]

I already answered your questions - you just refuse to take those passages at face value, and choose to contradict them by other passages. They all go together. No one is forgiven as a Christian until we confess our sins to God - we must go to Him, and confess those sins to Him BEFORE we are forgiven of them (ie. to restore fellowship with the Lord) and cleansed of those sins - why should the Lord forgive the lost person who doesn't confess his sins and need of the Saviour? I don't find anywhere in Scripture that it says just believe that you ARE saved - I find over and over where it says receive Jesus, receive His gift of salvation, confess to Him, drink of the living water, call upon Him, etc. These are all actions, not just mental processes.

I am not explaining very well what I am trying to say here. I need to finish getting ready for work and head out.

Jerry...why would anyone confess their sins before God if they didn't have faith? So we're not saved by faith alone? These passages irrefutably proves that we are saved by faith alone (Jn. 3:15,16,36; 5:24; 6:35,47; 7:38; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; Rom. 1:16; 3:26; 4:5; 9:33; 10:4,11; Eph. 2:8; 1 Jn. 5:1). Unless you want to argue against Jesus and Paul. Again, since you believe that prayer is essential to ones Salvation, at what point in the prayer is the transaction of salvation completed? at the beginning? the middle? end?

Love,
Madeline

[JerryNumbers]

The word hath is 100% correct, but this is an assurance verse, if one has everlasting life, they have already repented, confessed, and accepted Christ as their Savior.

John 5:24 does not take the confessing out of being saved.

Seems your trying every way you can to say people are saved with out confessing, that is impossible.

But it has been explained to you over and over again, but you keep on saying no, no, and no.

[Madeline]

Neither does it ADD prayer as a prerequisite to obtain salvation. :-S
Apparently justification by faith "alone" means bupkis to you on the verses I cited.
You competely ignored all the verses I cited concerning Salvation by faith Alone? :-S

[Christ-Lifter]

There is a sinners prayer in the Bible, and when I talk to some one about salvation (sometimes up to 3 hours or more!), at the end, I always show it to them, and say:

"This is the heart attitude that God wants from you. If you fully understand the Bad News: That you are a lost, once born sinner, a law-breaker of God's Law in His Word and in your conscience, and you understand that God would be right to put you in his prison Hell, for all eternity, you are ready for the Good News.

If you fully understand that Jesus shed his blood on the Cross for your law-breaking/sins, and died -as you- -the sinner- on the cross, was buried, and rose again, just to save you, and thereby proving He is not a sinner, but God in the flesh, as He claimed to be, through His resurrection, you are ready to be saved.

If you are ready to change your mind (repent) and drop all of your other things you are trusting in to get to Heaven, and drop off your life of sin and selfishness, trusting in Jesus Christ alone to save you, you are ready to be not a born once sinner, but a born-again saint."

I then after having given an extensive presentation of the Law, Sin, Death, Hell, Christ, Calvary, Tomb, Resurrection, Repentance, Faith

AND ONLY AFTER THESE ARE UNDERSTOOD AND NOT ARGUED WITH, AND THEY SAY THEY FEEL NO PRESSURE FROM ME:

Say This:

Here is what God is looking for from you:

Lu 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,

SINNERS PRAYER! "God be merciful to me a sinner."

Here is why:

Lu 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Then I have them say their own words regarding all of this.

When I was saved from being a false, demon possessed, drug addicted "convert" (Charismatic-Prophetic), the Law was not used. However, after a couple of days, I realized that I was lost, and a sinner on the way to Hell, after God cast the demon out of me, and Romans 3:23 was read to me. After that, The Gospel was clearer than ever, and I could then personally apply it, and repent, and personally trust Christ, as it was FOR ME, instead of abstractly to "sinners" or "lost people", using only Romans 10:9-10, 13.

I think the understanding is what is needed, with or without a prayer, because prayer is based on faith, and faith is based on Scripture.

[Madeline]

The way to heaven is very narrow, and it is by faith alone, by coming to Christ and trusting only in His Person and work, directly and without any mediation of human works, like prayer, whatsoever. This is not to say that everyone who has prayed a sinner's prayer is lost; surely many have trusted Christ at some point while praying, and Jesus promises that "he that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn 6:37). Thank God, He is still ready to save, although His human instruments are sinful, use bad methodologies, and are weak and unprofitable, and He can and does work despite their errors. Nevertheless, to tell the lost they must pray to be saved, to tell them that they have a guarantee from God that He will save them if they sincerely pray and ask Him to do so, along with the various other similar promises and methodologies employed today by the vast majority of Bible-believing Christianity, based upon an incorrect understanding of the verses under discussion, is wrong and horribly dangerous. To give someone assurance of salvation with repeated prayers because he has sincerely asked God to save him is misusing what the bible teaches and imparting a false assurance. To do so makes one guilty (thank God for 1 Jn 1:9), unknowingly for the most part, to be sure, but nevertheless guilty, of misdirecting sinners, of pointing them away from Christ crucified, away from simple trust in Him, to the work of man, the filthy rag of prayer for salvation; guilty of confusing the soul-saving gospel. How many have not truly come to Christ because they have been misdirected to prayer? How many jewels in Christ's crown, how many of those who could be the exalted Savior's everlasting worshipers are now in the pit because of this false handling of God's Word? How many have gone to Hell because of such evil, unscriptural presentations door to door soulwinning; how many are lost on bus routes because they have come to prayer instead of to Jesus - how many church members in good standing, and even Sunday school teachers, deacons, Christian school teachers, zealous soulwinners, are lost, having prayed, but never having believed in the Lord Jesus Christ? How many are the multitudes that have a false hope because of a wrong view of prayer and confession? How Satan must love this misinterpretation! And surely there are - may God have mercy on them, and mercy on His people to make such tares few - missionaries, evangelists, and pastors of Independent Baptist churches and other fundamentalist associations that are currently under the wrath of God and apart from Christ because they have not come to Him in faith, because of the subtle Galatianism of making prayer a requirement for salvation! Let God's people turn from this perversion of the glorious true gospel of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, and by His grace, once again preach simply He that BELIEVETH on Him is not condemned, the glorious andsimple gospel of repentant faith in Christ alone, direct and unmediated by baptism, confession, prayer, or anything else! Amen and Amen.

Love,
Madeline

[lettheredeemedsayso]

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Don't you think the key in this verse is the last part. Not so much the repetition but their motive for praying these repetitions. As I read the Word of God I see this over and over. The focus is on the heart!

[sarcrew]

I would agree that believing saves us Madeline. The crux being what does believing mean. If we believe, we will call upon the Lord as repentant sinner's seeking forgiveness. If we don't believe, we won't. This is not a "work for salvation". It is the faith (see note), as a verb - not a noun - that establishes us alive in Christ. Christ will recognize that we believe - have faith as a noun - when we have shown faith - as a verb. How - by repenting. :2cents

NOTE: Function: transitive verb
archaic: believe, trust


Wayne

[Madeline]

The same could be said of baptism...if we believe, then we will get baptised. However, believing that the rite of Baptism will save us will only send us to hell. Wielding the Spirit's Sword correctly, instead of mangling it,will lead, by God's grace, to genuine fruit and new-born souls. Since God does not direct the lost to pray and ask God for salvation, since He has promised it to those who believe and to ask instead is to reject God's way, there is no reason to suppose that someone who is lead to ask Christ to save him is saved. But if he is not ready to believe, getting him to pray will not bring him any nearer to Christ, but will simply plant a false hope in his head. It's faith which leads the person to prayer and it is by faith we are saved. Affirming justification by faith alone apart from prayer also does not mean that conversion is a passive decision or a merely mental assent to the facts of the gospel. Repentance and faith involve the intellect, sentiment, and will.

Love,
Madeline

[sarcrew]

The same could be said of baptism...if we believe, then we will get baptised. However, believing that the rite of Baptism will save us will only send us to hell. Wielding the Spirit's Sword correctly, instead of mangling it,will lead, by God's grace, to genuine fruit and new-born souls. Since God does not direct the lost to pray and ask God for salvation, since He has promised it to those who believe and to ask instead is to reject God's way, there is no reason to suppose that someone who is lead to ask Christ to save him is saved. But if he is not ready to believe, getting him to pray will not bring him any nearer to Christ, but will simply plant a false hope in his head. It's faith which leads the person to prayer and it is by faith we are saved. Affirming justification by faith alone apart from prayer also does not mean that conversion is a passive decision or a merely mental assent to the facts of the gospel. Repentance and faith involve the intellect, sentiment, and will.

Love,
Madeline

The same could not be said for baptism since that is to be done before men not God - hence it is an act for men. Our appeal for forgiveness to be saved is between the beleiver and Our Lord.

Wayne

[Madeline]

The same could not be said for baptism since that is to be done before men not God - hence it is an act for men. Our appeal for forgiveness to be saved is between the beleiver and Our Lord.

Wayne

Faith ALONE. Redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Both: making prayer and baptism a condition for faith and thus salvation? Unbiblical. :smile

Love,
Madeline

[sarcrew]

Hi Madeline, I'll try a different tack.

Do you believe after a person is saved they recieve the Holy Spirit?
If not, stop here.

If yes, then:

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit will enter the body of an unrepentant sinner?
If yes, stop here.

Faith alone - as a verb - being evidenced by repentance.

Wayne

[Fellow Laborer]

Is a lost person supposed to pray for salvation? Will prayer bring salvation, or will salvation bring prayer? "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" were among the first recorded words of our Lord's earthly ministry [Mark 1:15]...that's His message: repent, and believe!

Does the prayer save??? I think there's big problems with some people today because they're trusting in what they've said rather than in the Saviour...Did I say it right...did I ask everything I needed to for salvation...did I really mean it...etc.

If interested, please see an article I wrote on The Sinner's Prayer: http://lbcpastor.wordpress.com/2007/02/28/sinners-prayer/

Lord bless!

[Samer]

Absolutely in agreement with Fellow Laborer. (And welcome to OB!) People are trusting that a prayer saves them... But prayers don't save... Jesus saves!

[Jerry]

I am against rote prayers or the idea that saying some specific formula guarantees salvation when the person is not really trusting in Christ. However, the Bible does teach that salvation involves calling upon the Lord - trace that through the Bible, that is praying. How do you "confess" your sins to God in order for Him to forgive you of them if you don't speak with Him (which is prayer)?

I know many people who profess to believe but there was never a time or place where they actually received Jesus Christ and called upon Him to save them - and from what I can tell, they are still unregenerate. Regardless of the words, I know MANY Christians who have turned to the Lord in prayer and called upon Him to save them - and they are truly changed today.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Is there salvation if the person never calls upon the Lord, but supposedly just believes in Him?

[JerryNumbers]

I am against rote prayers or the idea that saying some specific formula guarantees salvation when the person is not really trusting in Christ. However, the Bible does teach that salvation involves calling upon the Lord - trace that through the Bible, that is praying. How do you "confess" your sins to God in order for Him to forgive you of them if you don't speak with Him (which is prayer)?

I know many people who profess to believe but there was never a time or place where they actually received Jesus Christ and called upon Him to save them - and from what I can tell, they are still unregenerate. Regardless of the words, I know MANY Christians who have turned to the Lord in prayer and called upon Him to save them - and they are truly changed today.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Is there salvation if the person never calls upon the Lord, but supposedly just believes in Him?

Jerry, I've had that discussing with several people, even some RCC members. Seems you hit on the same thing I did, God's chosen way of us commutating with Him is thru prayer. So if we are to have forgiveness, should we just assure that He forgives us, or should we confess our sins to Him by prayer.

I think that we must confess our sins to Him by prayer thru Jesus Christ our mediator, if we don't, we have not done it God's way.

And as for the lost person, it seems to me the only prayer that God is going to hear from Him, is confession that he is a sinner, asking for forgiveness, repentances, them acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:21 (KJV)

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13 (KJV)

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 (KJV)

How do we call on Him, thru prayer, how do we confess our sin, thru prayer.

Of course it has to be of faith for we are save by God's grace thru faith in Jesus Christ, not of self, not of works.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Luke 18:13 (KJV)