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JJJ4given

Repeating a prayer

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Jerry it's really quite simple. Why would anyone decide to pray to God if they didn't have faith? We are saved by faith alone (Jn. 3: 16-18; Acts 15:9,11; Rom. 1:16; Eph. 2:8,9; 1 Jn. 5:10-13). Confessing means speaking out before at least one other. Also, for some contrast straight from the Bible, I refer you to Matthew 7:21-23, which says, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." "Matt. 12:34....for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."


Love,
Madeline

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Reason all you want - but don't "reason" away a passage. From a plain reading of Romans 10:9-10, it quite clearly states that this confession IS PART OF HOW TO BE SAVED. These verses are not dealing with what the saved will do AFTER they get saved, but is explaining HOW to be saved.

If you have a conclusion on a passage that contradicts other Scriptures, then the problem is with your understanding of that passage. ALL Scripture on salvation (or on any specific theme) goes together - it is not one verse/passage versus another - it is both. If your conclusion cannot take in all the passages on that theme, then you have the wrong conclusion and have not rightly divided the Word of truth.

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<

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

But above you will find and example of a man who prayed who had not faith, the Pharisee, maybe this will answer your question.

Your question means nothing with the matter your discussing.

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I suppose it seems strange to many that right after God inspired Paul to write this.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

God went on and inspired Paul to write these words.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:11 (KJV)


Very interesting. I can't say I had looked at it that way before, though I had considered it, I hadn't taken in verse 11 into the picture. It is interesting how he is quoting scriptures from the OT, so I believe referring back to those scriptures he is quoting can give us a more clear understanding of this passage.

I have found that in the scriptures, not every time it mentions the word "salvation" is it dealing with a point in time in which a person believes, but sometimes can deal with the maturing process(2 Timothy 3:15, Philippians 2:12, 2 Cor. 7:10 and many more) and in other times can deal with deliverance from this present world(1 Peter 1:5, Hebrews 6:9, Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 1:14, 2 Timothy 2:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:8 and 9, Romans 13:11 and many more). The word simply means that: deliverance.

I am going to need to study out the OT cross-references Paul used to examine your take on it. So far you have a very strong argument in which the word "salvation" would need to be referring to the growth of that Christian. Such as used in:

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

2 Corinthians 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

The idea being that the meaning for the word salvation in Romans 10:10 as in these other verses is a walk which takes place after believing, and the first step in that walk after you believe is to confess to others what took place. You rightly will not be ashamed.

Anyhow, I can see a strong argument for your take on these verses.

God bless!

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So far you have a very strong argument in which the word "salvation" would need to be referring to the growth of that Christian.


Don't confuse yourself!! Romans 10 (the context of the WHOLE chapter) is dealing with salvation - deliverance from sins - not any kind of deliverance as a believer. Hence, the need for those who bear the Gospel message to those who have never heard.

Salvation means deliverance - the context determines what type of deliverance: ie. whether from sins, from enemies, from trials and afflictions, from sickness, from a guilty conscience, etc. The term salvation has nothing to do with growth and is never used that way in the Scriptures - yes, there are passages where God promises deliverance to those who trust in Him (ie. to those who are mature in the faith, who have grown) - but the passages do not equate the two.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

This verse is dealing with salvation - the Scriptures are able to make us wise enough, even as children, to know how to be saved.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

This is stating to work out our salvation in our day to day lives - it is not dealing with being delivered from anything here, but stating that salvation will change our lives, will be worked out as we walk with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

This isn't dealing with maturity as a believer - it is dealing with trials and afflictions - stating that God comforts believers in their trials so that they in turn can comfort others until they are delivered from that trial.

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I think there's a very dangerous situation with many professing Christians, in that the hope of their salvation lies in their having prayed a prayer. Many people think they're going to Heaven because they prayed a sinner's prayer, and were told that's how to get saved. The answer to the question "What is your hope of Heaven?" is not "I prayed the prayer 10 years ago," but "Jesus Christ paid for my sins, and I believe in Him and trust Him to save me."

I think we ought to be careful in claiming prayer as the necessary to step for the sinner to be made right with God. Madeline says it's a work. Well, perhaps it's hard to tell, but in comparison, baptism is very much a public confession of the Lord Jesus. We know that Acts 2:38 does not mean baptism is itself the cause of salvation, and we often tend to understand the word "for" in that verse as meaning "because of," yet that word "for" and this word "unto" in Romans 10:10 are, in Greek, the same word, eis, meaning "into" or "to." I think we ought to understand Acts 2:38 and Romans 10:10 in similar light.

In what sense is confession "unto" salvation? Did not the first part of the verse say belief is unto righteousness? Isn't righteousness salvation? It almost seems belief and then confessing that belief are two salvations, but verse 8 seems to help. What comes from the heart in verse 10 is the same as is in the mouth in verse 8, which is the word of faith in the mouth, and in the heart. It is the same faith. It through faith that we are saved. Confession is "unto salvation" insomuch as baptism is for the remission of sins: both are done in light of something, and as a witness thereof, but neither is said to be the effacious cause of imputed righteousness--that's the first half of Romans 10:10. If confession is the effacious cause of salvation being understood as imputed righteousness, then the first half of the verse, "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness," loses its meaning.

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16a). Notice the similarity. Of course, in Mark 16:16, we have the last half to explain it, but there is definitely a parallel between Mark 16:16a and Romans 10:10. Note both verses place salvation in the future--"shall be saved"; "unto salvation." We know in Mark 16:16 that he that believeth and is baptized is saved, and, from the whole testimony of Scripture, was saved prior to the baptism (which serves, in part, as a confession of Christ).

Contradiction? Nay... I was saved from the penalty of sin (justification--Titus 3:5); I am being saved from the power of sin (sanctification--Romans 6:22, Philippians 2:12); and I will be saved from the presence of sin (glorification--Romans 5:10, 13:11). Confession and baptism are natural outpourings of a heartfelt faith, which, without works, is dead, being no faith at all. Yet it is not confession or baptism that effects to us instantaneous justification, but rather, the faith that moves us to do so--the faith in our mouth. Will there be confession? Yes there will. In that sense, we can say the soul who does not confess Christ will not be saved, because the soul who is saved will confess Christ. But confession is not the salvation, because many have some outward confession, and have no inward saving faith.

Romans 10:11b: "Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Believeth and confesseth? No, for he who believes will confess. He who believes will also follow in various good works, but the heart-faith is what saves.

Romans 10:13-14a: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?" Belief precedes confession. They're separated in time. The question stands: Is a person saved just after he has believed, but just before he has confessed? Some may call it a non-issue, but replace "confessed" with "been baptized" and you have an argument many of us will use against the baptismal-regeneration heresy. Does faith save? Of course.

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."

What is this, if not a willful decision in the heart to trust Jesus Christ as the salvation of one's soul? Consider again the Ethiopian eunuch, who believed, and was saved. Philip said the condition of baptism was belief, as in, faith.

I think it's important to understand the instant righteousness is imputed to a soul is the instant that soul exercises saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then, God gives the Holy Spirit, and then:

"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father" (Galatians 4:6).

The confession of the saved. Perhaps it could also be said all who by the Spirit cry "Abba, Father" will be saved. But I don't think we ought to isolate any one verse from the whole of Scripture, especially regarding justification and the means thereof.

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Who has ever been saved without consciously turning to the Lord and calling upon Him in prayer?

Were you? Anyone else on these boards?

Everyone I know who was ever saved, there was a time and a place where they turned to the Lord and confessed (to God) their need of Him and receiving Jesus and His free gift of salvation. I truly do not know how you can be saved without acknowledging to God (ie. confessing) that you are a sinner in need of His salvation (not arguing some specific formula or specific words in approaching God - but do believe in turning to the Lord in prayer).

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Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I did a trace of the phrase "call upon" throughout the Bible - it is used 26 times. Please show me by these passages, where the idea that to call upon someone means to just think about them - no, it means to pray.

Genesis 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Deuteronomy 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?

1 Chronicles 16:8 Give thanks unto the LORD, call upon his name, make known his deeds among the people.

Job 27:10 Will he delight himself in the Almighty? will he always call upon God?

Psalms 18:3 I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.

Psalms 50:15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.

Psalms 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.

Psalms 80:18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

Psalms 86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

Psalms 86:7 In the day of my trouble I will call upon thee: for thou wilt answer me.

Psalms 91:15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

Psalms 99:6 Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call upon his name; they called upon the LORD, and he answered them.

Psalms 105:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people.

Psalms 116:2 Because he hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon him as long as I live.

Psalms 116:13 I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD.

Psalms 116:17 I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the LORD.

Psalms 145:18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

Proverbs 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

Isaiah 12:4 And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.

Isaiah 41:25 I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon morter, and as the potter treadeth clay.

Jeremiah 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

Jonah 1:6 So the shipmaster came to him, and said unto him, What meanest thou, O sleeper? arise, call upon thy God, if so be that God will think upon us, that we perish not.

Zephaniah 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

The only ones that could even possibly be taken the way Madeline takes them is the first and the last of all of these passages - and that would give it a usage that is contrary from all these other passages. The best way to determine what a word or phrase means is to see how it is used throughout the Bible.

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Who has ever been saved without consciously turning to the Lord and calling upon Him in prayer?

Were you? Anyone else on these boards?

Everyone I know who was ever saved, there was a time and a place where they turned to the Lord and confessed (to God) their need of Him and receiving Jesus and His free gift of salvation. I truly do not know how you can be saved without acknowledging to God (ie. confessing) that you are a sinner in need of His salvation (not arguing some specific formula or specific words in approaching God - but do believe in turning to the Lord in prayer).


I agree, Jerry. I think the issue is, at what instance is justification imputed--at heart-belief, or after prayer? They're two separate events, and, although often separated by mere seconds, I think it's an interesting question to consider.

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You said:


The term salvation has nothing to do with growth and is never used that way in the Scriptures


And then:


Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

This is stating to work out our salvation in our day to day lives - it is not dealing with being delivered from anything here, but stating that salvation will change our lives, will be worked out as we walk with the Lord.


Anyway, whether or not we agree on which verses have which meaning of deliverance or, as you put it "(salvation) will be worked out as we walk with the Lord", I think we can both agree that it definitely has different meanings in different places.

However, the point of Romans 10 I believe can be best summarized in verse 4:

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Paul is covering a lot of ground to get this point across, and in that he is covering a lot of ground, Jerry80871852 has a very valid argument.

He covers Israel preferring their own righteousness instead of God's

He quotes scripture after scripture to back up what is said in verse four


It is interesting that he is writing all of this to ultimately ask for support for a missions trip to Spain. Not that that has anything to do with what we are dealing with. :lol

Anyhow, I think what a great deal of us are against, and you as well, Jerry, is someone feeding people a line of words to repeat(1-2-3 repeat after me) and then telling them they are O.K. and eternally secure. No one is saying that prayer isn't a necessary thing, but are saying that the prayer itself is not what saves, it is with the heart. This is because God already knows where our heart is at before the prayer is even uttered there. I don't know if it happened on the "I" or the "surrender" or the "all", but somewhere in between there the Lord took a lost athiest and forgave his sins and gave him life eternal. It was not in the words but in my heart's condition.

God bless!

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You say they are separate - Romans 10 puts them BOTH together for salvation. Who is right - you or God?

True saving faith involves calling upon the Lord for salvation. Can someone truly have that saving faith if they didn't do so? Romans 10 indicates quite clearly believing in the heart AND calling upon Him is what saves.

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Jerry,

Romans 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

1. God sends.
2. Man preaches.
3. Sinner hears.
4. Sinner believes.
5. Sinner calls.

Is this not chronological? Belief clearly precedes calling on the name of the Lord. Do you believe justification is an instantaneous action of grace by the Holy Spirit? Which instant?

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True saving faith involves calling upon the Lord for salvation. Can someone truly have that saving faith if they didn't do so?


James 2:14-24... True saving faith involves works. Can someone truly have that saving faith if he doesn't have works?

I guess the question here centers on "confession unto salvation," which I addressed a few posts ago, relating it to "baptism for the remission of sins," with "for" and "unto" being the same Greek word.

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After I logged off, I realized I might have come across stronger than I intended to.

I just think you are making a distinction that the Scriptures do not make:

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, AND shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The Bible puts them both together - the Bible does not do that the same way with Baptism. Baptism is never equated with salvation - this is. In Acts 2:38, the sense of the passage is be baptized because you have been remitted of your sins already - just as you receive a spedding ticket because you have been speeding - you don't get the ticket so you can speed, neither do we get baptized so we can have our sins remitted - but as a testimony that they already are.


I guess the question here centers on "confession unto salvation," which I addressed a few posts ago, relating it to "baptism for the remission of sins," with "for" and "unto" being the same Greek word.


Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Why would Paul use the word "unto" in two totally different ways in the two clauses of the same verse?

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Reason all you want - but don't "reason" away a passage. From a plain reading of Romans 10:9-10, it quite clearly states that this confession IS PART OF HOW TO BE SAVED. These verses are not dealing with what the saved will do AFTER they get saved, but is explaining HOW to be saved.

If you have a conclusion on a passage that contradicts other Scriptures, then the problem is with your understanding of that passage. ALL Scripture on salvation (or on any specific theme) goes together - it is not one verse/passage versus another - it is both. If your conclusion cannot take in all the passages on that theme, then you have the wrong conclusion and have not rightly divided the Word of truth.



<

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

But above you will find and example of a man who prayed who had not faith, the Pharisee, maybe this will answer your question.

Your question means nothing with the matter your discussing.


Wow, nobody's getting it! No one is trying to reason away scripture. I have already provided both of you a contextual and exegetical interpretation of Romans 10:9-13. Apparently you have already come to a conclusion that "salvation involves CONFESSING to God," which it does not state, e.g., it actually says "confess with your mouth." And this is directed by the Apostle Paul to his Jewish brethren, since they continued to refuse to acknowledge Christ as the Messiah. So since you hang all you believe regarding the actual apprehension of eternal (spirit) salvation upon these few verses in Romans, whilst ignoring all of the book of John (where such confession as prayer is NEVER mentioned) and the clear and complete statement by the Apostle Paul in Acts 16:31 regarding the same issue, I suppose I can do nothing more I can say. I can point to 10 times the amount of passages you cite which you "assume" involves prayer for salvation, which states that Salvation is by BELIEVING (Is. 28:16; Lk. 24:27; Jn. 3:16, 18, 36; 5:24; 6:35,40, 47; 11:25, 26; 20:31; Acts 3:24; 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Rom. 1:16; 3:26, 28; 4:16; 9:33; 10:4, 11, 16; Gal. 3:8, 24, 26; Eph. 2:8, 9; Phil. 3:9; etc...). Should these passages be reasoned away too? hmmm......And Jerrynumbers you're not seeing the forest for the trees, both men prayed...one was justified because of his "faith," which is why he prayed. The other wasn't justified for obvious reasons...no faith IN God. Let's use common sense here.

Love,
Madeline

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And Jerrynumbers you're not seeing the forest for the trees, both men prayed...one was justified because of his "faith," which is why he prayed. The other wasn't justified for obvious reasons...no faith IN God. Let's use common sense here.


I think he answered your question pretty well with:


<

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

But above you will find and example of a man who prayed who had not faith, the Pharisee, maybe this will answer your question.



I've also seen other reasons why a person might pray without faith. For instance, a pastor telling them to a repeat a prayer. Which is what this thread is all about =P.


And this is directed by the Apostle Paul to his Jewish brethren, since they continued to refuse to acknowledge Christ as the Messiah. So since you hang all you believe regarding the actual apprehension of eternal (spirit) salvation upon these few verses in Romans, whilst ignoring all of the book of John (where such confession as prayer is NEVER mentioned) and the clear and complete statement by the Apostle Paul in Acts 16:31 regarding the same issue, I suppose I can do nothing more I can say.


Also, Madeline, there is no possible way that these verses could be directed toward Paul's lost "Jewish brethren" who wouldn't acknowledge Christ as the Messiah. He wrote it to the churches in Rome. What for?

Romans 15:24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.

28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

Paul was seeking support from those churches in Rome for a missionary journey to Spain. If he wanted to write something to the lost Jews, he would address it to them. However, that is not the case. Anyhow, that can be for another discussion.

God bless!

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I think he answered your question pretty well with:

.......I've also seen other reasons why a person might pray without faith. For instance, a pastor telling them to a repeat a prayer. Which is what this thread is all about =P.


Again, the point is being missed here. Of course a person can pray "without" faith. The point is that only one man (publican) was "justified,"...however it is not his prayer that justified him, it was his faith and his faith led to his prayer.


Also, Madeline, there is no possible way that these verses could be directed toward Paul's lost "Jewish brethren" who wouldn't acknowledge Christ as the Messiah. He wrote it to the churches in Rome. What for?

Romans 15:24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.

28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

Paul was seeking support from those churches in Rome for a missionary journey to Spain. If he wanted to write something to the lost Jews, he would address it to them. However, that is not the case. Anyhow, that can be for another discussion.

God bless!


I don't see what Paul's wanting to go to Spain has to do with whether or not Rom. 10 is addressed to Jews. You have to understand that whilst it is true that Romans was written during the time when Israel was still God's chosen People, some truths are universal. Let me explain that. Some things are true for only one dispensation. For example, whilst Israel was God's People, the calling of believers was to the Land of Israel on earth for the millennium. But once Israel had been put aside as God's People the calling of believers is to heavenly places. That is an example of a dispensational truth, i.e. one that is true for one dispensation, but not for another. On the other hand, some truths are universal. Salvation by faith is an example of a universal truth. That is to say, Heb. 11, for example speaks of everyone from Abel on who "believed" God's message for them and were thereby saved. So salvation by grace through faith is a universal truth. It is true for all people of every dispensation. Rom. 10:9-13 is about salvation, therefore it is a universal truth and applies to every person of every dispensaiton. Note for example verse 12, "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek; for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon His name". This is a universal truth. But dispensationally speaking there certainly was a difference between Jews and Greeks in the previous dispensation when Romans was written. Consider for example that we read in Rom. 9:4 about Israel that it was to them that "pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenant, and the giving of the law, and the servies of God and the promises". This is an example of a dispensational truth. Rom. 10:9-13 is basically a universal truth even though it does quote from the OT and it was written whilst Israel was still God's People.

Love,
Madeline

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That is an example of a dispensational truth, i.e. one that is true for one dispensation, but not for another.


Don't take this as offensive, because I am not trying to be - just wanted to express a word of caution.

I know what you are trying to say here, but it is a very poor way of explaining things - and could lead to trouble. There is no such thing that is true for this person and not true for that person, true for this time and not true for that time. It would be a whole lot better to state something like this: This promise is for the Old Testament Jew, or this statement promise is for believers of all times, ie. applicable to all.

It is not a matter of true or not true - all of God's Word is truth - but the application is limited in some instances.

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Don't take this as offensive, because I am not trying to be - just wanted to express a word of caution.

I know what you are trying to say here, but it is a very poor way of explaining things - and could lead to trouble. There is no such thing that is true for this person and not true for that person, true for this time and not true for that time. It would be a whole lot better to state something like this: This promise is for the Old Testament Jew, or this statement promise is for believers of all times, ie. applicable to all.

It is not a matter of true or not true - all of God's Word is truth - but the application is limited in some instances.


You suggested a better way to put it is that some truths apply to some but not to others. That's just semantics and I wouldn't argue the point. I will say however, that the Term "universal truth" is not mine originally, it is accepted among many Bible teachers.

Love,
Madeline

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Anyhow, totally detracting off the OP:

Madeline, there is no indication that this is written to Israel and, in fact, since Israel is referred to in the third person every time in the book of Romans, this cannot be directed toward Israelites. It was directed to the Gentiles.

Now let's get back on topic! :lol

God bless!

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Anyhow, totally detracting off the OP:

Madeline, there is no indication that this is written to Israel and, in fact, since Israel is referred to in the third person every time in the book of Romans, this cannot be directed toward Israelites. It was directed to the Gentiles.

Now let's get back on topic! :lol

God bless!


Of course Paul addressed his epistle to the Roman church, but the context of the passage with which you are having difficulty starts with verse one of the chapter (10), in which he then is concerned specifically about the lost condition of "Israel." And the primary reason his Jewish brethren (in the flesh) were lost was because they refused to "confess" ("with the mouth"), i.e., acknowledge, that Jesus was the Messiah. Paul gave the ONLY complete way a person can become a Christian when he was asked specifically how to do so in Acts 16:30, 31. Furthermore, most evangelicals freely admit that the book of John was specifically written for the purpose of informing a lost world how one must be saved (John 20:31). And the most used and famous verse for bringing a person to Christ is John 3:16. In this verse, in fact in the whole of John, there is nothing mentioned or directed regarding that a person must "pray" for his salvation. He or she must only make a decision of faith, i.e., believing God's Word regarding His Son. It is by one's decision of faith that a person is saved (Ephesians 2:8) plus and minus nothing. Salvation may be obtained by "faith alone" in Christ alone!

Love,
Madeline

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And the primary reason his Jewish brethren (in the flesh) were lost was because they refused to "confess" ("with the mouth"), i.e., acknowledge, that Jesus was the Messiah.


Are you referring here to confessing before men or before God? If confessing before men, then you have contradictions with what you are saying - ie. not being saved until they bear witness to others. Confessing to God still involves prayer.


Psalms 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Why do we think we need to "confess our sins" (ie. specifically pray about them) to God to be forgiven AS BELIEVERS, but yet somehow think someone will be saved in the first place without doing that?

Leviticus 5:5 And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:

Leviticus 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;

Numbers 5:7 Then they shall confess their sin which they have done: and he shall recompense his trespass with the principal thereof, and add unto it the fifth part thereof, and give it unto him against whom he hath trespassed.

Joshua 7:19 And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide it not from me.

2 Chronicles 30:22 And Hezekiah spake comfortably unto all the Levites that taught the good knowledge of the LORD: and they did eat throughout the feast seven days, offering peace offerings, and making confession to the LORD God of their fathers.

Ezra 10:1 Now when Ezra had prayed, and when he had confessed, weeping and casting himself down before the house of God, there assembled unto him out of Israel a very great congregation of men and women and children: for the people wept very sore.

Ezra 10:11 Now therefore make confession unto the LORD God of your fathers, and do his pleasure: and separate yourselves from the people of the land, and from the strange wives.

Nehemiah 1:6 Let thine ear now be attentive, and thine eyes open, that thou mayest hear the prayer of thy servant, which I pray before thee now, day and night, for the children of Israel thy servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel, which we have sinned against thee: both I and my father's house have sinned.

Nehemiah 9:2 And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all strangers, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers.

Nehemiah 9:3 And they stood up in their place, and read in the book of the law of the LORD their God one fourth part of the day; and another fourth part they confessed, and worshipped the LORD their God.

Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee. (God speaking to Job - but indicating that confessing was more than just thinking something, but addressing the person the confession was to.)

Daniel 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Matthew 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. (Confession involves addressing someone else - not just thinking about something - in this case, not just thinking Jesus is the Messiah, but stating that to others.)

Mark 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

John 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. (John the Baptist didn't just think about what they were saying, he specifically spoke to them about it.)

John 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue. (ie. Professing their faith to another - not just thinking in their heart Jesus is the Messiah.)

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.

Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. (ie. testify about both.)

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. (Not just agree in their heart, but state it to God Himself.)

Romans 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Timothy 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (ie. confessed to those who were around them, they were witnesses, not just thinking this in their heart.)

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

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All we have is your personal opinion that calling upon the name of the Lord doesn't involve prayer - but as the Scriptures quoted shows, it does. So I am not going to let you explain away several clear verses, when it is just your opinion that it means something else. God says that we had to confess to Him to be saved - no other way around it - except it contradicts with your personal opinions in this matter.

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All we have is your personal opinion that calling upon the name of the Lord doesn't involve prayer - but as the Scriptures quoted shows, it does. So I am not going to let you explain away several clear verses, when it is just your opinion that it means something else. God says that we had to confess to Him to be saved - no other way around it - except it contradicts with your personal opinions in this matter.


Not sure how many times I have to emphasize this, but we are saved by faith alone

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I already answered your questions - you just refuse to take those passages at face value, and choose to contradict them by other passages. They all go together. No one is forgiven as a Christian until we confess our sins to God - we must go to Him, and confess those sins to Him BEFORE we are forgiven of them (ie. to restore fellowship with the Lord) and cleansed of those sins - why should the Lord forgive the lost person who doesn't confess his sins and need of the Saviour? I don't find anywhere in Scripture that it says just believe that you ARE saved - I find over and over where it says receive Jesus, receive His gift of salvation, confess to Him, drink of the living water, call upon Him, etc. These are all actions, not just mental processes.

I am not explaining very well what I am trying to say here. I need to finish getting ready for work and head out.

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