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JJJ4given

Repeating a prayer

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Yeah Jerry, my church let everybody submit up to three tracts for consideration the past few weeks, but they required each tract had a sinner's prayer. I just used the example of "God be merciful to me a sinner" as how sinners ought to approach God, so that worked out, since I didn't want to have a prayer to repeat like most tracts do. :lol:

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Confessing to God - I do not believe it is limited to our speach, though that is the specific application in that passage. Obviously, whether we speak words audibly or silently, God knows what we are saying to Him.

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Confessing to God - I do not believe it is limited to our speach, though that is the specific application in that passage. Obviously, whether we speak words audibly or silently, God knows what we are saying to Him.


Faith is simply not a prayer (which in itself is a "work," i.e., something a person must perform [Ephesians 2:8, 9]). In truth, faith is "placing one's total confidence or trust" in something. In the matter of eternal (spirit) salvation it is placed in a Person, Jesus Christ (who did the "work" in your place whilst on the cross). In reality, the placement of faith is a decision that the person makes within and by his will. For those who believe they were saved by their "prayer" (of faith), you might ask them when was the "instant" that they were saved (for the apprehension of it is in an instant; it is never a process of any length), e.g., "Did their salvation take place before, during, or at the end of their prayer? You'll find that a reasonable person will have to admit that it was the instant they decided to pray (which was their "decision" to trust in Christ), if in fact prayer has "anything" to do with it (which it does not!). Just go back through the Bible and you'll find hundreds of time that salvation is linked only through "faith." There is never a mention of prayer. You'll NEVER find an invitation to pray for salvation, as is so prevalent in churches today. The ONLY time a direct (and complete) answer was given to the question on how must one be saved in the New Testament is in Acts 16:30, 31. Read it, and you will have the answer, given by the apostle Paul. Yet, so many today who have twisted spirit salvation (which Christ predicted would happen as this dispensation continued to its end, to end at the Rapture) run to Romans chapter 10 to try to prove their point. They take the passage completely out of context, which was an appeal by Paul to his Jewish brethren; not to the Gentiles.

Love,
Madeline

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Madeline, opinions are worthless - why not deal with and explain Romans 10:9-10 and 13. Those verses are pretty clear that salvation comes when confession (ie. agreement of their sinful condition and their need for a Saviour) is made to God and by calling upon the name of the Lord.

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Jerry, to "call on the name of the Lord," is the equivalent of placing one's faith in Him. It does not mean to pray to Him. Prayer is a "work," we are not saved by works...we are saved by faith alone.

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Please explain Romans 10:9-10. Whatever your explanation, it has to deal with what the verses state: which is that salvation involves CONFESSING to God - that is prayer. There is no other explanation - that verses pretty clearly states that this confession is what saves (obviously with the corresponding belief in the heart).

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Let's see if I can rephrase it another way:

How can you receive the Saviour, receive His gift of salvation, without talking (ie. praying with Him)? How can you receive His forgiveness without first speaking to Him about it (ie. asking Him to forgive you - in whatever manner is appropriate)?

Salvation isn't thinking, Oh, I'm already saved - it is turning to Him and receiving Him to be saved - that involves prayer (ie. talking to God).

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Well, I will say this. The publican's prayer worked for one man and that was the publican. I don't see anyone else using that prayer in the Bible.

Romans 10:8-11
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Let's bring this back into context, what were they to confess? The word of faith! Not the "words" of faith. It wasn't in a set of words but in acknowledging the truth of the message. Also, take very close note that this person is under conviction("the word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth). Telling someone to repeat a prayer isn't the same word or words that are on the tip of their tongue. Let them come up with the words, because the prayer that is supposed to be from them, from their heart, is what is needed. Not some prayer you manufactured for them to repeat that will only confuse them.

Context is very important.

God bless!

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Let's see if I can rephrase it another way:

How can you receive the Saviour, receive His gift of salvation, without talking (ie. praying with Him)? How can you receive His forgiveness without first speaking to Him about it (ie. asking Him to forgive you - in whatever manner is appropriate)?

Salvation isn't thinking, Oh, I'm already saved - it is turning to Him and receiving Him to be saved - that involves prayer (ie. talking to God).


Pardon me Jerry, but I must mention this: I agree or disagree with you - depending on how you define "prayer" (talking of God) - is it verbally or silent prayer? Don't forget that the mute and deaf cannot talk!

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32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matt 10:32-33 (KJV)

8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Luke 12:8 (KJV)

42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

John 12:42-43 (KJV)

When I read John 12:42-43, I can't help but think of Romans 10:11.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:11 (KJV)

The Bible is right clear, whosoever really believes on Jesus will not be ashamed, that is they will not be quite about Jesus having saved their soul from hell. If a person can't hear nor talk has nothing to do with it, that is a smoke screen that always comes up it seems. Surely we all know that God takes care of such things, lets put our trust in Him on such matters and not go off changing what god teaches up thru the Bible.

The young woman, her beloved has just asked her to marry him and she accepts it, happy is she. After they part company what does this young woman do. She has to go to her mother, her sister, her best friend, or someone to tell that her beloved has proposed marriage to her.

If a person has been truly saved, if there is someone they can seek out and tell this to, they will.

Yes I know, if they happened to be somewhere and they could not get to no one before they died, God would take care of that, but that has nothing to do with what God's instruction says, don't change doctrine.

I also remember when I was saved, I could not wait to tell someone, how did I tell them, of course with my mouth, that is I was not ashamed to confess Jesus as my Savior, neither was I ashamed to speak of Him when I went forward to my pastor.

I'm not going to argue about the confessing with the mouth, its there in the Holy Scripture for everyone, if you want to explain it away go ahead, but that is all your doing, explaining away God's Word.

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I thought of a poem:

A great war once waged on a battlefield,
The word of God a preacher did wield,
Against a great many lost sinners across the field,
The Holy Ghost's conviction abounded that day.

There were so many others who had taken flight,
Their fleeing was due to the Lord's revealing light,
But I decided to give up this ongoing fight,
And lay down my weapons of war.

I laid down my arms, on my knees I fell,
I would no longer serve sin, Satan, or hell,
I gave up my rights, my freedom and will,
I surrendered to him on that day.

I became a prisoner of war on that day,
A servant to my Lord I now follow his way,
Far beyond expectation, his mercy more than I can say,
Thankful I am that he took even me.

A large amount I owed of sin, I regret,
But he said, "Don't worry, I already paid all the debt,
At Calvary I paid it all, so there's nothing to fret,
God laid all your sins upon me."

He now set me up to spread his great news,
I gratefully serve, to him all my dues,
I fight on a side which cannot lose,
Oh sinner repent and believe.



The thing I think the calvinist misses is that God entices everyone. However, he has given us the choice to lay down our defenses and give in, or to flee.

God bless!

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32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matt 10:32-33 (KJV)

8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Luke 12:8 (KJV)

42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

John 12:42-43 (KJV)

When I read John 12:42-43, I can't help but think of Romans 10:11.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:11 (KJV)

The Bible is right clear, whosoever really believes on Jesus will not be ashamed, that is they will not be quite about Jesus having saved their soul from hell. If a person can't hear nor talk has nothing to do with it, that is a smoke screen that always comes up it seems. Surely we all know that God takes care of such things, lets put our trust in Him on such matters and not go off changing what god teaches up thru the Bible.

The young woman, her beloved has just asked her to marry him and she accepts it, happy is she. After they part company what does this young woman do. She has to go to her mother, her sister, her best friend, or someone to tell that her beloved has proposed marriage to her.

If a person has been truly saved, if there is someone they can seek out and tell this to, they will.

Yes I know, if they happened to be somewhere and they could not get to no one before they died, God would take care of that, but that has nothing to do with what God's instruction says, don't change doctrine.

I also remember when I was saved, I could not wait to tell someone, how did I tell them, of course with my mouth, that is I was not ashamed to confess Jesus as my Savior, neither was I ashamed to speak of Him when I went forward to my pastor.

I'm not going to argue about the confessing with the mouth, its there in the Holy Scripture for everyone, if you want to explain it away go ahead, but that is all your doing, explaining away God's Word.





Jhn 5:24 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


This is what will happen after you truly believe.
Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

When the living water springs up in your soul, it is because you have passed form death unto life. It's the livign water that makes you want to confess before men.


"Confessing before men" is NOT what saved you.
Confessing with the mouth is a result of truly believing.But "confessing before men" is something you do....and that is a work.
You confess before men because of what God already did in your heart.

Before someone takes me wrong again....
When the preacher preached from the 23rd psalm on Mother's Day 1985, I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and I screamed out His name even before I could get out of the pew.
I was NOT ashamed, I didn't care who heard it. I was talking to Jesus.
Now, if nobody had been around,and I had been alone, I STILL was saved the split second before I called on God. Had I been a deaf mute...I still would have been saved.

When God really comes into your heart....that living water springs up in there....something is going to spill out. John 5:24, John 3:16

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I'm not going to argue about this, but I did not say confession before men will saved a person so please don't put words in my mouth.

But if the person is truly saved, he or she will confess before men just as the Holy Scripture tells them to.

If he or she will not, them there is a problem.

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If I understand this right, Jerry80871852 has been saying that someone will confess to others what Jesus did after they got saved. That this will be a clear evidence of what took place.

Jerry80871852,

There were some who seemed to be implying that confessing meant saying a certain set of words at the point of salvation, whereby to gain salvation. I think that is where the confusion is coming in.

God bless!

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In Romans 10:9-10, I believe that the confession is in the same sense as that used in 1 John 1:9 - ie. confession to God.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Pardon me Jerry, but I must mention this: I agree or disagree with you - depending on how you define "prayer" (talking of God) - is it verbally or silent prayer? Don't forget that the mute and deaf cannot talk!


Prayer is talking to God - whether audibly or silently.


It wasn't in a set of words but in acknowledging the truth of the message. Also, take very close note that this person is under conviction("the word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth). Telling someone to repeat a prayer isn't the same word or words that are on the tip of their tongue. Let them come up with the words, because the prayer that is supposed to be from them, from their heart, is what is needed.


I agree with you here - it is not some rote prayer - but salvation does involve seeking the Lord in prayer.


There were some who seemed to be implying that confessing meant saying a certain set of words at the point of salvation, whereby to gain salvation. I think that is where the confusion is coming in.


Not a set of words - but confessing to the Lord by prayer is what Romans 10:9-10 is referring to - in the context of stating it is part of what is necessary for being saved: ie. believing in the heart and confessing our sin, etc. to God.

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Madeline, opinions are worthless - why not deal with and explain Romans 10:9-10 and 13. Those verses are pretty clear that salvation comes when confession (ie. agreement of their sinful condition and their need for a Saviour) is made to God and by calling upon the name of the Lord.


Hmmm....to assume that confess with our mouth implies prayer is an opinion don't youthink? The word confess (homologeo) essentially means agreement or assent. And as I stated before I don't think that "call upon" means a prayer. I think it is idiomatic for trust. Of course, we must believe in the One upon whom we trust. Prayer is a work and we are not saved by our works. There are no instances in the bible where salvation was the result of prayer. We are told to confess with our mouth. However one can believe in his heart without saying a prayer and can be saved.

Love,
Madeline

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James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.


What are you trying to say here? What does this have to do with the topic?

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There are no instances in the bible where salvation was the result of prayer.


Luke 18:13-14 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Luke 23:42-43 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


We are told to confess with our mouth.


And quite clearly this is necessary for salvation. How can you confess to God without any prayer?... :puzzled:

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If I understand this right, Jerry80871852 has been saying that someone will confess to others what Jesus did after they got saved. That this will be a clear evidence of what took place.

Jerry80871852,

There were some who seemed to be implying that confessing meant saying a certain set of words at the point of salvation, whereby to gain salvation. I think that is where the confusion is coming in.

God bless!


Aboustely!

I suppose it seems strange to many that right after God inspired Paul to write this.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

God went on and inspired Paul to write these words.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:11 (KJV)

Right, Paul speaks of confession made with the mouth them goes on to say if one is really saved they will not be ashamed, that is ashamed to confess with their mouth that Jesus is their Savior.

Its evidence that one has truly been saved.

By the way, how do you know if someone is saved, 99% of the time its because you have heard words coming from their mouth stating they have accepted Jesus as Savior.

Now if someone came forward in our church service and wanted to be baptized and become a member of our church and they completely refused to make any statement about accepting Jesus as their Savior, I would them ask the church what their will was, my advice would be to refuse them entrance into our church, because of.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:9-11 (KJV)

Obliviously they are not saved and or they are ashamed to confess Jesus as Savior according to the inspired Word of God.

And don't go off on a smoke screen chase trying to change the doctrine of the Bible, I'm speaking about someone who can talk with their mouth.

Please take close notice, in 2 verses right in a row Paul uses these phrases, {Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth"}, Romans 10:10 {"with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."}

It rightly amazes me at the many who try to rewrite the KJV of the Bible, but yet they claim it is the only authority, most definitely God inspired Paul to write this and it is talking about confessing using your voice in many different verses.

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt 10:32-33 (KJV)

8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Luke 12:8-9 (KJV)

46 I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.
Psalms 119:46 (KJV)

12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1 Tim 6:12 (KJV)

What is a good profession before many witnesses? Of course its speaking of one who has often talked about Christ their Savior before men.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1 John 4:15 (KJV)

Yes, I have doubts about the person salvation who will not speak about their salvation, serious doubt, just as I have doubt about those who claim to be saved but yet will not take that 1st step of righteousness and be baptize after claiming salvation, unless there is some type of health issue that prevents a person being baptized.

And please, I did not say no where that confessing before man or baptizing saves a person, but again, there has to be a problem if a person refuses this.

And as a pastor of Jesus' Church I am to guard it against unbelievers entering it, try as best I can that those who enter it are saved. I can't read the heart as Jesus can, the only thing I can go by is what comes out of a person mouth. If they want speak of Jesus being their Savior, want speak of that time when they were saved, them no, our church will not accept them.

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Luke 18:13-14 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Luke 23:42-43 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.



And quite clearly this is necessary for salvation. How can you confess to God without any prayer?... :puzzled:


Jerry...your'e inserting your personal interpretations into the text. Where does it state in Luke 18:13 that prayer is required for Salvation? That verse tells us that the publican realized just how wretched he was in his present sinful condition. I think that some here have it backwards so to speak. Justification by faith comes independently of the works which that justification produces. Opening my mouth in prayer isn't going to save me unless I have genuine faith, and that begins with the heart. Prayer is the result of our faith, which we are justified by. I reiterate, prayer is a work and works are the result of our faith. Hope this helps!

Love,
Madeline

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In this thread, I see two people redirecting the passage, and one person given a different meaning to it. What does it say?

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It quite clearly states above - in those verses quoted - that this confession is part of HOW TO BE saved - it is not stating HERE that a saved person WILL confess, but that this confession is HOW a person gets saved in the first place. THEREFORE, it must be referring to confessing to God (such as 1 John 1:9) is referring to. And let's make the same usage of words here - no one gets their sin forgiven in 1 John 1:9 without praying to God about those sins - the same goes here: there is no salvation without turning to the Lord in prayer. I am not saying "a sinner's prayer" is required - I am saying praying is required.

Again, let's deal with the verses and not redirect them - they are not referring to confessing before men AFTER salvation (though the Bible does address this elsewhere in entirely different contexts), but confessing to God IN ORDER THAT THEY SHALL BE SAVED.

And don't run to another verse to state this can't be referring to praying - let's deal with these specific verses here and what they are saying. THAT is what I am debating, not the rabbit trails or the sideswipes (whether intentional or not) of the passage.

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prayer is a work and works are the result of our faith.


Without going off track here, please give Scripture to show where prayer is stated to be a work. People do the same thing with repentance - they subtly redefine it as a work and then state that it cannot be a part of salvation, because that would be man working for it.

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