Only Begotten (MONOGENES)

[heartstrings]

But He made the earth BEFORE He made light. Are the foundations laid now?.....no light at all is present. The earth is without form and void, and it's pitch dark. The word "sun" is not mentioned but "let there be light"must have been the sun. You cannot have "day" as a "evening and morning" without the sun and 24 hour rotations of the earth. I'm going to say that the sun must have been created in the first day. But it clearly says that when the earth was created before light, it was dark.....no light. The foundations of planet earth are now laid(as some say) in the first day. Where are the "morning stars"?

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.



So, are you now saying that "laying the foundations" was when dry land appeared?
Let's see......

9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13And the evening and the morning were the third day. Ok, you have dry land now at the third day. Are the foundations laid now? Where are the morning stars?



14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Now you have stars.... Were the foundations of the earth laid on the fourth day? Remember, laying a foundation and cornerstone is the first thing you do when you construct a building. Everything else rests on it. You don't build your building, then go back and lay a foundation and cornerstone.

One day when you get up before dawn, go outside and watch what happens. When it's dark, all the stars look the same. As far as we know they are the same. There is no distinction except for variation in brightness. But as the sun comes up, the brightest stars will be the last ones seen before the sun overpowers their light. Not only that, but you would still see many of the stars, after sunrise, if there was no atmosphere.

You cannot have morning stars without first having....stars(no stars till the fourth day), sunrise, an atmosphere, and someone to view them from inside the atmosphere. So God waited until the fourth day to lay the foundations ".....when the morning stars sang together"??

Son's of God are believers, saved by Grace through faith. "Laid the foundations of the earth, set the cornerstone....when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy" could not have been the creation.

[Calvary]

Heart,

I see that you're still insisting that the term "morning star" be taken literally to be a planet that is reflecting light from the sun.

Just for another perspective, have you considered that the term "morning star" is an amorphism?

I mean you don't argue that the "morning star" can only be seen in the morning, with light "while it sings" do you? You are insisting to us that it can't be a being, but a star, but I don't see you insiting that it sing. So I'm still very unconvinced of this hijacked thread. You've brought no Biblical reason to reject that the sons of God mentioned in Job are nothing but created beings, also called angels.

As far why the KJB translators didn't put the word angel there is becuase it didn't say angel, it said "sons of god", in the Hebrew, so they translated it thus.

5 classes of sons of God in the Bible. I have posted these verses so many times I can't really see the point to post them again.

Son of God = sinless in it's creation.

Adam
Israel
Jesus
Believer
Angel

That's Bible. Not reasoning.

One day when you get up before dawn, go outside and watch what happens. When it's dark, all the stars look the same. As far as we know they are the same. There is no distinction except for variation in brightness. But as the sun comes up, the brightest stars will be the last ones seen before the sun overpowers their light. Not only that, but you would still see many of the stars, after sunrise, if there was no atmosphere.

So, I'll stick with comparing scripture with scripture, not trying to reason it out with my own understanding.

God bless,

Calvary

[Kubel]

Are you saying that the KJV translators made a mistake when they forgot to translate the phrase from "sons of God" to "angels?"

I would think that if it was supposed to mean "angels" then they would have just come right and said "angels" instead of using some other phrase to supposed mean angels.

Synonyms are present in every translation I'm aware of because synonyms are present in the original texts. There's more than one name for a lot of things.

I believe the three "sons of God" mentioned in Job are angelic. I think it's fairly clear they can't be man.

As far as the balloon animals and hollywood of angels with man- as I've said before, the idea of the Nephilim is not something new and sci-fi-y. It's not something people saw in a theater and decided to accept as part of their faith. Jews and early Christians all believed in this almost unbelievable interpretation. Only recently, when translations started removing the Nephilim, did this interpretation slowly fade away. Now when someone suggests that angelkind married mankind- they think you are nuts.

Anyway, how did we get from Only Begotten to Nephilim? Oh- Jesus is the Son of God-- I see. :ooops

[Jerry]

Jews and early Christians all believed in this almost unbelievable interpretation.

Why do you make an all-inclusive statement without proof? It's one thing to say SOME believed that - but you have no proof that ALL did - that's just your opinion.

I'm going to say that the sun must have been created in the first day.

Wow, Heartstrings - you want us to accept your "literal" statement about morning stars being a reference to literal stars (that somehow sing) - YET YOU JUST CONTRADICTED A CLEAR BIBLE PASSAGE THAT STATED THE SUN AND STARS WERE NOT CREATED UNTIL DAY FOUR.

Regardless of whether you can reason out the passage or not - most of the sound Bible commentators I have read agree that the laying of the foundation is a reference to day three, and what I quoted previously. Making the statement non-literal is silly, considering how you are arguing about being literal on all other statements on this issue.

As far as angels being called by terms other than "angel", read the NT. Fallen angels are there called unclean spirits, devils.

[heartstrings]

Son of God = sinless in it's creation.

Chapter and verse please? So Christ is a created being? The JW's might agree with you on that one but I don't. And Israel was a sinless creation?

A "son" must be begotten.
A "son of God" must be begotten.
For God so loved the word that He gave His only begotten son....

Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Who is the "firstbegotten"? Why would the Bible say "firstbegotten"? Must be because there's going to be some more "begotten sons". Let's see what the scriptures say....1 John 5:1, 1 John 5:8, Revelation 1:5,

So can an angel be begotten? Shall I post it? Make sure you use the King James.... Hebrews 1:5

You've brought no Biblical reason to reject that the sons of God mentioned in Job are nothing but created beings, also called angels.

Oh really?

Concerning Job 1:7 and Job 2:1
#1 I have shown you by the scriptures that the author of the Book of Job used the word "angels". If "angels" and "sons of God" are the same thing, why not say so? Cuz it ain't the same, brotherman. Job 4:18

#2. I have shown by the scriptures, how that the "sons of God" could "present themselves" "before the Lord" standing on terra firma, not Heaven. Abraham stood "before the Lord". Genesis 18:22, Genesis 19:27, Exodus 6:12 The idea that Satan has access to Heaven which God kicked him out of? Luke 10:18

#3 I have shown by the scriptures how that "and Satan came also among them" is a predicament common to "sons of God" even today. I can show you plenty of scripture on this one.

Conclusion? Sons of God, beleivers, presented themselves before the Lord on earth....it was not "angels and Satan in Heaven". Please show me the scripture with scripture which refutes this?
Also, please show me the scripture with scripture which tells what the "figure of speech", "morning stars", refers to. (anthropomorphism by the way)

There is only ONE "class" of "sons of God" and that is believers...including Adam.
Then there is the "only begotten Son" the "firstbegotten" and that is Christ.

And why would one part of a verse be literal and the other not? If , in fact, that verse is literal, I have no problem whatsoever with believing that "morning stars" could sing.
Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

[heartstrings]

YET YOU JUST CONTRADICTED A CLEAR BIBLE PASSAGE THAT STATED THE SUN AND STARS WERE NOT CREATED UNTIL DAY FOUR.

Show me where I did that.

[Jerry]

I just did! The Bible teaches the sun was created on day four - YET IN YOUR POST YOU STATED THAT THE SUN WAS CREATED ON DAY ONE. That is contradicting God's Word.

[heartstrings]

My we are so quick to accuse others of "contradicting" God's Word. Does the Bible use the word "sun" on day four?

You got day and night, daylight and darkness, evening and morning on day one..... I say again....must be a sun somewhere. It don't say "sun", but do you see the word "sun" mentioned on day three or four either?? Come on man, give me a break.

Show me by the scriptures what "morning stars" means.

[IM4given]

You are doing a fine job of explaining these scriptures heartstrings - even though they ought not to even HAVE to be explained to anyone - the Bible is self-explanatory. :thumb

Now as to Job 38:7, I suppose there are even going to be people who doubt that stars can sing!

Job 38
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

In fact, there is a whole branch of astronomy that does nothing but explore the many ways in which stars "sing" to each other - they emit various levels of radio waves. Since the writers did not know this about stars in those days, the best way they could describe this phenomon was to state that the stars all sing together! How right they were!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_astronomy

[heartstrings]

Thank you sister. Stones can cry out.
Yes I believe stars can sing.

[Jerry]

Does the Bible use the word "sun" on day four?

You got day and night, daylight and darkness, evening and morning on day one..... I say again....must be a sun somewhere. It don't say "sun", but do you see the word "sun" mentioned on day three or four either?? Come on man, give me a break.

Give you a break? Why? You are the only one I know who does not believe this passage is referring to the sun:

Genesis 1:14-19 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

The greater light to rule the day - the sun.
The lesser light to rule the night - the moon.
These are the two lights that divide the day from the night. Other than the sun, moon, and stars, what else is giving light upon the earth? Nothing - so obviously this passage is referring to those three things.

[IM4given]

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

I see no contradictions with what heartstrings has said.

BTW, just because we seem to be in the minority here at OB in our literal belief of scriptures, rest assured that we are not the only ones who believe this way. There are plenty of churches in the hills and hollers of Kentucky that also believe in the literal interpretation of scriptures who also preach and teach this true doctrine!

[Jerry]

No contradiction? God created light on day one, and the sun, moon and stars on day four - therefore there is a contradiction to state that the sun was created on day one, not day four.

If you believe the sun was not created on day four, what does your sanctified imagination think WAS created on that day?

[IM4given]

No contradiction? God created light on day one, and the sun, moon and stars on day four - therefore there is a contradiction to state that the sun was created on day one, not day four.

If you believe the sun was not created on day four, what does your sanctified imagination think WAS created on that day?

He created light, so that was day one.

Don't get mad at me because you don't like what the Bible says, Bro. Jerry. Are you also one of those people who do not believe that "when morning stars sang together" is not about the literal astronomical phenomenon of stars emitting radio waves?

I do not believe that I am the one with the vivid imagination here, sir.

[heartstrings]

No contradiction? God created light on day one, and the sun, moon and stars on day four - therefore there is a contradiction to state that the sun was created on day one, not day four.

If you believe the sun was not created on day four, what does your sanctified imagination think WAS created on that day?

Jerry, have I insulted you, brother? If I have, I apologize.

Even though the word "sun" is neither mentioned on the first day, nor the fourth. I won't argue. I could have been either. You have day and night happening on the first day, maybe God used another lightsource for the morning/night and daylight/dark process until day four when the sun took over the job. Works for me. So the sun was made on day four.

So you say the foundations and were laid on day three, correct?
When were the sun and stars made? Day four, right?
So there were morning stars on day three, before stars were created?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Aren't stars, with the exception of "wandering stars", usually associated with believers? Genesis 22:7, 26:4, 37:9, Exodus 32:13.
And just what is this "cornerstone"? Does planet earth have a literal, physical cornerstone? Isn't the cornerstone Christ? Psalm 118:22, Isaiah 28:16, Ephesians 2:20, 1 Peter 2:6
And the foundations..."whereupon are they fastened?" Did Job know?
Maybe this is where they are fastened? Matthew 7:25, Luke 6:48

Has anyone explained morning stars?

Can angels be "begotten"?