John Piper

[Jerry]

As for "calvinists"' date=' from my experience, it seems that they're the ones who's main focus is a passion [i']for God, whereas us IFB's focus is more a passion against evil. I'm not a calvinist, but I enjoy listening to some calvinist preachers with their passionate focus on God.

Biblically and truly, you can't have one without the other.

What good is zeal if it is wrong? Even the Bible shows us misplaced zeal is a bad thing.

[matie-k]

But I didn't say either side didn't have one or the other, I said their main or primary focus is one or the other. I knew someone would pick at my post over that. :wink

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

Thanks for your response.

I appreciate the time and effort you took to share those quotes with me.

Are there some things there to disagree with? Yes.

Is it heretical? Not from the little bit you've shown me.

Please don't take this as an insinuation that you're not being honest with me, but I'm a big context guy. A sentence or two here and there isn't a lot for me to go on. I'm just the opposite of Bill O'Reilly. He likes short and pithy. I don't.

As long as Piper is holding to orthodoxy, I can't condemn him. So far, while he doesn't appear to choose his words very carefully, I can't find anything in the statements you've shown me to condemn him over.

Like I said,I pretty much figured you had your mind made up about Piper,so I was mainly posting to tell others on the board who may not be familiar with him.I dont think I ever called him a heretic.
I dont want to write a book on the board about Calvanism,so I wasnt going to wtite a 100 page rebutle on the subject.
Study the TULIP for yourself.
Im not saying that reformed christians are going to hell.Im just saying that the tulip is built more on Greek humanism than God's word.I have read a book by D.James Kennedy and he is a Calvanist,I cant rember the title but it was a good book.We just need the facts about what certain people are teaching,then we can use discernment about how to sift through stuff thats not quite right with the Bible. A lot of Pipers writings are pretty much just about calvanism,so I'm not saying he is a lost heretic,I just choose to avoid his literature.

[Jerry]

But I didn't say either side didn't have one or the other' date=' I said their [i']main or primary focus is one or the other. I knew someone would pick at my post over that.

Sorry,. Wasn't picking at your post - just misunderstood what you were saying.

[war_eagle]

Like I said' date='I pretty much figured you had your mind made up about Piper[/quote']

The only think my mind is made up about is that I'm not going to condemn the guy based on hearsay and quotes that I don't know the context of.

He may very well be Satan, himself. All I'm saying is that I haven't heard the bad stuff yet, so I can only go by the good stuff.



Thanks for the vote of confidence.

[Jerry]

Calvinism isn't bad stuff?

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

Ok I was right,you were baiting and I stupidly took the bait.It looks like you are here to defend reformed theology,since you just admitted it.Calvanism is unbiblical,plain and simple,end of story.Im not going to argue with you over the tulip,if any other people on the board wish to discuss it I would be happy to,but just arguing for the sake of arguing brings no edification.

[war_eagle]

Ok I was right' date='you were baiting and I stupidly took the bait.It looks like you are here to defend reformed theology,since you just admitted it.[/quote']

I wouldn't have even been discussing it at all if you hadn't brought it up.

[kevinmiller]

It was all of you who were pushing me to condemn the guy based on rumor and hearsay.

I wasn't! :attention: :wink

[matie-k]

war_eagle - Please don't think we're all like that here. You spoke well.

[anime4christ]

Well, I can say for sure Piper is a Calvinist, and he has said it himself before. That is not a rumor, nor hearsay. The IFB position on Calvinism is that's it's a false teaching. So, from Online Baptist's point of view, is that good or bad? So, naturally, many people here won't be extremely enthusiastic about Piper.

Now, I already said earlier in the thread that I do like some things he says. Some things are very good, but I do not agree with him on everything, Calvinism being one of those things.

Personally, I have nothing against your position at all WE, but there is substance to our claims about Piper teaching some false teachings. I've been to a Piper conference that was held at my church and I've read a few articles by him, so I can say something about his teaching from first-hand experience; it's not all hearsay and rumors.

[heartstrings]

Well' date=' I can say for sure Piper is a Calvinist, and he has said it himself before. That is not a rumor, nor hearsay. The IFB position on Calvinism is that's it's a false teaching. So, from Online Baptist's point of view, is that good or bad? So, naturally, many people here won't be extremely enthusiastic about Piper.

Now, I already said earlier in the thread that I do like some things he says. Some things are very good, but I do not agree with him on everything, Calvinism being one of those things.

Personally, I have nothing against your position at all WE, but there is substance to our claims about Piper teaching some false teachings. I've been to a Piper conference that was held at my church and I've read a few articles by him, so I can say something about his teaching from first-hand experience; it's not all hearsay and rumors.

This guy is no doubt a genius. He's a phd I believe. But he may not even know God.
He is teaching false doctrine about salvation. He denies that Jesus died for everyone.
Here is an excerpt from his writing on "Perseverence of the Saints" :

John Piper on "falling away":

The fact that such a thing is possible is precisely why the ministry of the Word in every local church must contain many admonitions to the church members to persevere in faith and not be entangled in those things which could possibly strangle them and result in their condemnation.

A person who "falls away" was never saved to begin with. How can you "persevere in faith" if you have no faith?
A person who IS saved HAS the victory that "overcometh the world" the Bible says. What is that victory? Faith.
The Bible says the devils beleive and tremble, but they don't have saving faith.
A lost person has no saving faith.
So for a lost person to "persevere in faith" is impossible.
It sounds like he's teaching WORKS to me.

[anime4christ]

OK, now I'm confused. How could he believe in Calvinism and works salvation at the same time? Don't they totaly contradict?

[proverbs356]

I take the fundamentals of the faith very serious. I have never understood how a christian man could follow another man to the point of naming himself after him. I believe God's word and He is my final authority. I believe that we need to set our affections on things above and not conform to this world. But renew our minds in Christs teaching daily. I have seen and heard more IFB individuals devour one another :pillowfight: than unbelievers. That is to our shame. If a brother errs from the truth we are to go to him for the sole purpose of restoration not condemnation.

I have learned this the hard way. I grew up in an unsaved home and lived a worldly life. And when I got saved I conformed to my churches standards. Which is ok if they are encouraging godliness. But just because a woman puts on a dress and a smile and then tears down her house doesn't mean that she is more godly than a woman that wears pants but is meek and submissive to her husband. Just the same for a man. I have met many well groomed IFB men in suits that unlovingly treated their wife but was quick to judge another christian man for having a beard and wearing casual attire and cowboy boots that absolutely cherished his wife and family. There is a fine balance in this life. We are not to conform to the world and we are also to put on Godliness. I guess the example I can think of that relates to this is when the widow gives all that she has because she truly loves God and the others give to receive mans praise.



:back: So my question is: do you believe that John Piper is a false teacher because he preaches the joy of the Lord?

Would that also make SPURGEON and others false preachers because they believed in the same joy or happiness?

Here is another quote from Piper

Christian Hedonism
Forgive the Label, But Don't Miss the Truth
By John Piper January 1, 1995
If you must, forgive me for the label. But don't miss the truth because you don't like my tag. My shortest summary of it is: God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. Or: The chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying him forever. Does Christian Hedonism1 make a god out of pleasure? No. It says that we all make a god out of what we take most pleasure in. My life is devoted to helping people make God their God, by wakening in them the greatest pleasures in him.

[proverbs356]

This is off Desiring Gods website:

What Is Christian Hedonism?
My shortest summary of Christian Hedonism is: God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him.

We all make a god out of what we take the most pleasure in. Christian Hedonists want to make God their God by seeking after the greatest pleasure?pleasure in him.

By Christian Hedonism, we do not mean that our happiness is the highest good. We mean that pursuing the highest good will always result in our greatest happiness in the end. We should pursue this happiness, and pursue it with all our might. The desire to be happy is a proper motive for every good deed, and if you abandon the pursuit of your own joy you cannot love man or please God.

The Difference Between Worldly and Christian Hedonism
Some people are inclined to believe that Christians are supposed to seek God?s will as opposed to pursuing their own pleasure. But what makes Biblical morality different than worldly hedonism is not that Biblical morality is disinterested and duty-driven, but that it is interested in vastly greater and purer things. Christian Hedonism is Biblical morality because it recognizes that obeying God is the only route to final and lasting happiness. Here are some examples of this from the Bible:

Luke 6:35 says, "Love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great." It is clear when Jesus says ?expect nothing in return? that we should not be motivated by worldly aggrandizement, but we are given strength to suffer loss by the promise of a future reward.

Again, in Luke 14:12-14: "When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor . . . and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just." That is, don't do good deeds for worldly advantage; rather, do them for spiritual, heavenly benefits.

Should Duty Be Our Main Motivation?
But some will say, "No, no. These texts only describe what reward will result if you act disinterestedly. They do not teach us to actually seek the reward."

Two answers to this objection:

1) It would be foolish to say, "If you take this pill, I?ll give you a nickel," if you expect the desire for the nickel to ruin the pill. But Jesus was not foolish. He would not offer blessing to those who obey him and then hold it against us if these blessings motivated our obedience.

2) Even more importantly, there are texts that not only commend that we do good in the hope of future blessing, but command it.

Luke 12:33 says, "Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide yourselves with purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail." The connection here between alms and having eternal treasure in heaven is not a chance result?it is the explicit purpose: "Make it your aim to have treasure in heaven, and the way to do this is to sell your possessions and give alms."

And again, Luke 16:9 says, "Make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous mammon, so that when it fails they may receive you into eternal habitations." Luke does not say that the result of using possessions properly is to receive eternal habitations. He says, "Make it your aim to secure an eternal habitation by the way you use your possessions."

Therefore, a resounding NO to the belief that morality should be inspired more by duty than delight.

Don?t Be Too Easily Satisfied
Hebrews 11:6 teaches, "Without faith it is impossible to please [God]. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.? You cannot please God if you do not come to him looking for reward. Therefore, faith that pleases God is the hedonistic pursuit of God.

As Christian Hedonists we know that everyone longs for happiness. And we will never tell them to deny or repress that desire. It is never a problem to want to be satisfied. The problem is being satisfied too easily. We believe that everyone who longs for satisfaction should no longer seek it from money or power or lust, but should come glut their soul-hunger on the grace of God. We will bend all our effort, by the Holy Spirit, to persuade people

that they can be happier in giving than receiving (Acts 20:35);
that they should count everything as loss for the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus their Lord (Philippians 3:8);
that the aim of all of Jesus' commandments is that their joy be full (John 15:11);
that if they delight themselves in the Lord he will give them the desire of their heart (Psalm 37:4);
that there is great gain in godliness with contentment (1 Timothy 6:6);
and that the joy of the Lord is their strength (Nehemiah 8:10).
We will not try to motivate anyone with appeals to mere duty. We will tell them that in God?s presence is full and lasting joy (Psalm 16:11).and our only duty is to come to him, seeking this pleasure.

(Adapted from John Piper?s article, Christian Hedonism: Forgive the Label, but Don't Miss the Truth.)

Maybe I am missing the mark, so please point out the error in his teaching. Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.