Are Denominations/Affiliations a Good Thing?

[rancher824]

It just doesn't get much clearer than that. There is one body. That's it, not many, not several, not even a few, ONE body. There is ONE Faith. There isn't the faith of the Baptists, the faith of the Presbyterians, the faith of the charismatics, etc. There is only one Faith, the Faith of Jesus Christ. One Baptism even reinforces that by saying that we are all baptized of one baptism, that of the Holy Ghost.

Here is the way I see that statement. You have a basket. It is full. Inside you have apples, rocks, and gourds. Now I can hand you the basket and tell you I want to sell you a basket of fruit. I can claim that the rocks and gourds are fruit, just like the apple. Does that make it true?? No. The same with these other faiths. Yes, the is only one faith. Can one thing look completely different than itself?? One says baptism after salvation, another baptism of infants. They are not the same. One says miracles, speaking in tongues, and writing new books of the Bible as possible today, another says they have ended. They are not the same. You want to make us all the same and yet we are not nor can we be. Solomon brought great problems on Israel by letting the false god's of his wives come in. We dare not let the false god's of christianity so called in, or we will oay the price.

[Anon]

Kevin, for so long you have posted with us and agreed with us and we have banded together against heresy many times.

Why, suddenly, are you accusing many regulars who know their Bibles of being wrong? Just because you read a book by some man about how he thinks church should be done, you now think none of us know what we are talking about?

There's been some good posting in this thread and you insist all of us are wrong and you are right. Now that very well could be...but on the other hand, some people here have studied their Bible for quite a long time, and I wouldn't be so quick to discount their postings.

[kevinmiller]

I figured you would say that. I almost included a rebuttal before you said anything. :saint

"Acts 9:17-18 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized."

This happened some time after Paul met the Lord, so either Jesus sent him on his way unconverted, or salvation is different than the baptism of the the Holy Spirit.

So you take one passage and say that we aren't baptized with the Holy Spirit at salvation? You are grasping at straws here. This is similar to the question I had on the verse that I posted in Biblical Issues that nobody except you even touched, for some reason. The Bible says that when we are saved, we are baptized into the Holy Spirit. Using one verse in Acts isn't going to make that go away.

"Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which, is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:"

Are you serious? This is what you use? lol Paul was recommending her or introducing her to the church at Rome so that they would receive her and take care of her needs. It has nothing to do with joining the church. Joining the church, outside of by salvation, does not exist in the New Testament.

Of course your entitled to believe that, I understand you don't see it that way, but even so it is the truth of scripture. Many people have given you a word of warning in this area, and of course you can reject it if you choose, and I won't argue with you more at this point as it will only cause you to become more entrenched into your mistaken position. Deep set errors often take time to get rid of. So I will just ask you to pray about it over time and don't let what you "want" influnce what you accept as truth. And a final verse for you, and one that would do us all good to meditate on:

"Proverbs 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."


Don't be stiffnecked. :Green

In my opinion, stiffnecked does not apply to me and your position is probably more deeply entrenched then my own as you have probably believed it longer. Are you refusing to argue because you cannot? I don't argue for the sake of arguing but you aren't going to sway me from the clear teachings of Scripture if you aren't going to use the Bible to back up what you believe. You have only just responded to the verses that I have posted with very weak intellectual arguments. Do you expect tradition to sway my belief in the Bible? It has nothing to do with what I "want," it has to do with what the Bible teaches. I never wanted either belief, I simply studied from having no point of view on it and believed what the Bible had to say about it. It's a shame that you have fallen into judging people's motives when they don't agree with you rather than responding to them in love.

Kevin, for so long you have posted with us and agreed with us and we have banded together against heresy many times.

Why, suddenly, are you accusing many regulars who know their Bibles of being wrong? Just because you read a book by some man about how he thinks church should be done, you now think none of us know what we are talking about?

There's been some good posting in this thread and you insist all of us are wrong and you are right. Now that very well could be...but on the other hand, some people here have studied their Bible for quite a long time, and I wouldn't be so quick to discount their postings.

I don't think there is anything more that we disagree with now than before, Suzy. We just have a distinct difference of opinion on what the church is. I'm not just accusing them of being wrong, I'm just using the Bible to argue a point, whereas they are not using the Bible in response. It has nothing to do with reading a book. The book reinforced what I believe about how the church should function, therefore it's more applicable to the other thread, not this one. It doesn't have to do with the Universal vs. Local church argument.

A while back, I decided to do a study on the church. I had no previous view on it. I believed that we are all a part of the body of Christ, but I had no views on local vs. the universal church. And I had always fellowshipped with non-Baptists so that hasn't changed either. What has changed, however, is that I studied for myself the teachings of the Bible concerning the church. I came unmistakably to the conclusions that I have. I have a friend who also did a personal study a few years ago on it and he came to the exact same conclusion. Why is that? I believe it's because we studied what the Bible says without previous personal bias based on what we've been taught.

I understand that some here have studied for a long time, though Seth has been the only one making any debate of any kind, and I don't think he is much older than me, but I could be wrong. The problem isn't the length of their study, the problem is that they are using preconceived ideas about the church and trying to force them to conform with Scripture rather than the other way around. The Scripture I posted was responded to with weak intellectual arguments rather than explaining what the clear passage meant and posting Scripture to back up the local church position. You can't make a good argument when you are debating on the basis that you are already right. That makes it extremely subjective and any good researcher would throw it out if you were to use such confirmation bias.

I'm sorry, but you can't expect me to accept a non-Biblical position. I really have no idea how you can believe in local-church doctrine, it does not exist in Scripture.

Interestingly enough, no one has been able to answer this verse:
Ephesians 4:4-5
There is ONE body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE hope of your calling;
ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism.

There IS one body. The Bible said it, I believe it.

[Anon]

The problem with the universal church theory is that it weakens the local church. People become drifters, going to this church or that church. They give their tithe wherever they see fit, here or there, or just send it to missionaries, who really cares.... they do not respect the pastor because they do not see the local church as important. This is all the result of the universal church theory.

The New Testament is clear that local churches were established and led by ordained elders/pastors.

You, also have used Scripture to fit your beliefs. For instance there are many many portions of Scripture that seem to VERY clearly teach a doctrine of losing your salvation. You have to REALLY study context and customs and the background of each book before you assume one can lose your salvation. Even today some passages throw me for a loop, like "Uh oh are we really eternally secure?" My point is, some of the church passages are also difficult to study out, you have to study context and customs and background as well.

One reason I have not debated extremely hotly is because frankly I do not have time to study this out completely. I am telling you what others have studied out, including my husband...but I am not able to do a full debate on this subject. On the other hand, I'm not just going to convert to your view just because I have four kids and don't have time to sit down for a couple hours and hash it out right now.

There is, indeed, a universal group of believers that will be united at the rapture. However the local church is VERY important in Scripture and it should be very important to us today. Also, it is not unbiblical to have children's Sunday School, and as much as you want to say it is, you have no backing for it.

For instance the Bible says parents train your children...so you are saying that means a Sunday School teacher is not allowed to do it. That is like saying a woman is supposed to be a keeper at home, so she's not allowed to go to the grocery store, because that's not "home"! That's taking Scripture TOO literally. You have to be careful. I don't have a problem with the way you like church, but I have a problem when you start saying bus routes and Sunday School classes are "unscriptural" because its simply not true.

[Jerry]

Joining the church, outside of by salvation, does not exist in the New Testament.

You are wrong again:

Acts 2:40-41 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 2:46-47 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

First the believers were saved, then baptized, then added to the church. You can debate HOW they were added to the church - but unless you disregard this passage of Scripture, you can't say that adding them to the church was not separate from salvation.

For the record, I do believe 1 Corinthians 12:13 is referring to the Holy Spirit baptizing us into the body of Christ (it does not say church here) at salvation (but that is an ENTIRELY different issue than joining a church). The NT does not use the terms body and church interchangeably. All believers are part of the body of Christ, but there will be no universal - or one - church until the rapture.

[rancher824]

It is the job of the local church to keep her rolls clean. 1 Corinthians 5:4-5

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Now what all do we see here?? We find gathered together. The church was to take care of bussiness the next time the met!! How many times do you find the universal church meeting to take care of bussiness??? It has never happened. So you have a local body meeting to take care of it. What were they to take care of?? Delivering a sinful member unto Satan. Now I am sure you will come back with he was lost. First off, prove it. Second, whether or not he was saved, what were they to do. If there is no "church roll" because all the saved are members and all the lost are not, what were they to do. They could not exclude him from there membership. Were they to litteraly deliver him to Satan, by killing him? NO. They were to put him out of the church, local New Testament church, with hopes he would see his sins and return again!! If the church was universal, we would all be saying "you are lost" everytime we disagreed to the point of feeling we cannot fellowship. There are going to be people saved yet so as by fire that I cannot fellowship with because of the sins they are living in. So they cannot be a member of the same church that I am a member of.

[kevinmiller]

The problem with the universal church theory is that it weakens the local church. People become drifters, going to this church or that church. They give their tithe wherever they see fit, here or there, or just send it to missionaries, who really cares.... they do not respect the pastor because they do not see the local church as important. This is all the result of the universal church theory.

First, the Bible doesn't say that we owe our allegiance to a specific local body. Second, unfaithfulness and carelessness about such things is not the result of the universal church belief. Sure, they can use it as an excuse, just like local doctrine people use it as an excuse to be exclusive. It doesn't mean that that is what happens when you believe something. I believe the Bible, if people want to use it to their own benefit, that's their problem.

You, also have used Scripture to fit your beliefs.

That's almost impossible since I had no beliefs to reinforce when I began studying it.

Btw, I never denied the existence of the local church.

I'm not going to respond to the SS issue since we aren't supposed to pull other threads into a discussion.

Acts 2:40-41 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 2:46-47 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

First the believers were saved, then baptized, then added to the church. You can debate HOW they were added to the church - but unless you disregard this passage of Scripture, you can't say that adding them to the church was separate from salvation.

The believers were added to the church upon salvation. There was no membership roll, they became part of the church when they were saved. That's how the Bible can say that God added to the church such as should be saved.

For the record, I do believe 1 Corinthians 12:13 is referring to the Holy Spirit baptizing us into the body of Christ (it does not say church here) at salvation (but that is an ENTIRELY different issue than joining a church). The NT does not use the terms body and church interchangeably. All believers are part of the body of Christ, but there will be no universal - or one - church until the rapture.

The body IS the church, though. It's just a different way of saying it. The Bible says that there is one faith and one Body. Paul talks about the body in the same way and in the same context of the church.

Now what all do we see here?? We find gathered together. The church was to take care of bussiness the next time the met!! How many times do you find the universal church meeting to take care of bussiness??? It has never happened. So you have a local body meeting to take care of it. What were they to take care of?? Delivering a sinful member unto Satan. Now I am sure you will come back with he was lost. First off, prove it. Second, whether or not he was saved, what were they to do. If there is no "church roll" because all the saved are members and all the lost are not, what were they to do. They could not exclude him from there membership. Were they to litteraly deliver him to Satan, by killing him? NO. They were to put him out of the church, local New Testament church, with hopes he would see his sins and return again!! If the church was universal, we would all be saying "you are lost" everytime we disagreed to the point of feeling we cannot fellowship. There are going to be people saved yet so as by fire that I cannot fellowship with because of the sins they are living in. So they cannot be a member of the same church that I am a member of.

You also have a subjective bias in that you are approaching the subject under the assumption that church membership is Biblical. If you read that passage in the light of what the rest of Scripture says concerning the church, then you will see that there was no membership, just a gathering of believers. Therefore, they could choose not to allow someone to fellowship with them who was a fornicator without "scratching his name off the list." It's really quite easy. They didn't have a church building back then, they just met in people's homes, etc. Therefore, it would have been quite easy to cut off fellowship with an unrepentant believer. The Bible never speaks of a church membership, you are trying to pull that out of something by an implied relationship, one that isn't there.

[Anon]

So, explain Matthew 15 in the light of church discipline. Particularly, the final step.

[Psalms18_28]

I know too many churches who gone liberal and is even confused about gay marriages when God intended marriages to be for one woman and one man.

If you did go to a one body church, what will happen if you spoke against gay marriages?

[Jerry]

The believers were added to the church upon salvation. There was no membership roll, they became part of the church when they were saved. That's how the Bible can say that God added to the church such as should be saved.

Wow, there you go - even after showing you a clear passage of Scripture, you still deny it!! Acts 2 shows that people got saved, THEN were baptized, THEN were added to the church - two separate verses in that chapter show this. Therefore there is no Biblical way you can equate salvation with joining the church - it comes after. Show me an unbaptized member of a church in the NT. Many, many times Paul uses the fact of their baptism (not spiritual baptism, but water baptism) as an illustration of being crucified with Christ, dying, and being raised to newness of life. Wouldn't make any sense to these believers if they weren't baptized first.

The body IS the church, though. It's just a different way of saying it. The Bible says that there is one faith and one Body. Paul talks about the body in the same way and in the same context of the church.

In light of eternity, they are the same group. In the NT, these terms are not interchangeable. God does not refer to all the believers in the world as His church - but as His body. You get your universal church idea, because you are mixing the two up. When Paul or others wanted to address Christ's body worldwide, he said "churches," not "church."

If your view was correct, then all of these passages should say "church," not "churches." Hm, why does Paul make that distinction? Maybe your theory is wrong.

Acts 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Why didn't Paul say "the church has rest"?

Acts 16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Why not say the church was established?

Romans 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

Romans 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

1 Corinthians 7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

1 Corinthians 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Why not say, as in all the church?

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

1 Corinthians 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

2 Corinthians 8:1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;

2 Corinthians 8:18 And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches;

2 Corinthians 8:19 And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

2 Corinthians 8:23 Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.

2 Corinthians 8:24 Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.

2 Corinthians 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.

2 Corinthians 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

Why not say, the care of the church?

2 Corinthians 12:13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

Galatians 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Galatians 1:22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Why not say, to the church in Asia?

Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


Why not say, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the church?

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Why didn't Jesus say, to testify unto you these things in the church?

Perhaps you are simply wrong here.

[kevinmiller]

Matthew 15? I'm confused, what are you talking about?

Just to post some additional verses that I found in my Bible reading a few minutes ago.
Jerry, you denied that the church and the body was the same thing. I said that it wasn't because of the way it is used and in context. This verse makes it undeniably so:
Ephesians 1:22-23
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

Also, a verse that uses the word "church" to describe Christians, in general.
1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

[JerryNumbers]

1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Acts 13:1 (KJV)

The Church at Antioch. A complete church.

23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Acts 14:23 (KJV)

Ever church, which mean more than one which your trying to proclaim which is the teaching of the RCC and their false teachers.

17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

Acts 20:17 (KJV)

Of course its referring to the church at Ephesus. A complete church.

1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Romans 16:1 (KJV)

The church which is at Cenchrea: A complete churches.


5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house.

Romans 16:5 (KJV)

The church that is in their house. A complete church.

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1 Cor 1:2 (KJV)

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth. A complete church.

17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

1 Cor 4:17 (KJV)

As I teach every where in every church. More than one church.

19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

1 Cor 16:19 (KJV)

With the church that is in their house.

15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

Col 4:15-16 (KJV)

1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thess 1:1 (KJV)

Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians.

13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

1 Peter 5:13 (KJV)

The church that is at Babylon.

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Rev 2:8 (KJV)

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna .

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

Rev 2:12 (KJV)

The church in Pergamos.

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Rev 2:18 (KJV)

The church in Thyatira.

1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Rev 3:1 (KJV)

The church in Sardis.

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Rev 3:7 (KJV)

The church in Philadelphia.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Rev 3:14 (KJV)

The church of the Laodiceans.

31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Acts 9:31 (KJV)

The churches.

41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

Acts 15:41 (KJV)

The churches.

5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Acts 16:5 (KJV)

And so were the churches established .

37 For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess.

Acts 19:37 (KJV)

Robbers of the churches.

4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

Romans 16:4 (KJV)

All of the churches.

16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

Romans 16:16 (KJV)

The churches of Christ.

17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

1 Cor 7:17 (KJV)

Ordain in all the churches.

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

1 Cor 11:16 (KJV)

Neither the churches.

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

34 Let your women keep silence in the churchs: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Cor 14:33-34 (KJV)

Churches not church.

1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

1 Cor 16:1 (KJV)

the churches of Galatia, not the church.

19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

1 Cor 16:19 (KJV)

The churches of Asian, not the church.

1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;

2 Cor 8:1 (KJV)

the churches of Macedonia, not the church.

18 And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches;

19 And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

2 Cor 8:18-19 (KJV)

Churches, not church.

23 Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.

2 Cor 8:23 (KJV)

Churches, not church.

24 Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.

2 Cor 8:24 (KJV)

The churches, not church.

8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.

2 Cor 11:8 (KJV)

Other churches.

No Kelvin, you do not look at simple facts within the Bible, you ignore them to preach you own beliefs which are worthless if they do not line up with the Bible.

If there was just one church, God would never have inspires Holy men to write churches to confuse us. No, the word churches is use way to many times, plus the word church referring to a church in a certain place is used to many times referring to a complete church.

Please go back to your Bible, plus listen to wisdom, many here have handed it to you.

Your showing you don't care what the Bible teaches, only what Kelvin believes.

[kevinmiller]

Since both Jerry's stated basically the same thing, I will respond to both in one post. I'm not going to respond to the particulars in Jerry808's post at all since he can't discuss something with someone without talking down to them and making hateful remarks.

Sorry if I make you feel like your efforts were in vain but, if you recall, I never denied the existence of the local church. There is the local church, which is a part of the universal church, that's what I said from the very beginning. It's the only view that can be reconciled with Scripture. There can be churches. There is the church at Antioch, the church at Ephesus, the church at Laodicea, all these churches are a part of one Church, the Church and body of Christ(which are one and the same according to Paul). So, if you read Ephesians where Paul states that they are the same, you must apply that understanding to the verses later on that says that we are a part of one body, the body of Christ. The Church has multiple divisions, I think that's obvious enough. These are the churches, the local gathering of the Church. It's in the Bible, and it's my only source for sound doctrine. :smile

[Anon]

Matthew 18:15

[Anon]

Since both Jerry's stated basically the same thing, I will respond to both in one post. I'm not going to respond to the particulars in Jerry808's post at all since he can't discuss something with someone without talking down to them and making hateful remarks.

Sorry if I make you feel like your efforts were in vain but, if you recall, I never denied the existence of the local church. There is the local church, which is a part of the universal church, that's what I said from the very beginning. It's the only view that can be reconciled with Scripture. There can be churches. There is the church at Antioch, the church at Ephesus, the church at Laodicea, all these churches are a part of one Church, the Church and body of Christ(which are one and the same according to Paul). So, if you read Ephesians where Paul states that they are the same, you must apply that understanding to the verses later on that says that we are a part of one body, the body of Christ. The Church has multiple divisions, I think that's obvious enough. These are the churches, the local gathering of the Church. It's in the Bible, and it's my only source for sound doctrine. :smile

Right but if you start going universal church, then you start accepting people who may be technically saved, but are way off on doctrine, and you are saying we are all in the same "church" which is completely unscriptural.