Why there is confusion on “End Times” among Baptist.

[Jerry]

Daniel 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The context shows it is seventy weeks of years - that is 70 times 7 years. 490 years. The last seven have not occured yet. That is what the book of Revelation is all about - the seven year peace treaty the Antichrist makes with Israel that he breaks halfway through. The second half of the Tribulation period, which Jesus calls "great tribulation" (or the great tribulation) is the last 3 1/2 years, where the Antichrist is killing believers and seeking to wipe out the Jews. It starts with him desecrating the temple with a statue of himself, and eventually leads to Armageddon. Seven places in Daniel and Revelation refer to the last 3 1/3 years. (See Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14; 13:5. Also, there are two references to the length of Elijah's miracle of stopping and then restarting the rain again - which was 3 1/2 years - see James 5:17 and Luke 4:25, and the ministry of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 is compared to that - I also believe one of the two is Elijah.)**

**Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (3 1/2 years)

Revelation 11:5-6 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. (The same miracles as Moses and Elijah, and the same length of time for their endtime ministry, one of which is to stop the rain for the days of their ministry - 3 1/2 years.)

Matthew 24:15-21 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Here Jesus refers to the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist defiling the temple at the midpoint of the seven years. This has not happened yet - and the book of Revelation was not written until the end of the first century; therefore nothing the church has gone through until then equates to it.

[John Young]

On 10/1/2023 at 3:55 PM, Joe Chandler said:

Systematic theology has a doctrine, build on certain principles that lead a man to interpret the bible according to those principles.

I agree to a point. Yet many fail to realize how much the principles of biblical stewardship actually play into their practical ministry. Its principles are the foundation of any successful endeavor. While Systematic theologies such as covenant, dispensationalism, Calvinism, etc. re primarily of the mind and much of the systems are theoretical in the sense they cannot be tested or are simply constructs to help convey a perspective of study, the principles of stewardship are tested and tried every day in practical ministry and everyday life. Such are the principles conveyed in the Book of proverbs, parables and throughout scripture itself. Practical theology is often neglected as it is not noval or overly exciting or debatable in theological circles. Its just there working.

[Joe Chandler]

On 10/14/2023 at 6:37 PM, John Young said:

I agree to a point. Yet many fail to realize how much the principles of biblical stewardship actually play into their practical ministry. Its principles are the foundation of any successful endeavor. While Systematic theologies such as covenant, dispensationalism, Calvinism, etc. re primarily of the mind and much of the systems are theoretical in the sense they cannot be tested or are simply constructs to help convey a perspective of study, the principles of stewardship are tested and tried every day in practical ministry and everyday life. Such are the principles conveyed in the Book of proverbs, parables and throughout scripture itself. Practical theology is often neglected as it is not noval or overly exciting or debatable in theological circles. Its just there working.

Exactly right. Systematic theologies are a logical frameworks that influence the way people interpret the scriptures. Stewardship is simply a good way to live for Christ.

[Invicta]

On 10/6/2023 at 4:32 PM, BrotherTony said:

That's a rather inflammatory statement, especially in light of the fact you haven't shown how it's allegedly adding to scripture. Most IFB churches clearly understand that there is a seven year period after the rapture of the church known as the Tribulation. 

Where in scripture does it say any time for tribulation other than 10 days?

[BrotherTony]

14 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Where in scripture does it say any time for tribulation other than 10 days?

The whole book of Revelation. Where do you come up with 10 days? I must be missing something here. There are three and a half years of relative peace with the antichrist signing a 3 1/2 year peace treaty with Israel. He breaks it which brings 3 1/2 years of great tribulation. Seven years total.

This is the second time you've implied someone is either "adding to scripture" or doesn't know what they are talking about. You've eluded to "10 years, " but have provided no scriptural reference to this.

Edited October 29, 2023 by BrotherTony

[Jerry]

Daniel 9:24-27 talk about a 490 year period (70 weeks of 7 years) where God will deal with Israel. Verse 27 refers to the final seven year period which is the time of the Antichrist’ s peace treaty with Israel. which has not happened yet. That is the tribulation period, which he breaks at the midpoint. Jesus refers to that in Matthew 24:15, and calls the last half (3 1/2 years) the great tribulation. There are seven direct references to the length of time that will be.

The Bible contains seven direct references to the length of the Great Tribulation (the second half - though both halves are the same length: seven years divided equally into two parts of 3 1/2 years each.

42 months - Revelation 11:2; 13:5

1260 days - Revelation 11:3; 12:6

A time, times, and half a time - Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 12:14

There are also two more references to Elijah’s end-time ministry and its length as being equal to the length of the drought he prayed for during his ministry in Old Testament times (3 years and 6 months). See James 5:17 and Luke 4:25

[Jerry]

This is probably what he is referring to:

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

It is a prophecy about the church of Smyrna going through a trial - not stating the tribulation period will be 10 days (their specific tribulation will be).

There were 10 persecutions of Christians by Roman emperors in the first to third centuries, and the last one actually lasted for 10 days.

[Invicta]

On 10/29/2023 at 5:00 PM, BrotherTony said:

The whole book of Revelation. Where do you come up with 10 days? I must be missing something here. There are three and a half years of relative peace with the antichrist signing a 3 1/2 year peace treaty with Israel. He breaks it which brings 3 1/2 years of great tribulation. Seven years total.

This is the second time you've implied someone is either "adding to scripture" or doesn't know what they are talking about. You've eluded to "10 years, " but have provided no scriptural reference to this.

Revelation 2:10.  

[Invicta]

On 10/29/2023 at 5:55 PM, Jerry said:

Daniel 9:24-27 talk about a 490 year period (70 weeks of 7 years) where God will deal with Israel. Verse 27 refers to the final seven year period which is the time of the Antichrist’ s peace treaty with Israel. which has not happened yet. That is the tribulation period, which he breaks at the midpoint. Jesus refers to that in Matthew 24:15, and calls the last half (3 1/2 years) the great tribulation. There are seven direct references to the length of time that will be.

The Bible contains seven direct references to the length of the Great Tribulation (the second half - though both halves are the same length: seven years divided equally into two parts of 3 1/2 years each.

42 months - Revelation 11:2; 13:5

1260 days - Revelation 11:3; 12:6

A time, times, and half a time - Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 12:14

There are also two more references to Elijah’s end-time ministry and its length as being equal to the length of the drought he prayed for during his ministry in Old Testament times (3 years and 6 months). See James 5:17 and Luke 4:25

The 70 weeks were completed in the ministry of  Christ. Great tribulation in the gospels was on the Jews in The 3½  year Roman War, AD 66-70. Great tribulation in Revelation was on those who had washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, ie Christians. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Invicta

[Jerry]

Nice try - but the book of Revelation refers to all seven tears snd focusses mostly on the great tribulation - the last 3 1/2 years (as I’ve quoted five references to in that book, and two in Daniel), AND the book of Revelation was not written until John was exiled on the Island of Patmos during the reign of the Roman emperor, Domitian, which history showed occurred in the year AD 96 - 26 years after the events of the destruction of Jerusalem so therefore is not a prophecy of what happened in and around the year 70.

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, Invicta said:

Revelation 2:10.  

I think Jerry already posted that. But thanks for the clarification. Still, that's not correct. I believe Jerry has given an explanation of this before if I'm not mistaken. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by BrotherTony

[John Young]

(Bonus Point) 11. Ulterior Motives: Up to this point we have assumed errant but sincere motives in the harts of those hindered by the previous ten points and the desire on all to come to agreement on the truth. If we in honest and sincerer hearts deal with the above hindrances to clearly understanding the scripture there will be a greater consensus and good will on the subject of End Times. Yet we must also acknowledge the hindrance of those who are not interested in coming to the truth but rather prefer to keep them in place for one reason or another. Most of the reasons are self serving in one way or another and are held knowingly to some degree. They can include but are not limited to some of the following: 

11a. Fear of Going Beyond the Group: Generally we do not learn our doctrine in a vacuum. We learn with others and tend to adopt the particular views held by our teachers and peers. We have a natural tenancy to want to be part of the group. Group learning is wonderful and helps ensure you are placing your education on a strong foundation of truth and consensus. For basic education this typically is a must and there is safety in the consensus to ensure your foundation is correctly laid. Such things as the alphabet, arithmetic, dates of events, etc are not controversial in the main. Yet when it is time to construct true ideas from foundational truth and apply them that it becomes controversial with the Group. The Group by nature does not like new or different yet without these error cannot be challenged and truth cannot advance. Not going beyond is safe and endears you to the group but does nothing to purify or refine our doctrine. We often chose to stay and tow the party line rather than make waves.

We see this in scripture with Jewish groups such as Pharisees and Sadducees, Herodians, Essene, etc. All were fundamentally Jewish yet had differing ideas. To go beyond your group in that time often meant joining an opposing group, and this is often the tenancy today. To trade one group for another and then adopt their ideas rather than going alone. Yet Jesus challenged them to go beyond their Fear and group think to that of Love and Scriptural truth.

11b. Love of Novel Ideas: Greek Individualists mindset, as in Acts 17:21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.) is the foundation for most Western secular study. Paul encountered such in Athens at Mars Hill. Often this is thought of going beyond the group, being an individual, yet it is the opposite error, from fearing the Group, to having ideas merely for the sake of ideas. Rather, Paul called us to unity (1 Cor. 14:26). To use our study to edify the group rather than to merely have something “new”. Our ideas must be grounded in truth and be for the edifying of our group. To grow the group in truth. (Acts 17:11)

11c. Personal Notoriety: Becoming known as a teacher of a particular idea or as a leader of an established group will often hinder change from an errant line of thinking as you are now considered it’s champion. To promote the idea or group will be to promote yourself, amassing a following and influence that would be lost if it were abandoned for the truth.

11d. Personal Profit: Ideas are big business and when its tied to your livelihood you are prone to protect the it the best you can. Philippians 3:18-19 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

11e. ….. What would you add to this list of  Ulterior Motives?

Edited November 11, 2023 by John Young

[Jerry]

How about false brethren and false teachers presenting deliberate falsehoods - or unsaved people passing on their wrong beliefs.

[John Young]

12 minutes ago, Jerry said:

presenting deliberate falsehoods.....wrong beliefs.

That's the general point of 11b. Wither its a deliberate falsehood, wrong belief, a conspiracy theory, or etc. People love sharing ideas for the mere fun of it. withwere the idea true, has some basis of truth, or a complete fabrication, it makes no difference to them.

[John Young]

I got around to making a video for all the reading impaired! lol

Hope you all enjoy the walk with me in this conversation!