Why there is confusion on “End Times” among Baptist.

[John Young]

Why there is confusion on “End Times” among Baptist.
By John Young, 9-23-2023

The “End Times” is of great interest, yet there is confusion and hindrances which keeps even the most experienced bible believer from properly understanding the subject. Below I show generally and simply 10 hindrances I see. If you can think of more feel free to comment them below. Over time we will expound on each in more detail to show why we believe each is a hindrance to understanding the truth. 

1. Bible Theology: Of the three main theologies (Covenant, Dispensational, Stewardship), Covenant and Dispensational wrongly lump all bible covenants into one. The only main difference is Covenant holds to a transfer of ownership from Israel and Dispensational holds to a pause of ownership. Yet the bible holds that Promises, Covenants, Testaments and etc. are held by God and only apply to persons qualified by him to be in them and their regulations are to be considered individually held.

2. Order of Revelation: Many have to split up and re-arrange the book to fit their theology. Yet the book does not call for spitting, retelling, or overlaying its events. Rather it shows a clear progression. Covenant and Dispensationist both try to split up and re-arrange the book while ignoring its structure.

3. Division of Church and State: Covenant reject the teaching and commands of the Apostles, that the church and Israel are separate institutions, as stated in Acts 2:41-47; 15; 16:4-5; 21:19-28 in favor of their own theology. Many adherents, particularity Pre-wrath supporters, state boldly, and without fear, that the Apostles teaching and command for the churches to follow is wrong. This a great concern.

4. Appeals to History: While outside history can compliment the scripture it does not have authority to supplant or justify fulfillment of prophesy. This right belongs only to scripture. So, unless the bible shows or states the event as being fulfilled, then the event is yet future. Covenant and Dispensationalist will often appeal to flawed “customized to the event” version of history to fulfill a particular prophesy, so that the scripture will not interfere with their theology on future events. This is wrong.

5. Confusion of Terms: Intentional intermixing of separate and like terms are used to re-order events to favor theology over the plain reading. Day of “***”, Gathering, Rapture, Return, Resurrection, etc.

6. Substitution Theology: Often when the plain reading cannot be ignored and there is no scriptural justification, they will simply switch out the terms for one that does fit in their conceived teaching. Some examples are Angels to Pastors, Day of the Lord to Day of Christ, Babylon to USA.

7. Assumption Theology: When coming to a seemingly confusing or hard passage, rather than leaving it alone or searching scripture for an explanation (which usually will contradict his theology), the teacher will uphold his theology by appealing to “It seems” or “looks like” or “I think” statements.

8. Opposition Theology: Rather than developing theologies to give understanding and to show the clarity of scripture on a matter, many teachings arise in opposition to another teaching. Over time this develops In a disregard for scriptural context in favor of promoting one flawed theology over another.

9. Vilifying Opponents: Frustrated by opposition theology that lacks the contextual clarity of scripture, the adherence have little choice but to keep followers by tribalism and fear-mongering, leading to willful ignorance and stalled development of the true scriptural position or investigation on a matter.

10. Biblical Context: Rather than a culture of teaching deep contextual study of scripture, in the order and priority of scripture, theology and opinions of men are sought to teach on a topic and treated as if studying a matter, leading to a prioritizing, reordering and systematizing of things scripture does not.

[SureWord]

I would say #3 causes the most confusion. 

[TheGloryLand]

11. Because of false teaching, there is much confusion.

2Pet.2

1. [1] But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

[BrotherTony]

15 hours ago, John Young said:

Why there is confusion on “End Times” among Baptist.
By John Young, 9-23-2023

The “End Times” is of great interest, yet there is confusion and hindrances which keeps even the most experienced bible believer from properly understanding the subject. Below I show generally and simply 10 hindrances I see. If you can think of more feel free to comment them below. Over time we will expound on each in more detail to show why we believe each is a hindrance to understanding the truth. 

1. Bible Theology: Of the three main theologies (Covenant, Dispensational, Stewardship), Covenant and Dispensational wrongly lump all bible covenants into one. The only main difference is Covenant holds to a transfer of ownership from Israel and Dispensational holds to a pause of ownership. Yet the bible holds that Promises, Covenants, Testaments and etc. are held by God and only apply to persons qualified by him to be in them and their regulations are to be considered individually held.

2. Order of Revelation: Many have to split up and re-arrange the book to fit their theology. Yet the book does not call for spitting, retelling, or overlaying its events. Rather it shows a clear progression. Covenant and Dispensationist both try to split up and re-arrange the book while ignoring its structure.

3. Division of Church and State: Covenant reject the teaching and commands of the Apostles, that the church and Israel are separate institutions, as stated in Acts 2:41-47; 15; 16:4-5; 21:19-28 in favor of their own theology. Many adherents, particularity Pre-wrath supporters, state boldly, and without fear, that the Apostles teaching and command for the churches to follow is wrong. This a great concern.

4. Appeals to History: While outside history can compliment the scripture it does not have authority to supplant or justify fulfillment of prophesy. This right belongs only to scripture. So, unless the bible shows or states the event as being fulfilled, then the event is yet future. Covenant and Dispensationalist will often appeal to flawed “customized to the event” version of history to fulfill a particular prophesy, so that the scripture will not interfere with their theology on future events. This is wrong.

5. Confusion of Terms: Intentional intermixing of separate and like terms are used to re-order events to favor theology over the plain reading. Day of “***”, Gathering, Rapture, Return, Resurrection, etc.

6. Substitution Theology: Often when the plain reading cannot be ignored and there is no scriptural justification, they will simply switch out the terms for one that does fit in their conceived teaching. Some examples are Angels to Pastors, Day of the Lord to Day of Christ, Babylon to USA.

7. Assumption Theology: When coming to a seemingly confusing or hard passage, rather than leaving it alone or searching scripture for an explanation (which usually will contradict his theology), the teacher will uphold his theology by appealing to “It seems” or “looks like” or “I think” statements.

8. Opposition Theology: Rather than developing theologies to give understanding and to show the clarity of scripture on a matter, many teachings arise in opposition to another teaching. Over time this develops In a disregard for scriptural context in favor of promoting one flawed theology over another.

9. Vilifying Opponents: Frustrated by opposition theology that lacks the contextual clarity of scripture, the adherence have little choice but to keep followers by tribalism and fear-mongering, leading to willful ignorance and stalled development of the true scriptural position or investigation on a matter.

10. Biblical Context: Rather than a culture of teaching deep contextual study of scripture, in the order and priority of scripture, theology and opinions of men are sought to teach on a topic and treated as if studying a matter, leading to a prioritizing, reordering and systematizing of things scripture does not.

Please, expound on these things you say are incorrect... let's start with dispensationalism. I know many here view Revelation in a dispensational light. I've been hearing this from a lot of preachers lately, but few want to actually expound on why and what portions are incorrect.

[John Young]

22 minutes ago, SureWord said:

I would say #3 causes the most confusion. 

I agree. If we all could get settled on this one then bible theology would be much easier to discuss and understand. Also I was surprised on how many otherwise bible believing baptist would state the apostles were wrong when teaching these passages. The even use Paul's correction of Peter as their excuse to disregard the decision on the matter.

[John Young]

20 minutes ago, TheGloryLand said:

11. Because of false teaching, there is much confusion.

2Pet.2

1. [1] But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

I have had a few people mention this as a possible separate point. Yet this list is more for bible believers to make progress on end times and I think learning how to spot and deal with false teachers should be its own separate topic of discussion. I also didn't add it because with a subject like this its too easy to claim everyone with a different opinion is a false teacher. It also could probably be discussed somewhat under 8 and 9 but I'll keep it in mind as a separate point or subject of study. Thanks!

[TheGloryLand]

The reason I brought up this verse is also to mention those teachers/pastors who are trying to help God. When God, does not need their help, but needs them to listen and follow Him. Pretty much He is Lord of all. By trying to do much for good, they are doing wrong. I like the tract, God's simple plan for Salvation.

Edited September 24, 2023 by TheGloryLand

[Joe Chandler]

On 9/23/2023 at 4:06 PM, John Young said:

1. Bible Theology: Of the three main theologies (Covenant, Dispensational, Stewardship)

I do not know what Stewardship theology is. I am familiar with Covenant theology and dispensationalism and their respective eschatological views. I know Covenant folk who are pre and post tribulation rapture folks. Tell me about Stewardship theology.

[Joe Chandler]

Allow me to add a problem that I see among us. We seem to know what a passage means, but not what the passage actually says.

Example #1: The seven churches of Asia Minor in Revelation. Some are adamant that each church represents the different church ages. Some are equally adamant that each church is merely a representative example of churches today. The bible doesn't say any of that. All that is revealed in scripture is that there were 7 churches and that Christ had a message for each of them. 

Example #2: Those who hear and reject the gospel today cannot be saved after the rapture. This was the objection I most heard concerning the Left Behind series. The verse says, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Who is sent the strong delusion? Those who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Could that be referring to people who heard and rejected the gospel? Yes it could. Does it say that? No. Maybe I am too literal.

[SureWord]

12 hours ago, Joe Chandler said:

Allow me to add a problem that I see among us. We seem to know what a passage means, but not what the passage actually says.

Example #1: The seven churches of Asia Minor in Revelation. Some are adamant that each church represents the different church ages. Some are equally adamant that each church is merely a representative example of churches today. The bible doesn't say any of that. All that is revealed in scripture is that there were 7 churches and that Christ had a message for each of them. 

Example #2: Those who hear and reject the gospel today cannot be saved after the rapture. This was the objection I most heard concerning the Left Behind series. The verse says, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Who is sent the strong delusion? Those who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Could that be referring to people who heard and rejected the gospel? Yes it could. Does it say that? No. Maybe I am too literal.

On example #1 there are some now saying they are churches that will be in the future during the Tribulation 

On example #2 it's probably more the truth of who Jesus Christ is rather then just rejecting the gospel. Just my opinion.

[Joe Chandler]

14 hours ago, SureWord said:

On example #1 there are some now saying they are churches that will be in the future during the Tribulation 

On example #2 it's probably more the truth of who Jesus Christ is rather then just rejecting the gospel. Just my opinion.

#1 is a new one to me. Thanks. #2 your idea seems sound to me.

[John Young]

On 9/26/2023 at 11:05 AM, Joe Chandler said:

I do not know what Stewardship theology is.

Its the same thing as what the bible says about Stewardship. Here is a good video: 

 

[BrotherTony]

2 hours ago, John Young said:

Its the same thing as what the bible says about Stewardship. Here is a good video: 

 

Who's preaching this? He looks familiar.   Ah, I see it's Brother Shifflet.

Edited September 29, 2023 by BrotherTony
Realized who was preaching.

[John Young]

On 9/26/2023 at 11:31 AM, Joe Chandler said:

Allow me to add a problem that I see among us. We seem to know what a passage means, but not what the passage actually says.

Example #1: The seven churches of Asia Minor in Revelation. Some are adamant that each church represents the different church ages. Some are equally adamant that each church is merely a representative example of churches today. The bible doesn't say any of that. All that is revealed in scripture is that there were 7 churches and that Christ had a message for each of them. 

Example #2: Those who hear and reject the gospel today cannot be saved after the rapture. This was the objection I most heard concerning the Left Behind series. The verse says, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Who is sent the strong delusion? Those who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Could that be referring to people who heard and rejected the gospel? Yes it could. Does it say that? No. Maybe I am too literal.

I would say many things these could be placed under #7.

Yet we can also say for your first example that Christ exhorted all who can hear to hear what the Spirit said unto the 7. This means the things for the seven are also for all who are in the Spirit to hear.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; ...
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; ...

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; ...
Revelation 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Revelation 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Revelation 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

As for the second I would tend to agree with you on a strong likelihood due to the spiritual depravity and strong delusion but not a hard can't. More of a don't want to of Romans 1, as indicated by the words "had pleasure" in 2 Thess 2:12.

[Jerry]

On 9/23/2023 at 1:06 PM, John Young said:

6. Substitution Theology: Often when the plain reading cannot be ignored and there is no scriptural justification, they will simply switch out the terms for one that does fit in their conceived teaching. Some examples are Angels to Pastors, Day of the Lord to Day of Christ, Babylon to USA.

Maybe I am missing something here, but the references to the angels (ie. messengers) of the seven churches in chapters 1-3 does fit the local pastor leading that church, and therefore teaching/preaching the Word of God to their individual congregations.

Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

And so on...

Unless you are talking about making angels mean pastors throughout the rest of the book?