What is wrong with Christian Contemporary Music and Rock?

[Guest Guest]

[kevinmiller]

Good reminder, LuAnne. Thanks. :smile

[HappyChristian]

Good reminder' date=' LuAnne. Thanks. :smile[/quote']

[John81]

Hey, Kevin, I just wanted to address this. You've used 1 Tim 4:12 more than once, and used it in a way that tries to put the blame on someone "offending" someone who is young. But that is not what Timothy is being taught. Paul is exhorting him to behave in such a way that people won't despise his youth - he is not saying anything about someone who makes a comment on someone's youth. So, no, his comment doesn't offend Scripture.

He did kind of qualify his comment in the next statement. I agree with you that young people can write things that are great - I did when I was in my 20's, and my son did when he was in his teens! So, I'm not disagreeing with the point you are making - just your mis-usage of 1 Tim. 4:12: "Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity."

(and don't forget, Kevin - "Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them." If someone is making a blanket statement with which we don't agree - we oughtn't get offended! I realize that it is because you are 20 - but to get offended and then become agitated is simply losing ground! You know you can write good things, because God has helped you do so...in light of eternity, it doesn't matter what someone you've never met thinks!)

Words well spoken LuAnne! That's a mighty fine example of speaking the truth in love :thumb

[Wilchbla]

Wow, Casting Crowns must be a really good band to put up this much of a defense for them.

This is why I don't share my personal tastes in music much with others unless it is traditional hymns from the hymn book. No use in straining any relationships.

I am bothered, though, by the constant twisting of the verse "abstain from all appearance of evil." It's amazing how one can twist the obvious meaning of a simple verse to justify worldliness.

Bill

[kevinmiller]

Wow, Casting Crowns must be a really good band to put up this much of a defense for them.

It's an excellent band with some great lyrics.

I am bothered, though, by the constant twisting of the verse "abstain from all appearance of evil." It's amazing how one can twist the obvious meaning of a simple verse to justify worldliness.

It's only obvious because that's how it's been explained to you. If you learn something a certain way, it seems so clear that it must be the way it was taught to you. That's why everyone's religions seem to be so clear in Scripture to them. It's only when you get out of that tradition and religious box that you are in do you begin to see things for what they are rather than what people have told you they are. Of course, that's my opinion based on personal experience.

That verse being interpreted the way most fundamentalists interpret it doesn't make sense practically or in the light of Scripture. It makes more sense, reading it for what it says, that we should stay away from evil any time it appears.

Here is an interesting article I found.http://www.experiencegrace.com/Appearance_of_Evil.html
I thought this quote was interesting(and I'm not calling you a legalist, btw).

They are used when the legalist has not found a definitive Biblical response. They then say something like: ?God wants us to avoid all appearance of evil in our lives.?

It is impossible to stay away from anything that might appear evil because who's to say who it might appear evil to. A mennonite would consider a nice car to be an appearance of evil. People say playing cards appears evil because they've been used for gambling. Others say that going to the movies gives the appearance of evil even if you're seeing a Christian movie since bad movies are also showing(even though we can buy a classical cd from the music section in Wal-Mart, despite the fact that it's right next to the rap section). It doesn't make sense and is totally dictated by personal opinion.

Another good article:http://www.padfield.com/1996/appear.html

I went to high school with several Mennonites and nearly everything I said or did "appeared" evil to them. My clothing was sinful because it wasn't black. I drove a car that had chrome bumpers and they considered that sinful because it was "too flashy" (it's still hard for me to imagine a beat-up AMC Rambler as "flashy"). We used electricity in our house and that was considered a sin -- it "appeared" to be evil. Conversation without using words like "Thee" and "Thou" was taboo -- it "appeared" to be evil.

Maybe by now you can see the problem. It is hard to imagine anything that doesn't "appear" evil to someone! Worshipping God on the first day of the week "appears" to be evil to the Seventh Day Adventists. Referring to Jesus Christ of Nazareth as the Messiah "appears" to be evil to the Jews. Our disregard for the "Pope" appears to be evil to Catholics. Saluting the flag "appears" to be evil to Jehovah's Witnesses. Preaching on the consequences of adultery "appears" to be evil to several "heretic finders" in the brotherhood.

The word translated as "appearance" in the King James Version is the Greek word eidos. Concerning this verse Marvin Vincent wrote, "As commonly explained, abstain from everything that even looks like evil. But the word signifies form or kind...It never has the sense of semblance. Moreover, it is impossible to abstain from everything that looks like evil." (Word Studies in The New Testament, Vol. IV, p. 51).

And this one:http://columbiaseminary.edu/coffeetalk/060.html

The Master Abstainer: Jesus as Example
Next, have you considered some things Jesus did? One thing we know for certain, Jesus abstained from sin. And, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but it does not seem that Jesus always abstained from the "appearance" of evil.

He and his disciples picked grain on the Sabbath, and they did not ceremoniously wash their hands before eating. Both of those "appeared" evil.

Furthermore, Jesus ate with the tax-collectors, prostitutes, and other sinners.

He also drank wine. In fact, this looked so evil to some of his time that they charged him with being a drunkard (an alcoholic) in Matthew 11:19:

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and 'sinners.'"

And, in Luke 7:34:

"Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners."

Even the NKJV translates that verse: Abstain from every form of evil.

[HappyChristian]

FTR - my earlier post wasn't meant to support or defend Casting Crowns.

As far as CCM goes - as a genre of music, I generally dislike it. It, to me, is too close to too many songs of the unsaved.

There are the rocky ones - they sound just like ungodly rock songs - even if you can understand their lyrics.

There are the ballads - sung breathily, I've heard these referred to as (by people who listen to and like them) "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs. Well, Jesus isn't my boyfriend!! He's my Saviour. Lover of my soul, yes, but on a much higher plane than "boyfriend."

As far as Casting Crowns - I've listened to a good bit of their music, simply so that I can say that I've heard it and am not just casting (no pun intended) it away. The lead singer has a good voice; I do like the unusual aspect of their using strings with their music. The songs usually start out in a way that I would like to listen to - but then it crescendos, and it begins to make me feel like I'm back to listening to the world's music, and I'm not really hearing the words any more.

Their music, to me, falls in between rock and ballad. The words to most of their songs are good. And the group is mostly clean cut. But I just don't like the sounds of the songs after a bit...and they all begin to sound kind of the same after a while.

Does that make me weak? Heavens, no!!! If someone were listening to it, it wouldn't cause me to stumble - I don't need their music for my spiritual life. There's plenty of good stuff out there that I can and do listen to!
I really do find it hilarious that people who like to listen to CCM think that someone who doesn't is "weak" and would stumble into sin if the CCM listener were to listen to it while the "weaker" person were around. Sometimes that could be the case. But in the majority of cases it isn't so. It's simply that the person who doesn't like CCM likes a higher class of music.

Now, please note - when I say CCM, I am not talking about any new song that comes along! I have written songs...that would make them CCM by that definition. I am talking about it as a general genre of music.

The thing about music is - we are all musical creatures (I don't mean that we can all sing, play instruments, or even carry a tune in a bucket...just that God made us all to enjoy music). And we will listen to the music that appeals to us. But the thing is - if we listen to any kind of music long enough, it will appeal to us. Music is that way. We are that way.

[kevinmiller]

You make some good points and I agree with some of your observations about CCM. I don't like the songs that treat God like he's (a)a pop star, (b)your "buddy," or your boyfriend/girlfriend. I think God holiness and majesty deserves much more than that. There is even a CC song that isn't particularly rocky but I skip through it because I feel like it is singing to God more like he's a lover than our sovereign Lord as well as friend.

I tend to think of deference to other Christians opinions as being sensitive both to their weaknesses(a lot of people who shun CCM have expressed their own weaknesses due to past associations with heavy metal or being in secular rock bands) as well as to offending them and making them upset, and a lot of people would become somewhat angry if you were to turn on that music in their presence.

I think you're right when you say that some people like a "higher class" of music in that most CCM is subpar when it comes to quality. Unfortunately, most secular artists are much more talented than Christians ones(and having a bigger budget to pay writers with makes a difference too, I'm sure). That being said, I really enjoy the inspiring and worshipful lyrics attached to an easy to learn, easy to sing along with, and simple catchy melodies. I really get excited about a lot of the lyrics to the CCM songs I listen to as opposed to the music itself. Even such a simple song such as "Lord I Lift Your Name On High" gets me excited as I sing it and I could sing it over and over again. A lot of people scorn such repetition and lack of meat in the lyrics but I love the simple repeating of praise sung to God. In Psalms 136, David repeated the phrase "for his mercy endureth forever" in all 26 verses after only a short line preceding it.

[elijahruth]

You make some good points and I agree with some of your observations about CCM. I don't like the songs that treat God like he's (a)a pop star, (b)your "buddy," or your boyfriend/girlfriend. I think God holiness and majesty deserves much more than that. There is even a CC song that isn't particularly rocky but I skip through it because I feel like it is singing to God more like he's a lover than our sovereign Lord as well as friend.

I tend to think of deference to other Christians opinions as being sensitive both to their weaknesses(a lot of people who shun CCM have expressed their own weaknesses due to past associations with heavy metal or being in secular rock bands) as well as to offending them and making them upset, and a lot of people would become somewhat angry if you were to turn on that music in their presence.

I think you're right when you say that some people like a "higher class" of music in that most CCM is subpar when it comes to quality. Unfortunately, most secular artists are much more talented than Christians ones(and having a bigger budget to pay writers with makes a difference too, I'm sure). That being said, I really enjoy the inspiring and worshipful lyrics attached to an easy to learn, easy to sing along with, and simple catchy melodies. I really get excited about a lot of the lyrics to the CCM songs I listen to as opposed to the music itself. Even such a simple song such as "Lord I Lift Your Name On High" gets me excited as I sing it and I could sing it over and over again. A lot of people scorn such repetition and lack of meat in the lyrics but I love the simple repeating of praise sung to God. In Psalms 136, David repeated the phrase "for his mercy endureth forever" in all 26 verses after only a short line preceding it.

I used to listen to rock music, but I do not consider it a weakness anymore. I have no desire at all to listen to it. When you are saved, God seperates or sanctifies you and puts convictions in your heart. I have seen first hand how that kind of music effects other people. My conviction is that there should be no gray line. I like that words alot, of some of the "christian rock" bands but firmly believe that they should seperate themselves more from worldly music and what attracts people now. I also know people who would listen to christian rock or regular rock if they were talented musicians or if the man or woman was good looking enough. Not saying everyone does, but alot do. Alot of young people who like christian rock like it for the same reasons they like rock. The beat, the looks and the actions. Not all do though. I think the christian artists led to sing of God's word are doing an honourable thing, but they could honour and glorify God more by doing as he asks and seperating themselves from the world. No offense, just very strong conviction from many years experience and observation and most importantly the Holy Spirit.

[Wilchbla]

It's only obvious because that's how it's been explained to you. If you learn something a certain way, it seems so clear that it must be the way it was taught to you. That's why everyone's religions seem to be so clear in Scripture to them. It's only when you get out of that tradition and religious box that you are in do you begin to see things for what they are rather than what people have told you they are. Of course, that's my opinion based on personal experience.

Who said anyone explained it to me that way? It's a clear and simple verse in what it says. You have to be taught by someone that it doesn't mean what it says. You are to abstain from all appearance of evil. Period. Whether by not appearing to do wrong thus causing a weaker brother to stumble or given the unsaved an occasion to gossip, which Paul mentions in other epistles, or by abstaining from evil when it "appears" in you life. The verse can apply either way.

Bill

[kevinmiller]

Out of everything I posted, that's the extent of your reply? The "appearance" of evil is totally subjective and, as such, cannot be a sin and, therefore, cannot be the correct interpretation of that verse. It's anyone's guess what the appearance of evil is by your definition, since it would be different by country, by culture, and even by personal interpretation. The Mennonites consider a lot of things to be the appearance of evil that you wouldn't. Therefore, according to them, you are in sin because of your "worldly" dress and other "worldly" goods. So they are as convinced that you are in sin as you are that we are in sin who listen to CCM. Are you in sin because they think you are having the appearance of evil? Of course not, and neither are we, because who knows what appears evil to who. It all goes by your own personal standards and is totally extra-Biblical. Your and the Mennonites' and many others' interpretation of that verse only leads to legalism and confusion and standards that vary according to your personal interpretation of what "appears" evil and what doesn't.

[John81]

You do raise some good points Kevin. The list of things that some would consider that might appear evil is virtually endless.

Does it appear evil to eat at a restaurant on Sunday? Some say yes, some say no. What about shopping or going to visit relatives or friends? Again, some say yes, some say no.

[Guest Guest]

Out of everything I posted' date=' that's the extent of your reply? The "appearance" of evil is totally subjective and, as such, cannot be a sin and, therefore, cannot be the correct interpretation of that verse. It's anyone's guess what the appearance of evil is by your definition, since it would be different by country, by culture, and even by personal interpretation. The Mennonites consider a lot of things to be the appearance of evil that you wouldn't. Therefore, according to them, you are in sin because of your "worldly" dress and other "worldly" goods. So they are as convinced that you are in sin as you are that we are in sin who listen to CCM. Are you in sin because they think you are having the appearance of evil? Of course not, and neither are we, because who knows what appears evil to who. It all goes by your own personal standards and is totally extra-Biblical. Your and the Mennonites' and many others' interpretation of that verse only leads to legalism and confusion and standards that vary according to your personal interpretation of what "appears" evil and what doesn't.[/quote']
I know a good deal about Mennonites (as I and my family used to be part of them), and the group we were associated with was not like that.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

[John81]

With regards to Mennonites, they are a very varied lot. They range from "almost Amish" to "almost mainstream".

[Guest Guest]

With regards to Mennonites' date=' they are a very varied lot. They range from "almost Amish" to "almost mainstream".[/quote']
Yes sir, I agree. There is a lot of variety amongst them.
God bless,
Crushmaster.