Salvation is of The Lord. Redemption ,Accomplished and Applied

[Iconoclast]

4 hours ago, Jerry said:

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Actually the verse says this:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

 

Hello Jerry, thanks for making a sincere attempt to answers the questions according to your understanding ,instead of avoiding the questions as some are in the habit of doing.I have others express the same ideas you offer, but I will as some questions to attempt to get you to clarify what your answers mean.

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God's grace has appeared to all men

Jerry, who are the all men here/? all men ever born on the planet?

All men since creation?

If so, had did this grace appear to them?

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Just like Jesus' enlightens every man,

Again, I have an idea what this means, but can you explain how?

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draws all men to Himself through the Gospel.

What about men who have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel, as Romans tells us?

¹⁴ How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

¹⁵ And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

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He makes the truth and the gift of salvation available

,You are saying a "potential salvation" is being offered? But it is not actual unless something is added to it?

How does He make this available to people in the rain forrest who have not heard of Jesus?

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but mankind is free to accept or reject the truth

,Jesus in Jn 8 told those religious people they were no free , but rather bound in sin.Where do you see anywhere that men are 'free"

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accept or reject the Saviour and His gift of salvation.

Men are blinded by satan, the world, and the flesh, where is all this freedom coming from?Do you see where some have an issue, with this explanation?

 

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You quoted Jn1;9..

How exactly, I have an answer, but I am looking for your view.In what way does this happen to all men?

 

 

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 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

what people are you saying are drawn here? how does this happen exactly?

 

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- Salvation has been provided for all

 

,Again, you speak of a potential salvation, not an actual salvation.The OP speaks about an actual real salvation, applied to real people throughout time.

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the way has been prepared for all,

Again...you speak of a potential salvation that has not saved anyone, only shows a way,something must be added to it, so it is not actually applied to anyone.

 

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all of sin's debt has been paid by the Lord Jesus Christ upon the cross.

Everyone's sin was not paid for, or they would not be cast into second death and eternally pay for their sins.

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2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Really good verse, but even better when we understand vs.9 with it as it describes that the elect are the object of this great redemption;

⁹ Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

¹⁰ But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

You see here the great blessing of election and particular redemption as God's love before time was placed on a people given to the Son, by the Father.

 

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2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ

.Yes, once again;

¹³ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

¹⁴ Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Election as a blessing is found everywhere.I do not fight against it, i believe it.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

You quote the verse and offer no real explanation. I am looking for the explanation as to who the all men are. You avoided all my questions concerning that because it will show the shallow nature of your ideas,

You say all of mankind?

Indeed, because that is precisely what God's own Word says -- "ALL MEN" (Greek - "pasin anthropois").  The group that the word "all" in the verse is designating has already been defined by the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit -- "ALL MEN" (all mankind).  Any denial thereof strikes against the authority of God the Holy Spirit Himself.  (But I am sure that you will proceed to tell us that "all men" really means some group less than "all men."  Yea, hath God said?  But that is not what He really meant.)

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

Does this include the world of the ungodly who perished in the flood?

does it include the over 5000 people groups alive today who have never heard of the name of Jesus?

Does it include Pharoahs army who were killed in the Red Sea?

Yes, to all three questions, since they all are a part of the group defined by "ALL MEN."

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

then you admit you have no way of knowing how this grace appears to them?, which means you lack any understanding of what the verse is teaching, but you suggest believe it without trying to understand it.

Actually, I admitted no such thing.  What I actually said was:

3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Third, the verse itself does not tell us how "the grace of God that bringeth salvation" has "appeared to all men."  It just reveals the fact for us to believe as God's Word has reported it.  (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

But I also added:

3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, for the answer to that question, we would need to consider other passages of Scripture. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Which means that I acknowledged that there indeed IS a way of knowing how this grace of God has appeared unto ALL MEN -- through the teaching of other passage of Scripture.  (Note: I just did not proceed to share any of those other passages in the posting above, because I wanted to wait for your manner of response.)

[Iconoclast]

I give you credit in your attempt to be consistent .

But your view makes no sense.You can only believe what you can until God grants you a better understanding 

Thanks for your response.

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

12 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

So then, let us consider God's Word.  Do we find the phrase "godly line" or the phrase "ungodly line" anywhere therein?  While we certainly DO find the words "godly" and "ungodly" employed in God's Word to describe particular individuals and groups, we NEVER actually find either the phrase "godly line" or "ungodly line" in God's Word.  Now, when the word "line" is used in the context of humanity, it generally means "lineage; the descendants of a common ancestor."  If such was your intended usage for the term in your declaration, then it would have been better to use actual Biblical terminology, such as that there are two spiritual families -- the children of God and the children of disobedience.

10 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

The word trinity , or bible does not appear either, so are you going to discount those terms also???

Since such terms are not specifically terms of God's own Word, but are created by men, their doctrinal value is only good to the extent that they describe and define the actual teaching of God's Word.  In the case of the two examples that you provided ("trinity" and "Bible"), I am happy to accept and use those terms as long as they are being defined Biblically.

So, let us consider your man-made doctrinal term, and how you chose to define it (at least thus far):

10 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

The Godly line is used to trace the seed who are those in Union with Christ;

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

By using the phrase "godly line" in conjunction with the phrase "to trace," you appear to be using "godly line" to convey a progressive lineage of godly individuals (who are godly through their "union with Christ.")  Here is my problem with this idea -- God's Word does not present such a progressive lineage of godly individuals.  God's Word only presents a singular Family of God, wherein God the Father is the Father of that singular family, wherein God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, is the First (and eternal) Son of the Father, and wherein all believers through faith in Christ are spiritually born again as joint-heired children with God the Son of God the Father.  There is NO "line" of godly lineage thereafter.  There is just the one Family -- God the Father, God the Son, and the multitude of God's spiritually born-again children.

Now, you quote Romans 9:7 as the evidence for your point.  However, Romans 9:7 in its context is NOT teaching anything about a "godly LINE."  Consider the full context of Romans 9:6-8 -- "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."  The context of Romans 9:6-8 is teaching concerning the family of God, that individuals are NOT the children of God simply by being a part of Abraham's physical seed/lineage.  Rather, they are children of God through the divine promise.  Indeed, this all is presented in order to verify that NOT all of physical Israel, although of the physical seed/lineage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, are actually counted by God as the spiritual children of God. 

Being a member of that physical seed/lineage is NOT what counted with God.  What counted with God was if an individual, no matter whether Israelite or Gentile, had entered into God's promise; for children of God, the spiritual seed, are counted by God through His promise.  So then, how does an individual enter into God's promise to be one of God's children?  Romans 9:30-33 reveals the answer -- "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.  But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.  Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.  For they stumbled at that stumbling stone; as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence; and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."  Indeed, Romans 10:8-13 further adds, "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

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12 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

So, in Genesis 3:15 the singular seed of the woman is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.  Furthermore, through faith in Christ believers may indeed be called Abraham's seed (as per Galatians 3:29).  However, this still does NOT mean that believers are the seed of the WOMAN in Genesis 3:15.  Indeed, Genesis 3:15 has nothing to do with a "godly line."  Rather, it has to do with a PROMISED SAVIOR.

10 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

This reveals a lack of understanding of the Covenant Salvation we Have IN Christ.

No, I understand the eternal salvation that we believers have in Christ.  Yet I still contend that Genesis 3:15 is not talking about some "godly line."  Genesis 3:15 is talking about a singular individual who can be described as the seed of the woman, as one who would bruise Satan's head, and as one whose heel Satan would bruise.  Noting that Jesus the Christ was born of a virgin woman, and that seed is normally spoken as of a man, not a woman, we recognize that through His virgin birth Jesus Christ is that singular seed of the woman.  Furthermore, we recognize that through His death on the cross, His heel was bruised by Satan, but also that through His sacrificial death and glorious resurrection, He bruised Satan's head.  HE is the seed of the woman in Genesis 3:15.  

10 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

He is the head, we are the body.

²⁰ I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Certainly, God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, is the Head of His spiritual body, the New Testament church; and certainly, we New Testament believers are the individual members of His spiritual body.  However, nothing in the context of Genesis 3:15 indicates that it is speaking about this relationship.  Rather, it is speaking strictly about God's promise of Satan's defeat through Christ and of Christ's work as the PROMISED SAVIOR.

10 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

²⁹ And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Certainly, according to Galatians 3:29 if we be Christ's through faith in Him, then we are counted by God spiritually as Abraham's seed and as God's own heirs according to promise.  However, this does not make us in any manner the seed of the woman; for it only speaks about our being the seed of Abraham by being in Christ.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar

[BrotherTony]

12 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Pastor Scott has offered some verses concerning the word.....all

For example, he quotes titus2:11

In what way has that truth appeared to all men?

Yes it says those words, but what does it mean exactly?

Who are the all men?

How has this truth appeared to them?

I enjoy all these verses but we need to understand them.

Romans 1:16-20

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[Iconoclast]

16 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

Romans 1:16-20

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Good verses.Men know there is a God.They are without excuse. 

But this does not save anyone.

[BrotherTony]

3 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Good verses.Men know there is a God.They are without excuse. 

But this does not save anyone.

Neither does hearing the Gospel. It's  a necessity, though. Still, when one HEARS the gospel, it doesn't mean that they are going to necessarily respond positively to it. Festus didn't. Remember? "ALMOST, though persuadest me to become a Christian." All throughout Scripture, God has given people the CHOICE to follow him or not...in Egypt, he gave Pharoah the chance to just do as he had commanded and "let my people go." He refused...after so many times we see that GOD hardened his heart...an offer to acknowledge God as God was extended several times before this, and Pharoah made a conscious decision NOT to accept. You know...FREE WILL...We also find in Scripture where there was a chance to be saved from God's wrath by looking to a standard with a snake on it to help them recover from a deadly disease...LOOK AND LIVE....Again, FREE WILL. In the New Testament, Christ tells a rich young ruler to "sell all that you have and follow me." He doesn't. The offer is extended, but he refuses...FREE WILL.  You say FREE WILL (the words) aren't in the Bible...maybe so. But, the PRINCIPLE is! 

[Jerry]

15 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

I give you credit in your attempt to be consistent .

But your view makes no sense.You can only believe what you can until God grants you a better understanding 

Thanks for your response.

 

You are truly funny - you are so Calvinistic, you think no one can get understanding of God's Word unless sovereignly given by God Himself (yes, I do believe the Holy Spirit opens our understanding as we take the initiative and study His Word and cry out to the Lord for wisdom - ie. it is not sovereignly given to some and withheld from others, but given to those who seek the Lord for it, like James 1:5 and Proverbs 2 teach) - yet you debate your heretical opinions in these threads. Maybe God has sovereignly chose to only give you this perfect understanding, and you are stubbornly resisting His will by trying to make others believe it who have not been sovereignly decreed to do so.

Though I personally believe all the Bible promises that God gives regarding finding truth as we study, seek, continue in, etc. the Word of God. In NONE of those passages does God limit His offer of truth, except to open it up to those who are born of Him, with the Holy Spirit indwelling them (as 1 Corinthians 2 teaches). Truth, wisdom, and understanding is FREELY offered to those sincerely seeking it (ie. who persevere in His Word to find it).

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Jerry

[Jerry]

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

God (ie. our Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ) was bruised on the cross by the Devil (but ultimately by our Father in Heaven when He bore our sins and died - but He arose again because the penalty was paid in full), Soon He will bruise Satan under His feet - and therefore under our feet, as we are in Him - when He comes back to judge and physically reign over this world.

[Iconoclast]

8 hours ago, Jerry said:

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You are truly funny - you are so Calvinistic, you think no one can get understanding of God's Word unless sovereignly given by God Himself (yes, I do believe the Holy Spirit opens our understanding as we take the initiative and study His Word and cry out to the Lord for wisdom

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ie. it is not sovereignly given to some and withheld from others,

but given to those who seek the Lord for it, like James 1:5 and Proverbs 2 teach) - yet you debate your heretical opinions in these threads. Maybe God has sovereignly chose to only give you this perfect understanding, and you are stubbornly resisting His will by trying to make others believe it who have not been sovereignly decreed to do so.

Hello Jerry

 I like that you are direct, Mistaken but direct. You said;

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ie. it is not sovereignly given to some and withheld from other

Now maybe you have not seen this verse recently? Jesus taught that exact thing. Do you see it?

Mt11:

²⁵ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

²⁶ Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

²⁷ All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

 

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Though I personally believe all the Bible promises that God gives regarding finding truth as we study, seek, continue in, etc. the Word of God. In NONE of those passages does God limit His offer of truth, except to open it up to those who are born of Him, with the Holy Spirit indwelling them (as 1 Corinthians 2 teaches). Truth, wisdom, and understanding is FREELY offered to those sincerely seeking it (ie. who persevere in His Word to find it).

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

Jerry, you will find we agree on more than we do not agree on. Careful, Calvinism will find you if you are in scripture as much as you post about.

 

[Jerry]

Not likely. I do not enjoy reading people's posts who continually twist the Word of God - or hyper-focus on one aspect and ignore all the rest. This says wisdom is free for the asking to whoever wants it and asks for it, not to who God sovereignly chooses to distribute it to.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

[Iconoclast]

On 5/20/2022 at 3:25 PM, Jerry said:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

God (ie. our Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ) was bruised on the cross by the Devil (but ultimately by our Father in Heaven when He bore our sins and died - but He arose again because the penalty was paid in full), Soon He will bruise Satan under His feet - and therefore under our feet, as we are in Him - when He comes back to judge and physically reign over this world.

Good post Jerry

I think the Romans passage is us spreading the gospel of the Kingdom worldwide.

21 hours ago, Jerry said:

Not likely. I do not enjoy reading people's posts who continually twist the Word of God - or hyper-focus on one aspect and ignore all the rest. This says wisdom is free for the asking to whoever wants it and asks for it, not to who God sovereignly chooses to distribute it to.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

It is not either or, but both.

[BrotherTony]

7 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Good post Jerry

I think the Romans passage is us spreading the gospel of the Kingdom worldwide.

It is not either or, but both.

Again, your take and twist of Scripture. 

[Iconoclast]

4 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Again, your take and twist of Scripture. 

Each person comments.

I comment on the thread, you comment on me offering nothing on the thread. 

Why not try and show what you think is a twist?

 

[BrotherTony]

7 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

Each person comments.

I comment on the thread, you comment on me offering nothing on the thread. 

Why not try and show what you think is a twist?

 

Again, a distortion of the truth. Some of us know that you believe you have a private interpretation of the Bible. There are continued insinuations of how ignorant those of us who don't agree with you on these forums are...ridiculous on your part. Suggestion? Why dont you find a forum that will be your own private echo chamber?  Now, why not you stop prevaricating and start telling the truth, Iconoclast???? Might be a refreshing change for once.