THE Great BLESSING OF ELECTION

[BrotherTony]

2 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Maybe you could go over Jn. 6:37-44 and explain what it means?

All means All....

All the Father gives shall come, no more, no less.

John 12:32,And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 

ALL MEANS ALL...

Matthew 28:18-20...All power was given to Christ after his ressurection. He and the Father are one. So, therefore he can draw men to himself...Refer back to John 12:32

Let's look at vs. 40 in the passage you jump to...... 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That could be ANYONE...not just what you call "the elect."  

Election ISN'T a blessing. If salvation is FORCED on someone, then it's not salvation, it's slavery.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

5 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

The ALL that we need to be concerned about is the  ALL found in Jn6:37 -44.

Ah yes, John 6:37-44 according to the Calvinistic system of belief.

5 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

In verse 37....the elect Children are given to the Son before the world was.

False (by adding to Scripture what is not there).  In John 6:37 our Lord Jesus Christ stated, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."  In this verse Jesus said nothing at all about the time "before the world was."  In fact, in His statement Jesus employed the present tense verbs "giveth" and "cometh," not past tense verbs.

5 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

The unwilling sinner is made willing as Psalm 110 speaks of.

False (by changing what Scripture actually says).  The opening portion of Psalm 110:3 reads, "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power."  It does NOT say that they are "made" willing, nor does it say anything about them being "unwilling."

5 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

As people seek to refute this teaching that is not refutable....they weakly jump out of the passage and attempt to  suggest in 12:32 which does not in any way blend into the context of the giving by the Father.

False.  I have no need to leave the context of John 6:35-47 in order to combat the Calvinistic viewpoint thereof.

So, what do we learn from what it actually teaches?

John 6:35 -- "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."  From this verse we are able to discern that in this context "coming to Christ" is equivalent to "believing on Christ."

John 6:37 -- "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."  From this verse we learn that God the Father gives a certain group of individuals to God the Son.  Furthermore, we learn that "all" (every single individual) of the group that God the Father gives to God the Son actually and certainly do come to/believe on God the Son.  Finally, we learn that God the Son will "in no wise cast out," but will certain receive," anyone who comes to/believes on Him.  Even so, if we were to put these truths in a logical sequence, we would have the following:

1.  God the Father gives some unto God the Son.
2.  ALL that God the Father gives actually and certainly come to/believe on God the Son.
3.  God the Son does not reject, but definitely receives any who come to/believe on Him.

John 6:38-39 -- "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."  Herein we learn that God the Son does not reject, but definitely receives any who come to/believe on Him so as to be in direct obedience to God the Father's will.  Furthermore, we learn that God the Son has been assigned by God the Father not to lose even a single one of those whom God the Father gives to him.  Finally, we learn that in obedience to God the Father's will God the Son will certainly raise up again at the last day (in the resurrection) every single one whom God the Father gives Him.  Even so, if we were to add these truths to our logical sequence, we would now have the following:

1.  God the Father gives some unto God the Son.
2.  ALL that God the Father gives actually and certainly come to/believe on God the Son.
3.  God the Son does not reject, but definitely receives any who come to/believe on Him.
4.  God the Son will not lose, but will keep every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.
5.  God the Son will certainly raise up again in the resurrection every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.

John 6:40 -- "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."  Herein we learn that every single one who believes on/comes to God the Son receives everlasting life.  Furthermore, we have the truth repeated that God the Son will certainly raise every single one of them up at the last day (in the resurrection).  Even so, in our logical sequence, we now have the following:

1.  God the Father gives some unto God the Son.
2.  ALL that God the Father gives actually and certainly come to/believe on God the Son.
3.  God the Son does not reject, but definitely receives any who come to/believe on Him.
4.  Every single one who believes on/comes to God the Son receives everlasting life.
5.  God the Son will not lose, but will keep every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.
6.  God the Son will certainly raise up again in the resurrection every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.

At this point our logical sequence looks very promising for the Calvinistic system of belief; for at this point the sequence begins with God the Father's giving some unto God the Son.  This certainly appears to indicate that divine election begins the process and is the very means by which individuals come to/believe on God the Son.  However, in John 6:43-47 our Lord Jesus Christ revealed more about the process and about God the Father's work in the process.

John 6:43-44 -- "Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."  Herein we learn that no human sinner has any ability whatsoever in themselves to come unto/believe on God the Son.  On the other hand, we learn that the ability for a lost human sinner to come unto/believe on God the Son is specifically granted by God the Father's gracious work of drawing.  Finally, we have the truth repeated that God the Son will certainly raise up at the last day (in the resurrection) every single one who comes to/believes on Him. 

Yet these truths leave us with some questions.  What does it mean for God the Father to perform His gracious work of drawing upon a lost sinner's heart?  Furthermore, upon whom all does God the Father perform this gracious work of drawing?  In order to relieve these question, our Lord Jesus Christ provided an explanation in John 6:45.

John 6:45 -- "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.  Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."  Herein our Lord Jesus Christ initiated his explanation with a quote from Isaiah 54:13, that as God the Son He altered for the present context of John 6:35-47.  Therefore, we learn that "all" experience God the Father's work of teaching.  Furthermore, we learn that each individual is responsible to hear and learn of God the Father from His work of teaching.  Finally, we learn that each individual who does actually hear and learn of God the Father from His work of teaching will certainly come to/believe on God the Son.  Even so, if we consider just the logical sequence of this verse, we have the following:

1.  God the Father performs His work of teaching "all."
2.  Each individual is responsible to hear and to learn of God the Father from His work of teaching.
3.  Those who actually hear and learn of God the Father from His work of teaching certainly come to/believe on God the Son.

Now, since contextually John 6:45 is presented as an explanation for the truth of John 6:44, we must ask how the explanation of John 6:45 relates to the truth of God the Father's gracious work of drawing.  Since in John 6:44 the activity of God the Father is His work of drawing, and since in John 6:45 the activity of God the Father is His work of teaching, we may conclude that in these two verses these two elements are to viewed as contextually equivalent.  Even so, in our logical sequence of these two verses together, we would have the following:

1.  God the Father performs His work of teaching/drawing "all."
2.  Each individual is responsible to hear and to learn of God the Father from His work of teaching.
3.  Those who actually hear and learn of God the Father from His work of teaching certainly come to/believe on God the Son.
4.  God the Son will certainly raise up again in the resurrection every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.

So then, how does the sequence of these two verses fit with the earlier sequence of John 6:35-40?  Since point #3 of this sequence concerns those who come to/believe on God the Son, and since point #2 of the earlier sequence concerns those who come to/believe on God the Son, we may recognize the merge of these two sequences at this point.  Furthermore, since John 6:37 defines all those who come to/believe on God the Son as all whom God the Father gives Him, and since John 6:45 defines all those who come to/believe on God the Son as everyone who actually hears and learns of God the Father from His work of teaching/drawing, we may recognize that all those whom God the Father gives to God the Son are all those who hear and learn of God the Father from His work of teaching/drawing.  Even so, we now have the following sequence:

1.  God the Father performs His work of teaching/drawing "all."
2.  Each individual is responsible to hear and to learn of God the Father from His work of teaching.
3.  All of those who hear and learn of God the Father from His work of teaching/drawing are the some whom God the Father gives to God the Son.
4.  ALL that God the Father gives actually and certainly come to/believe on God the Son.
5.  God the Son does not reject, but definitely receives any who come to/believe on Him.
6.  Every single one who believes on/comes to God the Son receives everlasting life.
7.  God the Son will not lose, but will keep every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.
8.  God the Son will certainly raise up again in the resurrection every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.

John 6:46-47 -- "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."  Herein we learn that although lost sinners must hear and learn of God the Father from His work of teaching/drawing, they do not actually see God the Father in any physical manner.  This reveals that the teaching/drawing work of God the Father is not a physical work upon the physical ear, but is a spiritual work upon the human heart.  Furthermore, we have the truth repeated that every single one who believes on/comes to God the Son receives everlasting life.

Now that we have considered all that our Lord Jesus Christ taught throughout the context of John 6:35-47, we recognize that the entire sequence does not begin with God the Father's giving some unto God the Son through a work of divine election.  Rather, we recognize that the entire sequence begins with God the Father's work of divine teaching/drawing, which He performs for the sake of "all."  Furthermore, we learn that individuals must respond aright to God the Father's work of teaching/drawing, by hearing and learning of Him, in order to be those whom God the Father gives unto God the Son.  (Not the Calvinistic system of belief after all.)

Edited May 20, 2022 by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar

[Jim_Alaska]

Well said and thought out Bro. Scott. Thank you for taking the time to post this in sequence, showing that the "election" of the Bible is not predicated on "predestination", which would be before the fact of salvation. What you have rightly shown is that instead of the elect being shown as such before their Salvation, they are indeed the elect because of Salvation.

The Calvinist position puts the cart before the horse, so-to-speak. They posture that since God elected the sinner he will be saved, when actually once he has been saved, he is then of the elect.

[Iconoclast]

5 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

That's YOUR interpretation of the Scripture. I believe Pastor Scott already gave another explanation. ALL MEANS ALL....Nowhere does it state, "Just the elect." 

 

Tony I asked for your understanding.

[Jim_Alaska]

Iconoclast Has anyone on this board agreed with your Calvinistic position?  No?  This should speak volumes, since the people on this board are Christians and every one that has responded to you has disagreed with your position.

Has it ever entered your mind that you just might be wrong?

[Jim_Alaska]

Iconoclast seemed to be an odd screen name, so I went looking for a definition, which I found very interesting. Based on this definition it would appear that he is here to attack those that do not hold to his beliefs, rather than seek Fellowship with like minded Christians.

i·con·o·clast

/īˈkänəˌklast/

noun
1. a person who attacks cherished beliefs or institutions.

[Iconoclast]

4 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Ah yes, John 6:37-44 according to the Calvinistic system of belief.

False (by adding to Scripture what is not there).  In John 6:37 our Lord Jesus Christ stated, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."  In this verse Jesus said nothing at all about the time "before the world was."  In fact, in His statement Jesus employed the present tense verbs "giveth" and "cometh," not past tense verbs.

False (by changing what Scripture actually says).  The opening portion of Psalm 110:3 reads, "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power."  It does NOT say that they are "made" willing, nor does it say anything about them being "unwilling."

False.  I have no need to leave the context of John 6:35-47 in order to combat the Calvinistic viewpoint thereof.

So, what do we learn from what it actually teaches?

John 6:35 -- "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."  From this verse we are able to discern that in this context "coming to Christ" is equivalent to "believing on Christ."

John 6:37 -- "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."  From this verse we learn that God the Father gives a certain group of individuals to God the Son.  Furthermore, we learn that "all" (every single individual) of the group that God the Father gives to God the Son actually and certainly do come to/believe on God the Son.  Finally, we learn that God the Son will "in no wise cast out," but will certain receive," anyone who comes to/believes on Him.  Even so, if we were to put these truths in a logical sequence, we would have the following:

1.  God the Father gives some unto God the Son.
2.  ALL that God the Father gives actually and certainly come to/believe on God the Son.
3.  God the Son does not reject, but definitely receives any who come to/believe on Him.

John 6:38-39 -- "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."  Herein we learn that God the Son does not reject, but definitely receives any who come to/believe on Him so as to be in direct obedience to God the Father's will.  Furthermore, we learn that God the Son has been assigned by God the Father not to lose even a single one of those whom God the Father gives to him.  Finally, we learn that in obedience to God the Father's will God the Son will certainly raise up again at the last day (in the resurrection) every single one whom God the Father gives Him.  Even so, if we were to add these truths to our logical sequence, we would now have the following:

1.  God the Father gives some unto God the Son.
2.  ALL that God the Father gives actually and certainly come to/believe on God the Son.
3.  God the Son does not reject, but definitely receives any who come to/believe on Him.
4.  God the Son will not lose, but will keep every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.
5.  God the Son will certainly raise up again in the resurrection every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.

John 6:40 -- "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."  Herein we learn that every single one who believes on/comes to God the Son receives everlasting life.  Furthermore, we have the truth repeated that God the Son will certainly raise every single one of them up at the last day (in the resurrection).  Even so, in our logical sequence, we now have the following:

1.  God the Father gives some unto God the Son.
2.  ALL that God the Father gives actually and certainly come to/believe on God the Son.
3.  God the Son does not reject, but definitely receives any who come to/believe on Him.
4.  Every single one who believes on/comes to God the Son receives everlasting life.
5.  God the Son will not lose, but will keep every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.
6.  God the Son will certainly raise up again in the resurrection every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.

At this point our logical sequence looks very promising for the Calvinistic system of belief; for at this point the sequence begins with God the Father's giving some unto God the Son.  This certainly appears to indicate that divine election begins the process and is the very means by which individuals come to/believe on God the Son.  However, in John 6:43-47 our Lord Jesus Christ revealed more about the process and about God the Father's work in the process.

John 6:43-44 -- "Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."  Herein we learn that no human sinner has any ability whatsoever in themselves to come unto/believe on God the Son.  On the other hand, we learn that the ability for a lost human sinner to come unto/believe on God the Son is specifically granted by God the Father's gracious work of drawing.  Finally, we have the truth repeated that God the Son will certainly raise up at the last day (in the resurrection) every single one who comes to/believes on Him. 

Yet these truths leave us with some questions.  What does it mean for God the Father to perform His gracious work of drawing upon a lost sinner's heart?  Furthermore, upon whom all does God the Father perform this gracious work of drawing?  In order to relieve these question, our Lord Jesus Christ provided an explanation in John 6:45.

John 6:45 -- "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.  Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."  Herein our Lord Jesus Christ initiated his explanation with a quote from Isaiah 54:13, that as God the Son He altered for the present context of John 6:35-47.  Therefore, we learn that "all" experience God the Father's work of teaching.  Furthermore, we learn that each individual is responsible to hear and learn of God the Father from His work of teaching.  Finally, we learn that each individual who does actually hear and learn of God the Father from His work of teaching will certainly come to/believe on God the Son.  Even so, if we consider just the logical sequence of this verse, we have the following:

1.  God the Father performs His work of teaching "all."
2.  Each individual is responsible to hear and to learn of God the Father from His work of teaching.
3.  Those who actually hear and learn of God the Father from His work of teaching certainly come to/believe on God the Son.

Now, since contextually John 6:45 is presented as an explanation for the truth of John 6:44, we must ask how the explanation of John 6:45 relates to the truth of God the Father's gracious work of drawing.  Since in John 6:44 the activity of God the Father is His work of drawing, and since in John 6:45 the activity of God the Father is His work of teaching, we may conclude that in these two verses these two elements are to viewed as contextually equivalent.  Even so, in our logical sequence of these two verses together, we would have the following:

1.  God the Father performs His work of teaching/drawing "all."
2.  Each individual is responsible to hear and to learn of God the Father from His work of teaching.
3.  Those who actually hear and learn of God the Father from His work of teaching certainly come to/believe on God the Son.
4.  God the Son will certainly raise up again in the resurrection every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.

So then, how does the sequence of these two verses fit with the earlier sequence of John 6:35-40?  Since point #3 of this sequence concerns those who come to/believe on God the Son, and since point #2 of the earlier sequence concerns those who come to/believe on God the Son, we may recognize the merge of these two sequences at this point.  Furthermore, since John 6:37 defines all those who come to/believe on God the Son as all whom God the Father gives Him, and since John 6:45 defines all those who come to/believe on God the Son as everyone who actually hears and learns of God the Father from His work of teaching/drawing, we may recognize that all those whom God the Father gives to God the Son are all those who hear and learn of God the Father from His work of teaching/drawing.  Even so, we now have the following sequence:

1.  God the Father performs His work of teaching/drawing "all."
2.  Each individual is responsible to hear and to learn of God the Father from His work of teaching.
3.  All of those who hear and learn of God the Father from His work of teaching/drawing are the some whom God the Father gives to God the Son.
4.  ALL that God the Father gives actually and certainly come to/believe on God the Son.
5.  God the Son does not reject, but definitely receives any who come to/believe on Him.
6.  Every single one who believes on/comes to God the Son receives everlasting life.
7.  God the Son will not lose, but will keep every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.
8.  God the Son will certainly raise up again in the resurrection every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.

John 6:46-47 -- "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."  Herein we learn that although lost sinners must hear and learn of God the Father from His work of teaching/drawing, they do not actually see God the Father in any physical manner.  This reveals that the teaching/drawing work of God the Father is not a physical work upon the physical ear, but is a spiritual work upon the human heart.  Furthermore, we have the truth repeated that every single one who believes on/comes to God the Son receives everlasting life.

Now that we have considered all that our Lord Jesus Christ taught throughout the context of John 6:35-47, we recognize that the entire sequence does not begin with God the Father's giving some unto God the Son through a work of divine election.  Rather, we recognize that the entire sequence begins with God the Father's work of divine teaching/drawing, which He performs for the sake of "all."  Furthermore, we learn that individuals must respond aright to God the Father's work of teaching/drawing, by hearing and learning of Him, in order to be those whom God the Father gives unto God the Son.  (Not the Calvinistic system of belief after all.)

This is nothing but Pastor Scotts story time and complete falsehood, but if anyone wants this biblical denial they can have it.

Every non Cal tries to distort this passage , they go to Isa54 and make a story up how this happens just as Scott has done, then pervert the Actual teaching as written in Gods word,

Look at this falsehood in Scotts story

Quote

 

1.  God the Father performs His work of teaching/drawing "all."

 

No...Jesus says all the Father gives shall come to Him. It does not say All men learn of the Father first then they figure out how to believe, then they come,

A sad twisting of scripture. These are the lengths non cals go to to deny truth,

2 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Well said and thought out Bro. Scott. Thank you for taking the time to post this in sequence, showing that the "election" of the Bible is not predicated on "predestination", which would be before the fact of salvation. What you have rightly shown is that instead of the elect being shown as such before their Salvation, they are indeed the elect because of Salvation.

The Calvinist position puts the cart before the horse, so-to-speak. They posture that since God elected the sinner he will be saved, when actually once he has been saved, he is then of the elect.

No Jim...sinners do not elect themselves. This is a falsehood.This is a direct denial of scripture.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

24 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

No...Jesus says all the Father gives shall come to Him.

Indeed, He did say that in John 6:37.  Indeed, I did acknowledge this truth in my explanation of the passage and in my concluding sequence from the passage:

5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  God the Father performs His work of teaching/drawing "all."
2.  Each individual is responsible to hear and to learn of God the Father from His work of teaching.
3.  All of those who hear and learn of God the Father from His work of teaching/drawing are the some whom God the Father gives to God the Son.
4.  ALL that God the Father gives actually and certainly come to/believe on God the Son. 
5.  God the Son does not reject, but definitely receives any who come to/believe on Him.
6.  Every single one who believes on/comes to God the Son receives everlasting life.
7.  God the Son will not lose, but will keep every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.
8.  God the Son will certainly raise up again in the resurrection every single one whom God the Father gives Him, and thus who come to/believe on Him.

24 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

It does not say All men learn of the Father first . . .

John 6:45 -- "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.  Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."  

Our Lord Jesus Christ clearly taught in this verse that "all" shall be taught of God.  He also clearly taught in this verse that it is an individual who first hears and learns of the Father from His work of teaching that comes unto/believes on Him for salvation.  Such is not a fabrication.  Rather, it is what our Lord Himself clearly taught.  Denying this is denying what our Lord Jesus Christ clearly taught in this verse.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar

[Iconoclast]

23 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Iconoclast Has anyone on this board agreed with your Calvinistic position?  No?  This should speak volumes, since the people on this board are Christians and every one that has responded to you has disagreed with your position.

Has it ever entered your mind that you just might be wrong?

Only a few people have attempted to interact with the posts. A few like you have agreed with the false teaching of Pastor Scott. You have not gone line by line on any of my posts. I do not think you can based on your posts. Most have been quite hostile and mean spirited.I have been corrected by Godly pastors in times past and I welcomed biblical correction.

You and others might be correct on other topics, but you are seriously deficient and do not understand the theology taught by Jesus and the Apostles that is known by Calvinism..

Jim...you asked me this question...

Quote

Has it ever entered your mind that you just might be wrong?

Let me ask you Jim....for you to be correct that would mean Spurgeon, Boyce, Dagg, all

the reformers, all the puritans, modern day Pastors like John MacArthur, Steve Lawson, are all wrong???

Millions of confessional Baptists are wrong?

Why, because two or three men do not understand the teaching,

So, we could ask each other such questions, or we can learn from each other. Do you agree that might be a better way to go.

I chose the name Iconoclast as I have been on boards that have Roman Catholics, eastern orthodox, Episcopal,and other kinds of people so I thought they would know where I was coming from.

[Iconoclast]

15 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, He did say that in John 6:37.  Indeed, I did acknowledge this truth in my explanation of the passage and in my concluding sequence from the passage:

John 6:45 -- "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.  Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."  

Our Lord Jesus Christ clearly taught in this verse that "all" shall be taught of God.  He also clearly taught in this verse that it is an individual who first hears and learns of the Father from His work of teaching that comes unto/believes on Him for salvation.  Such is not a fabrication.  Rather, it is what our Lord Himself clearly taught.  Denying this is denying what our Lord Jesus Christ clearly taught in this verse.

I know all about Isa.54 and the context of gentile inclusion is being referenced...not the story you made up,lol

54 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord.

² Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

³ For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

⁴ Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

⁵ For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

⁶ For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

⁷ For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

⁸ In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.

⁹ For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

¹⁰ For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

¹¹ O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

¹² And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.

¹³ And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

¹⁴ In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

¹⁵ Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

¹⁶ Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

¹⁷ No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

I think you have never really studied these truths.

By the way, I never deny what Jesus teaches anywhere despite you suggesting such.

I deny your false teaching all day long however as you are set to deny truth presented to you post after post.

What you offer is fragmented thoughts that are man centered and not Christ centered.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Iconoclast
addition

[Iconoclast]

3 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Well said and thought out Bro. Scott. Thank you for taking the time to post this in sequence, showing that the "election" of the Bible is not predicated on "predestination", which would be before the fact of salvation. What you have rightly shown is that instead of the elect being shown as such before their Salvation, they are indeed the elect because of Salvation.

The Calvinist position puts the cart before the horse, so-to-speak. They posture that since God elected the sinner he will be saved, when actually once he has been saved, he is then of the elect.

Could you identify any reputable Systematic Theology that agrees with your definition of Election? 

I do not know of Any,

Commentators do not agree with you anywhere.

[Iconoclast]

A.W.Pink;

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me" (John 6:37 ). Here the Lord speaks of a definite company which have been given to Him by the Father. Nor is this the only place where He makes mention of this people. In John 17:0 He refers to their seven times over. In verse 2 He says, "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." So again in verse 6 He says, "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: Thine they were, and thou gavest them me." And again in verse 9 He declares, "I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." See also verses 11, 12, 24. Whom those are that the Father gave to Christ we are told in Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." Those given to Christ were God’s elect, singled out for this marvellous honor before the foundation of the world: "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation" (2 Thessalonians 2:13 ). But let us notice the exact connection in our passage wherein Christ refers to the elect.

 

In verse 36 we find our Lord saying to those who had no heart for Him, "ye also have seen me, and believe not." Was He, then, disheartened? Far from it. And why not? Ah! mark how the Son of God, here the lowly Servant of Jehovah, encourages Himself. He immediately adds, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me." What a lesson is this for every under shepherd. Here is the true haven of rest for the heart of every Christ worker. Your message may be slighted by the crowd, and as you see how many there are who "believe not" it may appear that your labor is in vain. Nevertheless "the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are his" (2 Timothy 2:19 ). The eternal purpose of the Almighty cannot fail; the sovereign will of the Lord Most High cannot be frustrated. All, every one, that the Father gave to the Son before the foundation of the world "shall come to him." The Devil himself cannot keep one of them away. So take heart fellow-worker. You may seem to be sowing the Seed at random, but God will see to it that part of it falls onto ground which He has prepared. The realization of the invincibility of the eternal counsels of God will give you a calmness, a poise, a courage, a perseverance which nothing else can. "Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord" (1 Corinthians 15:58 ).

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me." But while this is very blessed, it is solemnly tragic and deeply humbling. How humiliating for us, that in the presence of incarnate life and love in the person of the Lord of glory, no one would have come to Him, none would have benefitted by His mission, had there not been those who were given to Him by the Father, and on whose coming He could, therefore, reckon. Man’s depravity is so entire, his enmity so great, that in every instance, his will would have resisted and rejected Christ, had not the Father determined that His Son should have some as the trophies of His victory and the reward of His coming down from heaven. Alas that our deadness to such love should have called forth such sighs as seem to breathe in these very words of Christ!

"And him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37 ). Let us not miss (as is so commonly done) the connection between this clause and the one which precedes it. "Him that cometh to me" is explained by "all that the Father giveth me." None would come to Him unless the Father had first predestinated that they should, for it is only "as many as were ordained to eternal life" that believe (Acts 13:48 ). Each one that the Father had given to Christ in eternity past, "cometh" to Him in time comes as a lost sinner to be saved; comes having nothing, that he may receive everything.

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me" (John 6:38 ). This is most instructive. The force of it is this: Those whom the Father had given the Son all of them would come to Him. It was no longer the Son in His essential glory, quickening whom He would, as in verse 21, but the Son incarnate, the "Son of man" (John 6:27 ), receiving those the Father "drew" to Him (John 6:44 )! "Therefore be it who it might, He would in no wise cast him out: enemy, scoffer, Jew or Gentile, they would not come if the Father had not sent them" (J.N.D.). Christ was here to do the Father’s will. Thus does Christ assure His own that He will save to the end all whom the Father had given Him.

"For I came down from heaven not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." How greatly does this enhance the value of the precious words at the close of the preceding verse, when we see that our coming to Christ is not attributed to man’s fickle will, but as the effect of the Father’s drawing to the Savior each one given to Him in the counsels of that Father’s love before the foundation of the world! So, too, the reception of them is not merely because of Christ’s compassion for the lost, but as the obedient Servant of the Father’s will, He welcomes each one brought to Him brought by the unseen drawings of the Father’s love. Thus our security rests not upon anything in us or from us, but upon the Father’s choice and the Son’s obedient love!

[Pastor Scott Markle]

18 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

I know all about Isa.54 and the context of gentile inclusion is being referenced...not the story you made up,lol

54 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord.

² Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

³ For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

⁴ Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

⁵ For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

⁶ For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

⁷ For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

⁸ In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.

⁹ For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

¹⁰ For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

¹¹ O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

¹² And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.

¹³ And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

¹⁴ In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

¹⁵ Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

¹⁶ Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

¹⁷ No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

No, Isaiah 54 is about the restoration of Israel by the hand of the Lord their Redeemer.  The only reference to the Gentiles in the entire chapter is in verse 3; and that verse does not say that the Gentiles will be included with Israel, but that they will be inherited by Israel.  

Nevertheless, the ONLY portion of Isaiah 54 that our Lord Jesus Christ quoted in John 6:45 is the first half of verse 13 -- "And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord."  In the context of Isaiah 54, this clearly refers to all the children of the Israelites.  However, in John 6:45 our Lord Jesus Christ divinely changed the quote by dropping the specific reference to the Israelites' children -- "And they shall be all taught of God."  

Now, in my explanation of John 6:35-47, I did not make up any story at all about Isaiah 54.  I simply pointed out that our Lord Jesus Christ quoted from Isaiah 54:13, but that He divinely altered that quote for the context of John 6:35-47 itself.

6 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

John 6:45 -- "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.  Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."  Herein our Lord Jesus Christ initiated his explanation with a quote from Isaiah 54:13, that as God the Son He altered for the present context of John 6:35-47. 

 

[Iconoclast]

As said above, the unregenerate sinner is so depraved that with an unchanged heart and mind he will never come to Christ. And the change which is absolutely essential is one which God alone can produce. It is, therefore, by Divine "drawing" that any one comes to Christ. What is this "drawing"? We answer, It is the power of the Holy Spirit overcoming the self-righteousness of the sinner, and convicting him of his lost condition. It is the Holy Spirit awakening within him a sense of need. It is the power of the Holy Spirit overcoming the pride of the natural man, so that he is ready to come to Christ as an empty-handed beggar. It is the Holy Spirit creating within him an hunger for the bread of life.

"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God" (John 6:45 ). Our Lord confirms what He had just said by an appeal to the Scriptures. The reference is to Isaiah 54:13 : "And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord." This serves to explain, in part at least, the meaning of "draw." Those drawn are they who are "taught of God." And who are these, so highly favored? The quotation from Isaiah 54:0 tells us: they are God’s "children"; His own, His elect. Notice carefully how our Lord quoted Isaiah 54:13 . He simply said, "And they shall be all taught of God." This helps us to define the "all" in other passages, like John 12:32 : "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto Me." The "all" does not mean all of humanity, but all of God’s children, all His elect.

"Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me" (John 6:45 ). This also throws light on the "drawing" of the previous verse. Those drawn are they who have "heard" and "learned of the Father." That is to say, God has given them an ear to hear and a heart to perceive. It is parallel with what we get in 1 Corinthians 1:23 , 1 Corinthians 1:24 : "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness: But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." "Called" here refers to the effectual and irresistible call of God. It is a call which is heard with the inward ear. It is a call which is instinct with Divine power, drawing its object to Christ Himself.

[Iconoclast]

21 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

No, Isaiah 54 is about the restoration of Israel by the hand of the Lord their Redeemer.  The only reference to the Gentiles in the entire chapter is in verse 3; and that verse does not say that the Gentiles will be included with Israel, but that they will be inherited by Israel.  

Nevertheless, the ONLY portion of Isaiah 54 that our Lord Jesus Christ quoted in John 6:45 is the first half of verse 13 -- "And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord."  In the context of Isaiah 54, this clearly refers to all the children of the Israelites.  However, in John 6:45 our Lord Jesus Christ divinely changed the quote by dropping the specific reference to the Israelites' children -- "And they shall be all taught of God."  

Now, in my explanation of John 6:35-47, I did not make up any story at all about Isaiah 54.  I simply pointed out that our Lord Jesus Christ quoted from Isaiah 54:13, but that He divinely altered that quote for the context of John 6:35-47 itself.

 

The whole second half of Isaiah is about the Covenant work of the SERVANT OF THE LORD.

It is loaded with Gentile Inclusion.Thinks makes me doubt you went to bible school.

How can you not know this?

 

 

49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

² And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

³ And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

⁴ Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

⁵ And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

⁶ And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

⁷ Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

⁸ Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

 

 

 

Isaiah 60

 

King James Version

 

 

60 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.

² For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

³ And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

 

Isa. 54 is quoted in Gal4 also showing gentile inclusion;

²² For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

²³ But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

²⁴ Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

²⁵ For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

²⁶ But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

²⁷ For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

²⁸ Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

²⁹ But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

³⁰ Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

³¹ So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Iconoclast