Church businesses …

[TheGloryLand]

17 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

Because, AGAIN, it's up to every AUTONOMOUS church to decide for themselves what to pay their pastors. It's not up to us on a virtual board to try and dictate their terms to a possible or present pastor. I don't agree that pastors shouldn't have more than just a salary, no matter how large it is, UNLESS THE CHURCH agrees and said pastor/candidate agree to those terms.

So you will prefer a package over a fair salary. Package $25,000 a home to live in and a car to use, over salary of 70,000 a year. Okay, not bad for a small church. Don’t get mad brother Tony, I’m just trying to figure things out here.

[BrotherTony]

3 hours ago, E Morales said:

So you will prefer a package over a fair salary. Package $25,000 a home to live in and a car to use, over salary of 70,000 a year. Okay, not bad for a small church. Don’t get mad brother Tony, I’m just trying to figure things out here.

For starters, that's not what I said. I stated, and ti should be pretty clear, it's up to the CHURCH...AUTONOMOUS...to set the terms. I don't believe it's up to us to set their terms. We, if we're members of said church, can voice our opinion in the business meeting, and the church as a whole has to make the decision. Personally, I believe that pastors in a church of a good size should be giving their pastors more than a salary, unless that salary is sizeable enough to cover some of the costs he would incur. Remember, he IS an EMPLOYEE of the church, though he is paid to be it's shepherd.

[Pastorj]

The IRS allows clergy to declare any amount of their salary as a housing allowance as long as they spend that amount and it was declared in the church business meeting or notes.

This saves the pastor thousands of dollars and in Many churches allows the pastor to be full-time, rather than having to work.  You have to look at the full compensation package to understand what a member of the clergy is being paid 

[HappyChristian]

So regarding taxes...pastors actually can be exempt from paying taxes if they so desire. There is an exemption form to fill out. Most ministers take advantage of this, which is quite legal and moral, AND up to the individual pastor and church.(heh -thanks, Pastorj...I was saying some of this same stuff so I deleted since you put it so succinctly.

As to "benefit packages" - why on earth should a church NOT give their pastor benefits, IF THAT IS HOW THEY WISH TO SPEND THEIR MONEY?  The money our members (and true of every individual, local church) give is for THEM to decide, not for anyone outside of the membership (even if someone is regularly attending and gives money, if they aren't members they have no say).   

I think mayhap some of your thoughts come from the mega-churches and the pastors who are living a life of luxury at the expense of their members. This is indeed an issue, and I think has contributed to the idea that all pastors are greedy. But as has been said several times, the pay that any individual church decides to give to the pastor they've asked to come lead them is up to that individual church. Many churches do provide housing, but it is part of the salary. Many churches pay electric bills, etc. But it is also part of the salary. Not actually a "benefit."

I know that our members, as few as they are, would pay my husband a great deal more than he is being paid, and they would do much more (I forgot that two years ago they instituted a gas allowance...not a lot of money, but it has been a great help to us) for him (and me by extension) if they could. Very small in numbers but very big in heart and generosity, that is our church.

(Oh, @E Morales, your comment about smartphones reminded me - our church pays for my phone bill. I had been without a phone for several years after we moved here, but some of the ladies were concerned about getting in touch with me - even though we have a landline. So they brought it up in one of our meetings and the entire church voted to take care of it. That is a benefit for me, for sure. And it is only because I'm married to the pastor. And I greatly appreciate it. I don't consider it overdoing, nor do the members.)

Churches are not cookie cutter. In other words, they are all different. In size, in scope. Pastors have different personalities. The areas of churches are different (some areas are very open to attending church, others - like ours - don't see the need at all because, well, they can have church out in the beautiful scenery we have here...yes, we have been told that a multitude of times). And the fact that they are all different is really a wonderful thing. A pastor who is less of a "plodder" than my husband would get discouraged in an area like ours and likely leave.  Etc.

And that difference includes the money of the individual churches and how said money is budgeted. 

[TheGloryLand]

10 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

So regarding taxes...pastors actually can be exempt from paying taxes if they so desire. There is an exemption form to fill out. Most ministers take advantage of this, which is quite legal and moral, AND up to the individual pastor and church.(heh -thanks, Pastorj...I was saying some of this same stuff so I deleted since you put it so succinctly.

As to "benefit packages" - why on earth should a church NOT give their pastor benefits, IF THAT IS HOW THEY WISH TO SPEND THEIR MONEY?  The money our members (and true of every individual, local church) give is for THEM to decide, not for anyone outside of the membership (even if someone is regularly attending and gives money, if they aren't members they have no say).   

I think mayhap some of your thoughts come from the mega-churches and the pastors who are living a life of luxury at the expense of their members. This is indeed an issue, and I think has contributed to the idea that all pastors are greedy. But as has been said several times, the pay that any individual church decides to give to the pastor they've asked to come lead them is up to that individual church. Many churches do provide housing, but it is part of the salary. Many churches pay electric bills, etc. But it is also part of the salary. Not actually a "benefit."

I know that our members, as few as they are, would pay my husband a great deal more than he is being paid, and they would do much more (I forgot that two years ago they instituted a gas allowance...not a lot of money, but it has been a great help to us) for him (and me by extension) if they could. Very small in numbers but very big in heart and generosity, that is our church.

(Oh, @E Morales, your comment about smartphones reminded me - our church pays for my phone bill. I had been without a phone for several years after we moved here, but some of the ladies were concerned about getting in touch with me - even though we have a landline. So they brought it up in one of our meetings and the entire church voted to take care of it. That is a benefit for me, for sure. And it is only because I'm married to the pastor. And I greatly appreciate it. I don't consider it overdoing, nor do the members.)

Churches are not cookie cutter. In other words, they are all different. In size, in scope. Pastors have different personalities. The areas of churches are different (some areas are very open to attending church, others - like ours - don't see the need at all because, well, they can have church out in the beautiful scenery we have here...yes, we have been told that a multitude of times). And the fact that they are all different is really a wonderful thing. A pastor who is less of a "plodder" than my husband would get discouraged in an area like ours and likely leave.  Etc.

And that difference includes the money of the individual churches and how said money is budgeted. 

Thank you for sharing your experience and as I mentioned above I am glad everything is working well which I believe can be done right. But if I was a member of your church I would prefer to pay you and your husband a well and decent salary, so you can choose where you want to live, what do you want to drive, and even save money for your retirement. Independent Baptist preachers don’t need to live a poor life, I’m not saying you are poor, I’m just saying you have the right to send your children to college too. I believe by giving you a small benefit package can keep you and your family from progressing in life. Even as something simple as to move, you won’t be able to save enough money. This is not in all the cases, like if yours you are satisfied 

[HappyChristian]

9 hours ago, E Morales said:

Thank you for sharing your experience and as I mentioned above I am glad everything is working well which I believe can be done right. But if I was a member of your church I would prefer to pay you and your husband a well and decent salary, so you can choose where you want to live, what do you want to drive, and even save money for your retirement. Independent Baptist preachers don’t need to live a poor life, I’m not saying you are poor, I’m just saying you have the right to send your children to college too. I believe by giving you a small benefit package can keep you and your family from progressing in life. Even as something simple as to move, you won’t be able to save enough money. This is not in all the cases, like if yours you are satisfied 

Our church does not pay our housing...we take care of that. We chose - via God's leading - where we live. We also choose what we want to drive. We have another vehicle that hubs drives mostly (the car the church bought is for church use or emergency use if our van is down). If you were a member of our church you could have voted against buying the car, but you would have been the only one. lol

We aren't poor nor are we rich. God takes care of us, and my hubs gets a sufficient salary from the church. And we are progressing fine in life...monies/gifts/benefits from the church have nothing to do with our progressing in life. And as to our children - our son is in his 30s and paid his own way through his education, like we did. I'm sorry, but I don't agree that it's a "right" to send our children to college via the church paying "enough" money for someone to do so. IMO, that's overreach of pastoral pay.  Kids need to get jobs, save money, and pay their own way. Yep, I'm one of those hardnosed people (not to say we wouldn't help our ADULT child in college if need be - but most certainly we would never pay the way and allow said ADULT child to slough off working and paying his/her bill - that is teaching them to be irresponsible, and that is unbiblical).

Any pastor who goes into the ministry with $$ on his mind should just not go into the ministry. God provides for His servants. Yes, the laborer is worthy of his hire, and he should be paid if it's possible. Not all times is it possible, and so God works things out different ways (some with pastors getting a second job, some with other churches supporting until the church can be indigenous).  I think it's nice that you would like to provide a pastor with sufficient income to pay for everything they want, but that isn't true even of a secular job.  Money is only a means to an end. And not always available. Trusting God works much better...

[BrotherTony]

12 minutes ago, HappyChristian said:

Our church does not pay our housing...we take care of that. We chose - via God's leading - where we live. We also choose what we want to drive. We have another vehicle that hubs drives mostly (the car the church bought is for church use or emergency use if our van is down). If you were a member of our church you could have voted against buying the car, but you would have been the only one. lol

We aren't poor nor are we rich. God takes care of us, and my hubs gets a sufficient salary from the church. And we are progressing fine in life...monies/gifts/benefits from the church have nothing to do with our progressing in life. And as to our children - our son is in his 30s and paid his own way through his education, like we did. I'm sorry, but I don't agree that it's a "right" to send our children to college via the church paying "enough" money for someone to do so. IMO, that's overreach of pastoral pay.  Kids need to get jobs, save money, and pay their own way. Yep, I'm one of those hardnosed people (not to say we wouldn't help our ADULT child in college if need be - but most certainly we would never pay the way and allow said ADULT child to slough off working and paying his/her bill - that is teaching them to be irresponsible, and that is unbiblical).

Any pastor who goes into the ministry with $$ on his mind should just not go into the ministry. God provides for His servants. Yes, the laborer is worthy of his hire, and he should be paid if it's possible. Not all times is it possible, and so God works things out different ways (some with pastors getting a second job, some with other churches supporting until the church can be indigenous).  I think it's nice that you would like to provide a pastor with sufficient income to pay for everything they want, but that isn't true even of a secular job.  Money is only a means to an end. And not always available. Trusting God works much better...

I'm so thankful that my wife and I decided years ago that should I ever pastor a church, I would also work a full-time job as well. I know many bi-vocational church pastors, and they do a wonderful job. I know of very few who don't take their pastoral duties seriously. Some ARE in the ministry for money, and this is disconcerting to me. But, these types seem to be few and far between. I know when I used to fill in for churches when they were in need of a pastor, I would turn my pay back over to the church, either to a missions program or to the youth program if the church had one. Upt until 21 years ago when I had to go on disabilty, I worked a full-time job with any pastoral duties I had. I've never regretted it.

[TheGloryLand]

What does it mean when a person says, my pastor works and gets paid full-time. How many work hours are there for a full-time pastor or preacher. My worldly view of full-time is 40 hours. Full-time pastor should work at lest 40 hours?

[Napsterdad]

On 4/4/2024 at 8:49 AM, TheGloryLand said:

What does it mean when a person says, my pastor works and gets paid full-time. How many work hours are there for a full-time pastor or preacher. My worldly view of full-time is 40 hours. Full-time pastor should work at lest 40 hours?

Every Pastor of churches I have been a member put in far more than 40 hours a week. Most pastor's I've known you usually had to make an appointment weeks in advance to get an opportunity just to have them over for dinner. Had these pastors gotten paid an honest hourly wage for all the hours they actually put in a week the church probably couldn't have sustained them.

[Pastor Matt]

I must not be a good pastor, I only put in 20-30 hours a week into pastoring 

[TheGloryLand]

1 hour ago, Pastor Matt said:

I must not be a good pastor, I only put in 20-30 hours a week into pastoring 

That's ok, you can always catch up. like they say, there is always room for improving.

[HappyChristian]

On 4/4/2024 at 5:49 AM, TheGloryLand said:

What does it mean when a person says, my pastor works and gets paid full-time. How many work hours are there for a full-time pastor or preacher. My worldly view of full-time is 40 hours. Full-time pastor should work at lest 40 hours?

Your worldly view...and I know by that you mean that it's typical  in America that a work week is 40 hours. Interestingly enough, it didn't use to be. Nor is 40 hours typical in some other countries. Many more hours than that are often put in.

Now let's look at it the way we should: biblically. Could you tell me just what the Bible says is proper time for a pastor to work? Because that is truly what all pastors should be concerned with, not with what the secular world puts down as full time.

Just FYI, even if a pastor "only" puts in 20-30 hours, pastors are always on call. Folks get hospitalized, they need their pastor. Folks die, family needs their pastor. Folks have wayward kids, they need their pastor, etc., etc. IOW, a pastor might only "put in" a certain number of hours, be he is ALWAYS on call for his people. That's way better than putting an hourly requirement on.

[TheGloryLand]

24 minutes ago, HappyChristian said:

Your worldly view...and I know by that you mean that it's typical  in America that a work week is 40 hours. Interestingly enough, it didn't use to be. Nor is 40 hours typical in some other countries. Many more hours than that are often put in.

Now let's look at it the way we should: biblically. Could you tell me just what the Bible says is proper time for a pastor to work? Because that is truly what all pastors should be concerned with, not with what the secular world puts down as full time.

Just FYI, even if a pastor "only" puts in 20-30 hours, pastors are always on call. Folks get hospitalized, they need their pastor. Folks die, family needs their pastor. Folks have wayward kids, they need their pastor, etc., etc. IOW, a pastor might only "put in" a certain number of hours, be he is ALWAYS on call for his people. That's way better than putting an hourly requirement on.

So, pretty much compared to regular work hours they should be on salary pay. The Bible says that the laborer is worth their work wages. If he does not work, he does not eat. In some extreme cases, they rob God. Like those that don't support the church financially.

[BrotherTony]

3 hours ago, Pastor Matt said:

I must not be a good pastor, I only put in 20-30 hours a week into pastoring 

I wouldn't count you any less a full time pastor if you worked 20 hours a week. Pastors are usually available to their people and others as well, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. 

I believe you to be a good pastor just for the fact of your churches growth since it started, and the souls saved through your ministry there. 

Edited April 5 by BrotherTony

[TheGloryLand]

54 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

I wouldn't count you any less a full time pastor if you worked 20 hours a week. Pastors are usually available to their people and others as well, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. 

I believe you to be a good pastor just for the fact of your churches growth since it started, and the souls saved through your ministry there. 

Does any church demand that a pastor has to work so many hours?  I only heard full-time or part-time. I imagine some do more work part-time than those who are full-time. This would be sad too.