The Scandal Rocking the Evangelical World

[Bouncing Bill]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/russell-moore-sbc/619122/

After posting this I decided that I probably selected the wrong subject. If so, I apologize. 

The article begins:

This is an earthquake,” a prominent Christian writer told me.

The publication of an extraordinary February 24, 2020, letter by Russell Moore, one of the most influential and respected evangelicals in America (and a friend), has shaken the Christian world.

When the letter was written, Moore was the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, the policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the United States. The letter, sent to the ERLC’s board of trustees, offers a devastating indictment of the denomination’s executive committee.

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Disturbing article, though I must admit I am not surprised. I'll leave it at that. 

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Bouncing Bill
Felt I stopped too soon. Perhaps an administrator can move this to a more appropriate subject..

[BrotherTony]

24 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/russell-moore-sbc/619122/

After posting this I decided that I probably selected the wrong subject. If so, I apologize. 

The article begins:

This is an earthquake,” a prominent Christian writer told me.

The publication of an extraordinary February 24, 2020, letter by Russell Moore, one of the most influential and respected evangelicals in America (and a friend), has shaken the Christian world.

When the letter was written, Moore was the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, the policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the United States. The letter, sent to the ERLC’s board of trustees, offers a devastating indictment of the denomination’s executive committee.

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Disturbing article, though I must admit I am not surprised. I'll leave it at that. 

 

 

I hate to say it, but I wouldn't take everything that Moore says at face value. Even the leaked letter seems suspicious to me, especially the timing of it's release. I know there is abuse in the SBC, mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually, and we know of it in Catholicism as well. I believe you'll find these abuses in EVERY denomination. When I was in IFB churches, there were large numbers of churches that were facing this, and at least one IFB college in Indiana with a pastor who had somewhat of a "cult" following. I'm sure those of you who are IFB can figure it out. I have NEVER supported Moore in the position he held with the ERLC. Moore has a history of talking out of both sides of his mouth, and it's made things hard within the convention. That's one reason he's gone! Should Randy Adams be voted in as president of the SBC, he would be pressing for major changes and more transparency, not only the ERLC, but the NAMB and other things the SBC supports through the cooperative. Mike Stone, having been on one of the boards of the ERLC, won't effect this kind of change. He was "buddy, buddy" with Moore for years, and, from what I've read, is part of an underlying problem within the SBC. I'm waiting to see who is nominated for SBC president. I know there are going to be at least four, with Randy Adams and Mike Stone being among them. I believe two others will be Al Mohler and possibly Litton. 

[Bouncing Bill]

9 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

 

I hate to say it, but I wouldn't take everything that Moore says at face value. Even the leaked letter seems suspicious to me, especially the timing of it's release. I know there is abuse in the SBC, mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually, and we know of it in Catholicism as well. I believe you'll find these abuses in EVERY denomination. When I was in IFB churches, there were large numbers of churches that were facing this, and at least one IFB college in Indiana with a pastor who had somewhat of a "cult" following. I'm sure those of you who are IFB can figure it out. I have NEVER supported Moore in the position he held with the ERLC. Moore has a history of talking out of both sides of his mouth, and it's made things hard within the convention. That's one reason he's gone! Should Randy Adams be voted in as president of the SBC, he would be pressing for major changes and more transparency, not only the ERLC, but the NAMB and other things the SBC supports through the cooperative. Mike Stone, having been on one of the boards of the ERLC, won't effect this kind of change. He was "buddy, buddy" with Moore for years, and, from what I've read, is part of an underlying problem within the SBC. I'm waiting to see who is nominated for SBC president. I know there are going to be at least four, with Randy Adams and Mike Stone being among them. I believe two others will be Al Mohler and possibly Litton. 

Your reply is interesting, but I feel you missed the main topic of the article. I do think there are issues in the SBC that desperately need to be addressed but probably will not. They have been swept under the rug in the past. My understanding is that the SBC has lost many members, near 300,000 in 2019 and over 400,000 in 2020. I believe this trend will continue. If they do not address the issues I am think of membership will drop. If they do address the issues membership will drop. It all depends on which group the mind loosing the least ... IMHO.

[BrotherTony]

2 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Your reply is interesting, but I feel you missed the main topic of the article. I do think there are issues in the SBC that desperately need to be addressed but probably will not. They have been swept under the rug in the past. My understanding is that the SBC has lost many members, near 300,000 in 2019 and over 400,000 in 2020. I believe this trend will continue. If they do not address the issues I am think of membership will drop. If they do address the issues membership will drop. It all depends on which group the mind loosing the least ... IMHO.

I didn't miss the main topic of the article, believe me. I've got many friends who are SBC pastors and many who aren't. I also know most of the issues facing the SBC. I believe that the SBC could possibly fracture because of the loss of members, but I'm just not sure when. with over 17K messengers going to the Convention just up the road in Nashville (that's over double the number from previous years) I think there may actually be willing to fight against some of the things going on in the organizations that the SBC churches support through the cooperative. I'm not sure your #'s are correct on how many were lost each of the past two years, but, I won't dispute them without hard evidence. 

[Jim_Alaska]

And so it goes with conventions, associations and fellowships; none of which were, or are authorized by Scripture or the God of Scripture. All of these are man-made institutions and subject to all of the sin and apostacy of the human mind.

[SureWord]

Hasn't shaken me in a bit. 

[BrotherTony]

25 minutes ago, SureWord said:

Hasn't shaken me in a bit. 

It shouldn't shake any of us, especially since the churches in the SBC are autonomous. Sometimes they don't seem to act that way. But, as @PastorMatt said, and so it goes! Disconcerting, but true.

[Bouncing Bill]

1 hour ago, BrotherTony said:

I didn't miss the main topic of the article, believe me. I've got many friends who are SBC pastors and many who aren't. I also know most of the issues facing the SBC. I believe that the SBC could possibly fracture because of the loss of members, but I'm just not sure when. with over 17K messengers going to the Convention just up the road in Nashville (that's over double the number from previous years) I think there may actually be willing to fight against some of the things going on in the organizations that the SBC churches support through the cooperative. I'm not sure your #'s are correct on how many were lost each of the past two years, but, I won't dispute them without hard evidence. 

Three issues come to mind.

Sexual misbehavior by clergy.

History of being on the wrong side of social issues in the last 150 years. Racism for one.

Taking seriously and addressing the concerns of Black Southern Baptist. 

I am not sure how or if IFBs can address such issues other than individual church by individual church. I do not know if IFB's are gaining or loosing members. 

[BrotherTony]

13 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Three issues come to mind.

Sexual misbehavior by clergy.

History of being on the wrong side of social issues in the last 150 years. Racism for one.

Taking seriously and addressing the concerns of Black Southern Baptist. 

I am not sure how or if IFBs can address such issues other than individual church by individual church. I do not know if IFB's are gaining or loosing members. 

You forgot a few issues that are in need of being addressed in the SBC. One is the lack of transparency in many areas, including finances (payouts to people like the former President of Lifeway Resources, payments by the ERLC to parties within the SBC for help cover-up some of the misdeeds of itself and the NAMB (Kevin Ezell), and other entities supported by the SBC) and the ethics that led to one of the former directors of a State Missionary Board in Delaware leading to court filings, cases and the whole thing now being moved to the SCOTUS to decide. As far as the SBC churches, as I've stated, they're just as autonomous as the IFB churches. The only difference is that they have decided to participate in the financial support of the SBC cooperative program. They can pay whatever percentage they wish from their churches tithes for missions support. I don't in particular like this way of supporting missionaries, because it doesn't really give the people in the churches the TRUE scope of what the missionaries are teaching. Many have "alternative" views these days, and it's not conducive to Biblical preaching. They also don't have to go to the churches to give an update of their activities. I like the way missionaries in the IFB churches come in to raise the money for their support. Wish they did this in the SBC as well.  On the attendance/membership in the IFB churches, many of the ones I know of and still have friends and relative in have lost members, especially since the pandemic came on. But, there are many who are actively going out and trying to reclaim members and restore people to the fold. I have several friends who are still street preaching, going out door to door, and still witnessing nearly everywhere they go. Wish we could find more SBC churches doing this. 

[Bouncing Bill]

13 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

You forgot a few issues that are in need of being addressed in the SBC. One is the lack of transparency in many areas, including finances (payouts to people like the former President of Lifeway Resources, payments by the ERLC to parties within the SBC for help cover-up some of the misdeeds of itself and the NAMB (Kevin Ezell), and other entities supported by the SBC) and the ethics that led to one of the former directors of a State Missionary Board in Delaware leading to court filings, cases and the whole thing now being moved to the SCOTUS to decide. As far as the SBC churches, as I've stated, they're just as autonomous as the IFB churches. The only difference is that they have decided to participate in the financial support of the SBC cooperative program. They can pay whatever percentage they wish from their churches tithes for missions support. I don't in particular like this way of supporting missionaries, because it doesn't really give the people in the churches the TRUE scope of what the missionaries are teaching. Many have "alternative" views these days, and it's not conducive to Biblical preaching. They also don't have to go to the churches to give an update of their activities. I like the way missionaries in the IFB churches come in to raise the money for their support. Wish they did this in the SBC as well.  On the attendance/membership in the IFB churches, many of the ones I know of and still have friends and relative in have lost members, especially since the pandemic came on. But, there are many who are actively going out and trying to reclaim members and restore people to the fold. I have several friends who are still street preaching, going out door to door, and still witnessing nearly everywhere they go. Wish we could find more SBC churches doing this. 

I am sure there are many problems I am unaware exist and should be addressed. The ones you mention surely should be addressed. These are internal problems.

I was thinking more of problems affecting their witness for Christ. It seems to me the SBC needs to determine if they are going to be a convention of the gospel or a convention of Southern Republicanism. The two are not compatible, IMHO. When  individuals, churches, or conventions mix politics into their message the message gets muddied and ineffective in bringing Christ to people. 

A short story on missionary efforts. In 2007 my wife and I worked at the Baptist Moscow Theological Seminary in Russia. We were cataloging their books written in English. Talking with a Russian Baptist minister one morning he said, "My church has just about recovered from the last missionary youth group who came for several weeks. They caused a number of problems."

"What as the problem?" I was curious. 

He smiled, "They and their leaders kept wanting to solve problems we do not have. They could not understand their problems are different from ours."

 

[BrotherTony]

3 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

I am sure there are many problems I am unaware exist and should be addressed. The ones you mention surely should be addressed. These are internal problems.

I was thinking more of problems affecting their witness for Christ. It seems to me the SBC needs to determine if they are going to be a convention of the gospel or a convention of Southern Republicanism. The two are not compatible, IMHO. When  individuals, churches, or conventions mix politics into their message the message gets muddied and ineffective in bringing Christ to people. 

A short story on missionary efforts. In 2007 my wife and I worked at the Baptist Moscow Theological Seminary in Russia. We were cataloging their books written in English. Talking with a Russian Baptist minister one morning he said, "My church has just about recovered from the last missionary youth group who came for several weeks. They caused a number of problems."

"What as the problem?" I was curious. 

He smiled, "They and their leaders kept wanting to solve problems we do not have. They could not understand their problems are different from ours."

 

All of the problems I mentioned DO affect the way the Gospel goes out. Most of the people within the SBC churches seem to be Republicans, and there are also a number of Democrats who don't vote solely Socialist Democrat because the party has moved so far left in recent years. Some have crossed over into the Libertarian group, and others have voted Republican as protest of what their party is coming to be. Having a case before the SCOTUS, the justices decision could reshape the SBC and turn it into a hierarchy like the RCC and other denominations with Kevin Ezell as it's "Pope." This would surely be the death knell of the SBC as people know it today, and probably of much of the missions program within the SBC. This is one reason my wife and I are considering a change back to the IFB sect of Baptists, or possibly to a Bible church group. Both of us, having been raised in IFB churches, but having attended SBC churches as well, especially over the last 21 years, we feel more comfortable in the IFB church circle. But, we also know of the patterns of abuse in them. As far as Russia...good for you. I used to work in Canada with the Indians in Ontario during the summers. But, of course, that was 40 years ago. Most of these problems didn't exist in the Baptist circles back then...at least, not to this degree.

[Bouncing Bill]

27 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

All of the problems I mentioned DO affect the way the Gospel goes out. Most of the people within the SBC churches seem to be Republicans, and there are also a number of Democrats who don't vote solely Socialist Democrat because the party has moved so far left in recent years. Some have crossed over into the Libertarian group, and others have voted Republican as protest of what their party is coming to be. Having a case before the SCOTUS, the justices decision could reshape the SBC and turn it into a hierarchy like the RCC and other denominations with Kevin Ezell as it's "Pope." This would surely be the death knell of the SBC as people know it today, and probably of much of the missions program within the SBC. This is one reason my wife and I are considering a change back to the IFB sect of Baptists, or possibly to a Bible church group. Both of us, having been raised in IFB churches, but having attended SBC churches as well, especially over the last 21 years, we feel more comfortable in the IFB church circle. But, we also know of the patterns of abuse in them. As far as Russia...good for you. I used to work in Canada with the Indians in Ontario during the summers. But, of course, that was 40 years ago. Most of these problems didn't exist in the Baptist circles back then...at least, not to this degree.

The SBC became too creedal for me some years ago with the Baptist Faith and Message becoming a litmus test for being Christian ... as least that is how I saw it. I am sure there are many who would disagree with me there. It is a short step from creeds to hierarchy. I grew up in a SBC, but I could not join a Southern Baptist Church at this stage in my life. What I was taught as a child is not what is taught in Southern Baptist Churches now. I call myself a traditional orthodox Baptist.

I go to a small church that tries to follow Christ's teachings on how we treat others and accept others seriously. This makes many Baptists consider us liberal at best and heretics at worst. Though other consider us liberal on social issues I do not as our beliefs and actions are our attempting to approach people as Christ approached people. Politics does not enter into our decision making, scripture does. Also, I believe our theology is conservative. We welcome all, and I mean all, some that others reject, as everyone needs Christ.

We have been called a MASH unit. God brings bleeding, hurting people to us. They are accepted, provided healing and God moves them on. This has been the story of the church since it began in 1983. We will never be large. God does not seem to want us to be large. 

[BrotherTony]

30 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said:

The SBC became too creedal for me some years ago with the Baptist Faith and Message becoming a litmus test for being Christian ... as least that is how I saw it. I am sure there are many who would disagree with me there. It is a short step from creeds to hierarchy. I grew up in a SBC, but I could not join a Southern Baptist Church at this stage in my life. What I was taught as a child is not what is taught in Southern Baptist Churches now. I call myself a traditional orthodox Baptist.

I go to a small church that tries to follow Christ's teachings on how we treat others and accept others seriously. This makes many Baptists consider us liberal at best and heretics at worst. Though other consider us liberal on social issues I do not as our beliefs and actions are our attempting to approach people as Christ approached people. Politics does not enter into our decision making, scripture does. Also, I believe our theology is conservative. We welcome all, and I mean all, some that others reject, as everyone needs Christ.

We have been called a MASH unit. God brings bleeding, hurting people to us. They are accepted, provided healing and God moves them on. This has been the story of the church since it began in 1983. We will never be large. God does not seem to want us to be large. 

Believe me, being a large church/mega church isn't anything to try to become. I've been a member in several mega-churches, and I hated it. TOO large, and not much real contact with the average member. Also, I don't believe the BF&M doesn't decide who is Christian, and I don't believe ANYONE holds that as a litmus test for being one. I believe that's an unfair characterization. 

[Bouncing Bill]

2 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Believe me, being a large church/mega church isn't anything to try to become. I've been a member in several mega-churches, and I hated it. TOO large, and not much real contact with the average member. Also, I don't believe the BF&M doesn't decide who is Christian, and I don't believe ANYONE holds that as a litmus test for being one. I believe that's an unfair characterization. 

Yes, I do not want to be part of a large church, much less a megachurch. Too easy for people to hide in large church. The lack of fellowship would be a problem for me. 

In a small church, and I mean less than 50, it is more like family. People know each other and have a personal interest in each person, including children. Every person is needed to fulfill the duties of the church. 

Here is another article on the infighting within the SBC.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2021/06/12/southern-baptist-convention-secret-infighting-meeting/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F338baa4%2F60c4d6db9d2fdae3027b44db%2F59876e1cae7e8a681613bd00%2F10%2F72%2F60c4d6db9d2fdae3027b44db

 

The article begins:

Demands for political loyalty. Disputes about racism. A fight between conservatives and ultraconservatives. It sounds like current debates within the Republican Party, but on Tuesday, thousands of Southern Baptists will gather in Nashville to vote on issues that will shape the massive denomination’s future, including the choice of its next president.

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Yes, I do not want to be part of a large church, much less a megachurch. Too easy for people to hide in large church. The lack of fellowship would be a problem for me. 

In a small church, and I mean less than 50, it is more like family. People know each other and have a personal interest in each person, including children. Every person is needed to fulfill the duties of the church. 

Here is another article on the infighting within the SBC.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2021/06/12/southern-baptist-convention-secret-infighting-meeting/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F338baa4%2F60c4d6db9d2fdae3027b44db%2F59876e1cae7e8a681613bd00%2F10%2F72%2F60c4d6db9d2fdae3027b44db

 

The article begins:

Demands for political loyalty. Disputes about racism. A fight between conservatives and ultraconservatives. It sounds like current debates within the Republican Party, but on Tuesday, thousands of Southern Baptists will gather in Nashville to vote on issues that will shape the massive denomination’s future, including the choice of its next president.

In spite of "demands for party loyalty" I know of several SBC pastors and members in churches throughout the country who DO NOT vote Republican. I know I'm not a Republican, but I'm not a Socialist Democrat, either. We're moderate Independents who are probably more right of center than most. We didn't leave the Republican Party, it left us in the 1980s. In local elections, we still will vote for a Democrat if it's apparent that he/she can do a better job than the Republican nominee. They can't do anything about the abortion issue, nor about several other issues facing Christians and humanity as a whole. I don't like to do it, but I will if necessary. I WON'T, however, vote for a Socialist Democrat in a national election just because they CAN and most likely WOULD support those things mentioned previously. Personally, I don't care whom the President of these organizations votes for as long as they follow their responsibility given them, and represent the people, the people's point of view and not their own (Russell Moore never did this), and won't bring themselves into question as both the former president of Lifeway did, and Russell Moore has done. Kevin Ezell and Ronnie Floyd should go as well. They tarnished their names and the SBC organizations they represent or have represented. Ready for them all to resign and NEW BLOOD to be installed...hopefully, more conservative people.