Do all men hate God prior to hearing the gospel?

[mbkjpreacher]

14 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

In this posting I wish to consider just Romans 1:28-30 -

Herein we do indeed have a passage of Scripture which directly states that unbelievers are "haters of God."  However, the opening question for this thread discussion was whether or not ALL unbelievers hate God, as follows -

So then, does Romans 1:28-30 precisely teach that ALL unbelievers are "haters of God."  I am compelled to contend that Romans 1:28-30 does NOT precisely teach that ALL unbelievers are "haters of God."  In Romans 1:18-32 we encounter a five step progression of ungodliness and unrighteousness within an unbelieving society:

Step 1 - They know of God's existence, but do not glorify Him as God. (vs. 18-21)
Step 2 - They change the glory of uncorruptible God into an image of corruptible creation. (vs. 22-23)
Step 3 - God Himself gives them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts. (vs. 24-25)
Step 4 - God Himself gives them up unto vile affections. (vs. 26-27)
Step 5 - God Himself gives them over to a reprobate mind. (vs. 28-32)

If we view Romans 1:18-32 according to this progression, then we would be compelled to acknowledge that the descriptive concerning unbelievers as "haters of God" does not precisely occur unto the fifth and final step of the progression, wherein God has given unbelieving society "over to a reprobate mind."  Now, this does NOT necessarily indicate that unbelievers are not "haters of God" prior to this stage of the progression.  Rather, this is to indicate that the passage itself does not precisely teach that ALL unbelievers are "haters of God," but only those unbelievers who are in the "reprobate mind" stage.  (Now, if Romans 1:18-32 is not viewed as a progression, then this "argument" might not be viewed as valid.)

(Note: This "argument" concerning Romans 1:18-32 does not cancel my earlier posting concerning the definition of "hate" and "love" in relation to unbelievers and the matter of disobedience and obedience.) 

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
(John 3:19-21)
 

There can be varying degree of hatred toward truth due to the influence and conviction of the Holy Spirit in the lives of men to bring them to salvation, that is by the preaching of the gospel.  So many people hear the gospel already.  But by nature men are rebellious to God and His word.   What can you say about the passage above which states "Everyone that doeth evil hateth the light"?  Is it your proposition that all men have love for God and His word even without the conviction of the Holy Spirit?  

[mbkjpreacher]

14 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

In this posting I wish to consider just Romans 1:28-30 -

Herein we do indeed have a passage of Scripture which directly states that unbelievers are "haters of God."  However, the opening question for this thread discussion was whether or not ALL unbelievers hate God, as follows -

So then, does Romans 1:28-30 precisely teach that ALL unbelievers are "haters of God."  I am compelled to contend that Romans 1:28-30 does NOT precisely teach that ALL unbelievers are "haters of God."  In Romans 1:18-32 we encounter a five step progression of ungodliness and unrighteousness within an unbelieving society:

Step 1 - They know of God's existence, but do not glorify Him as God. (vs. 18-21)
Step 2 - They change the glory of uncorruptible God into an image of corruptible creation. (vs. 22-23)
Step 3 - God Himself gives them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts. (vs. 24-25)
Step 4 - God Himself gives them up unto vile affections. (vs. 26-27)
Step 5 - God Himself gives them over to a reprobate mind. (vs. 28-32)

If we view Romans 1:18-32 according to this progression, then we would be compelled to acknowledge that the descriptive concerning unbelievers as "haters of God" does not precisely occur unto the fifth and final step of the progression, wherein God has given unbelieving society "over to a reprobate mind."  Now, this does NOT necessarily indicate that unbelievers are not "haters of God" prior to this stage of the progression.  Rather, this is to indicate that the passage itself does not precisely teach that ALL unbelievers are "haters of God," but only those unbelievers who are in the "reprobate mind" stage.  (Now, if Romans 1:18-32 is not viewed as a progression, then this "argument" might not be viewed as valid.)

(Note: This "argument" concerning Romans 1:18-32 does not cancel my earlier posting concerning the definition of "hate" and "love" in relation to unbelievers and the matter of disobedience and obedience.) 

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
(John 3:19-21)
 

There can be varying degree of hatred toward truth due to the influence and conviction of the Holy Spirit in the lives of men to bring them to salvation, that is by the preaching of the gospel.  So many people hear the gospel already.  But by nature men are rebellious to God and His word.   What can you say about the passage above which states "Everyone that doeth evil hateth the light"?  Is it your proposition that all men have love for God and His word even without the conviction of the Holy Spirit?  

[mbkjpreacher]

14 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

The portion I highlighted in your question...are you using this verse in the being of a person BEFORE they know Christ? I don't believe this is what the writer is trying to convey here, at least not in whole. Yes, it may be that right before their salvation they come to love God because of his sacrifice on mankinds behalf, and the salvation provided. I believe it is more in the line of us loving Christ after salvation because he first loved us...our love for him continues to grow as we grow in him.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
(John 3:19-21)
 

So what is your position on John 3: 19-20, Are all men in a state of rebellion and hatred for the truth yet loving sin, or some men by nature love God and the truth prior to the conviction of the Spirit? 

[BrotherTony]

14 minutes ago, mbkjpreacher said:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
(John 3:19-21)
 

So what is your position on John 3: 19-20, Are all men in a state of rebellion and hatred for the truth yet loving sin, or some men by nature love God and the truth prior to the conviction of the Spirit? 

The Bible clearly tells us that some Gentiles "followed the law" without having the law...They were trying to do right even though they didn't have the knowledge of God's law passed down like the Jews did.

Romans 2:14 Context

 

¹¹For there is no respect of persons with God. ¹²For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; ¹³(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. ¹⁴For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: ¹⁵Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) ¹⁶In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. ¹⁷Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

[Jerry]

The Bible teaches that ALL the lost are at enmity with God before salvation. Certainly not obeying the Lord (which Jesus defines as how we show our love to Him); and definitely not having the live of God in us. I’m sure the religious lost may have fluctuating emotions for or against God at various times; however, that is not Biblical love.

Brother Tony, that is referring to saved Gentiles - ie. how they were after salvation - not how some might have been before salvation.

[mbkjpreacher]

7 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

The Bible clearly tells us that some Gentiles "followed the law" without having the law...They were trying to do right even though they didn't have the knowledge of God's law passed down like the Jews did.

Romans 2:14 Context

 

¹¹For there is no respect of persons with God. ¹²For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; ¹³(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. ¹⁴For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: ¹⁵Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) ¹⁶In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. ¹⁷Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

That shows that the Holy Spirit influences and convicts all men as in John 16: 8, yet when it comes to regeneration they have to hear the word of God (James 1: 18).  Such as the case of Cornelius must have heard already and were under conviction of the Spirit that led him to the preacher.  I would like to know what is your interpretation of John 3: 19-21.

1)  All men are sinners and rebellious to God, hates God and the truth until convicted by the Spirit and the truth of God's word.  

2)  Some sinners love God and the truth even without the influence and conviction of the Spirit and the Word.  

 

Please select which represent your position 1 or 2 for better understanding and communication.  

[mbkjpreacher]

12 minutes ago, Jerry said:

The Bible teaches that ALL the lost are at enmity with God before salvation. Certainly not obeying the Lord (which Jesus defines as how we show our love to Him); and definitely not having the live of God in us. I’m sure the religious lost may have fluctuating emotions for or against God at various times; however, that is not Biblical love.

Brother Tony, that is referring to saved Gentiles - ie. how they were after salvation - not how some might have been before salvation.

That the point they do not have the love of God in their hearts, when people say I love God, they are just being religious hypocrites for how can they love God without knowing Him. We only love God when we understand God's love for us, 1 John 4: 19.  

[BrotherTony]

2 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

That shows that the Holy Spirit influences and convicts all men as in John 16: 8, yet when it comes to regeneration they have to hear the word of God (James 1: 18).  Such as the case of Cornelius must have heard already and were under conviction of the Spirit that led him to the preacher.  I would like to know what is your interpretation of John 3: 19-21.

1)  All men are sinners and rebellious to God, hates God and the truth until convicted by the Spirit and the truth of God's word.  

2)  Some sinners love God and the truth even without the influence and conviction of the Spirit and the Word.  

 

Please select which represent your position 1 or 2 for better understanding and communication.  

I believe the verses I posted before fit what you want to know. Some of the Gentiles lived as if they had the law...they did good...and they tried to do what was right. It seems like you're dealing with hypotheticals, which is what I found in the Missionary Baptist movement. It's very common there, and it's one reason my wife and I left. Too many hypotheticals to try and develop a doctrine, or to make the Bible fit mans ideology.

You might want to define the word "hate" as well. There are different definitions of hate, and it would be nice to know what you are using as your defintion.

Edited August 10, 2021 by BrotherTony

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 8/9/2021 at 12:54 AM, mbkjpreacher said:

But there is a condition in which sinners can respond in love and faith to God, that is at the point they hear the gospel.  

We love him, because he first loved us.
(1 John 4:19)

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
(Galatians 5:5-6)

What can you say about these verses 

Brother MBKJPreacher,

I do not believe that either 1 John 4:19 or Galatians 5:5-6 within their immediate context are intended to teach the truth that you trying to build upon them.  Rather, I believe that contextually both 1 John 4:19 and Galatians 5:5-6 are intended to teach to those who are already believers concerning our ongoing life of faith and love.

On the other hand, I believe that John 3:19-21 and 2 Thessalonians 2:10b are more contextually appropriate to teach the truth that you are seeking to promote -

8 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
(John 3:19-21)
 

So what is your position on John 3: 19-20, Are all men in a state of rebellion and hatred for the truth yet loving sin, or some men by nature love God and the truth prior to the conviction of the Spirit? 

John 3:13-21 is clearly a gospel context.  Involved in that gospel context -

1.  John 3:13 teaches the deity of God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
2.  John 3:14 & 16 teach the sacrificial death of God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
3.  John 3:15-16 & 18 teach the need for faith on God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
4.  John 3:15-18 teaches the gift of salvation, eternal life, and justification for believers.
5.  John 3:18 presents a warning and judgment unto those who refuse faith in God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then John 3:19-20 provides the reason why some refuse faith in God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ; while John 3:21 provides the reason why others come in faith unto God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, as personal Savior. 

According to John 3:19-20 the reason why some refuse faith in God the Son is because "men loved darkness rather than light."  Furthermore, we learn the reason that "men loved darkness rather than light" is "because their deeds were evil."  Finally, we learn the reason that men hate and reject the light is lest their "deeds should be reproved."  

On the other hand, according to John 3:21 the reason why others come in faith unto God the Son as personal Savior is because they "do truth," such that their "deeds might be made manifest" in order to reveal that God Himself is doing His saving work in their lives.

Even so, this passage clearly speaks about the matters of love and hate in relation to the gospel of faith in God the Son as Savior.  The second line of John 3:19 states the fact that "light is come into the world."  Based upon the teaching of John 1:4-5 (as well as other passages in the Gospel of John), this seems to be a reference unto God the Son Himself as Savior.  Thus when John 3:19-20 states that "men loved darkness rather than light" and that they hate the light, and will not come to the light, this appears to reveal a hatred and rejection by lost individuals against God the Son as Savior.  From this would be implied the truth that those who do come in faith unto God the Son as personal Savior are those who no longer love darkness rather than light, but who now love light and truth rather than darkness (which from my perspective appears to be the moment of Biblical repentance).  

I would further contend that the second half of 2 Thessalonians 2:10 corresponds to this understanding -- "Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."  Herein we learn that those who receive "not the love of the truth" are those who will not be saved.  From this is implied that in order to be saved an individual must receive "the love of the truth."  I believe that this corresponds with the teaching of John 3:21 that those who are saved are those who "do truth" and thus come "to the light."  

So then, I would contend that there IS an aspect of love which is necessary in coming through faith unto God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, as personal Savior from the darkness of our sinfulness.  Scripture appears to teach that those who actually come in faith unto God the Son as Savior are those who:

1.  Cease to love the darkness of evil more than the light.
2.  Turn from hating the light unto some manner of love for the light.
3.  Receive the love of the truth and thus "do truth" such that they come to the light.

So then also, I would contend that this describes the Biblical repentance that leads unto faith for salvation.

________________________________________

Yet the title question of this thread discussion is as follows:

On 6/1/2021 at 10:07 PM, mbkjpreacher said:

Do all men hate God prior to hearing the gospel? 

To the question as given, I would answer - Yes.  I would contend that an unbeliever cannot receive "the love of the truth" until they have encountered the truth.  However, if the question is intended to imply that simply "hearing the gospel" is that which immediately moves an unbeliever from love for darkness to love for the light, I would say - I cannot agree.  Many hear the gospel and yet continue to love "the darkness rather than the light."  Rather, I would contend that the moment of change from hate of the light to love for the light is the moment of Biblical repentance in the heart.  Indeed, I would contend that even Holy Spirit conviction itself is NOT the moment of this change.  Certainly the Holy Spirit's work of conviction is intended to convince a lost sinner unto Biblical repentance; however, lost sinners can and do resist the convicting work of the Holy Spirit.  It is only when a lost sinner yields to the convicting work of the Holy Spirit, that he or she comes to Biblical repentance, receives the love of the truth, and places faith in God the Son as Savior.

[Jerry]

There has never been a lost person that kept the law of God before salvation. That is what the book of Romans teaches: all have sinned, all are guilty before God, all need salvation - whether Jew or Gentile. The controversy Romans speaks to the Jews about was that they could not accept a Gentile as being saved and now righteous in God’s eyes (not that they were righteous prior to receiving the Saviour and being credited with His righteousness, but that now those who were not Jewish were now fulfilling the Law through faith in Christ).

[mbkjpreacher]

On 8/10/2021 at 11:50 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother MBKJPreacher,

I do not believe that either 1 John 4:19 or Galatians 5:5-6 within their immediate context are intended to teach the truth that you trying to build upon them.  Rather, I believe that contextually both 1 John 4:19 and Galatians 5:5-6 are intended to teach to those who are already believers concerning our ongoing life of faith and love.

On the other hand, I believe that John 3:19-21 and 2 Thessalonians 2:10b are more contextually appropriate to teach the truth that you are seeking to promote -

John 3:13-21 is clearly a gospel context.  Involved in that gospel context -

1.  John 3:13 teaches the deity of God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
2.  John 3:14 & 16 teach the sacrificial death of God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
3.  John 3:15-16 & 18 teach the need for faith on God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
4.  John 3:15-18 teaches the gift of salvation, eternal life, and justification for believers.
5.  John 3:18 presents a warning and judgment unto those who refuse faith in God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then John 3:19-20 provides the reason why some refuse faith in God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ; while John 3:21 provides the reason why others come in faith unto God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, as personal Savior. 

According to John 3:19-20 the reason why some refuse faith in God the Son is because "men loved darkness rather than light."  Furthermore, we learn the reason that "men loved darkness rather than light" is "because their deeds were evil."  Finally, we learn the reason that men hate and reject the light is lest their "deeds should be reproved."  

On the other hand, according to John 3:21 the reason why others come in faith unto God the Son as personal Savior is because they "do truth," such that their "deeds might be made manifest" in order to reveal that God Himself is doing His saving work in their lives.

Even so, this passage clearly speaks about the matters of love and hate in relation to the gospel of faith in God the Son as Savior.  The second line of John 3:19 states the fact that "light is come into the world."  Based upon the teaching of John 1:4-5 (as well as other passages in the Gospel of John), this seems to be a reference unto God the Son Himself as Savior.  Thus when John 3:19-20 states that "men loved darkness rather than light" and that they hate the light, and will not come to the light, this appears to reveal a hatred and rejection by lost individuals against God the Son as Savior.  From this would be implied the truth that those who do come in faith unto God the Son as personal Savior are those who no longer love darkness rather than light, but who now love light and truth rather than darkness (which from my perspective appears to be the moment of Biblical repentance).  

I would further contend that the second half of 2 Thessalonians 2:10 corresponds to this understanding -- "Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."  Herein we learn that those who receive "not the love of the truth" are those who will not be saved.  From this is implied that in order to be saved an individual must receive "the love of the truth."  I believe that this corresponds with the teaching of John 3:21 that those who are saved are those who "do truth" and thus come "to the light."  

So then, I would contend that there IS an aspect of love which is necessary in coming through faith unto God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, as personal Savior from the darkness of our sinfulness.  Scripture appears to teach that those who actually come in faith unto God the Son as Savior are those who:

1.  Cease to love the darkness of evil more than the light.
2.  Turn from hating the light unto some manner of love for the light.
3.  Receive the love of the truth and thus "do truth" such that they come to the light.

So then also, I would contend that this describes the Biblical repentance that leads unto faith for salvation.

________________________________________

Yet the title question of this thread discussion is as follows:

To the question as given, I would answer - Yes.  I would contend that an unbeliever cannot receive "the love of the truth" until they have encountered the truth.  However, if the question is intended to imply that simply "hearing the gospel" is that which immediately moves an unbeliever from love for darkness to love for the light, I would say - I cannot agree.  Many hear the gospel and yet continue to love "the darkness rather than the light."  Rather, I would contend that the moment of change from hate of the light to love for the light is the moment of Biblical repentance in the heart.  Indeed, I would contend that even Holy Spirit conviction itself is NOT the moment of this change.  Certainly the Holy Spirit's work of conviction is intended to convince a lost sinner unto Biblical repentance; however, lost sinners can and do resist the convicting work of the Holy Spirit.  It is only when a lost sinner yields to the convicting work of the Holy Spirit, that he or she comes to Biblical repentance, receives the love of the truth, and places faith in God the Son as Savior.

I do agree with you especially in this statement: 

 

Quote

Rather, I would contend that the moment of change from hate of the light to love for the light is the moment of Biblical repentance in the heart.  Indeed, I would contend that even Holy Spirit conviction itself is NOT the moment of this change.  Certainly the Holy Spirit's work of conviction is intended to convince a lost sinner unto Biblical repentance;

First there is the intellectual knowledge of the gospel truth which becomes clearer as he humbly listen through the conviction of the Holy Spirit shedding light about the love of God, (Titus 3: 4) that his heart is moved to believe and respond in love (1 John 4: 19), Thus changing his mind about sin, from the love of sin to the love of God, from unbelief to belief, that is repentance of sin, admitting that he is a condemned sinner, undeserving, and worthy of eternal punishment, thus trusting in Jesus for his salvation.  

 

That the 3 faculties of the soul are affected by the gospel:

Intellect -> Emotion -> Will 

The will does not refer to physical action but decision in the mind and heart.  

That faith is not repentance but that repentance precedes faith , Acts 20: 21, Mark 1: 15; Heb. 6: 1.  

That repentance is implied in John 3: 16, Eph. 2: 8 just as humility is implied. 

With regards to 1 John 4: 19 here is my question: 

1. Is it your proposition that this 1 John 4: 19 is not applicable to the first time a person hears and understood the love of God? 

2. Could this not refer to the first time we responded to the love of God to love him? 

3.  Are there not instances where the writer is writing to believers yet talking about the time they heard the gospel such as James 1: 18 and were born again?   

4.  Couldn't James be talking about the principle of regeneration in James 1: 18 yet written to the believers?  

[Pastor Scott Markle]

10 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

With regards to 1 John 4: 19 here is my question: 

1. Is it your proposition that this 1 John 4: 19 is not applicable to the first time a person hears and understood the love of God? 

2. Could this not refer to the first time we responded to the love of God to love him? 

3.  Are there not instances where the writer is writing to believers yet talking about the time they heard the gospel such as James 1: 18 and were born again?   

4.  Couldn't James be talking about the principle of regeneration in James 1: 18 yet written to the believers?  

Brother MBKJPreacher,

In the questions above, you present two passages for consideration: 1 John 4:19 & James 1:18.  You presented 1 John 4:19 as the primary passage under question and presented James 1:18 as an illustration of your point (as per question #2).  Allow me to begin with questions #3-4 concerning James 1:18.

3.  Yes, there are such times; and yes, James 1:18 is an example thereof.

4.  Yes, in James 1:18 God's Word is speaking to believers about the principle and event of their regeneration by God's gracious will through the power of God's Word (the gospel of faith in Christ).  In fact, in James 1:18 the principle and event of our regeneration is employed as a motivator for us believers to grow further in spiritual maturity through the truth and wisdom of God's Word (as per James 1:19-ff).  (Note: Referencing elements from the event of our salvation as a motivator for further growth is a common practice in the New Testament Scriptures.)

So then, what about 1 John 4:19?

2.  1 John 4:19 presents a general spiritual principle - We sinful humans have not initiated the relationship of love with God.  The Lord our God is the one who has initiated that relationship of love.  Sinful humans only ever engage in a love relationship toward God because He Himself first chose to demonstrate love toward us.  Indeed, according to the teaching of the New Testament, God's demonstration of "First Love" is the giving of His Son as a sacrifice for the salvation of us sinners.  Even so, the PRINCIPLE of 1 John 4:19 can be applied to any aspect of our relationship of love toward and with God.  

1.  No, I am NOT proposing that the general principle of 1 John 4:19 has no application to the first time that an individual recognizes God's "First Love" and responds in love.  In fact, as I have presented in the paragraph above, the principle of 1 John 4:19 can be applied to ANY aspect of our relationship of love toward and with God.  However, I AM proposing that the general principle of 1 John 4:19 is not included in its immediate context primarily to teach the doctrine of the lost sinner's change from love of sin to love of God.  Rather, the primary doctrine of the immediate context (encompassing 1 John 4:7-21) is that we believers should love one another.  Within this immediate context, the principle of 1 John 4:19 is intended as a motivator for this doctrinal responsibility (and is somewhat of a rewording and expansion of the same principle as given in 1 John 4:10). 

Thus I would contend that 1 John 4:19 should not be presented as a primary and foundational source for the doctrine that you are seeking to build upon it, that is - the doctrine concerning a lost sinner's change from love of the darkness to love of the light, from love of sinful evil to love of God and His Savior.  I could accept if it is employed simply as a supporting principle, but I would contend that the substance of the doctrine needs to be significantly communicated from some other foundational passage first (such as I have done above with John 3:19-21).  Furthermore, I would contend that the principle of 1 John 4:19, when applied to this doctrine, really only teaches that God's "First Love" is a motivator for the lost sinner's love toward God.  It does NOT teach that a lost sinner's encounter with God's "First Love" will necessarily bring about the lost sinner's response of love back to God.  It does not teach whether a lost sinner can resist the motivation of God's "First Love" and thereby reject it.  It only teaches that whenever any given lost sinner engages in love toward God, it is only because God demonstrated love first.  (In fact, the reason that this passage does not teach these certain things is because it is written to those who are already believers, and who thus have already entered into the relationship of God's love.  Furthermore, it is written to those believers in order to motivate love toward fellow believers.  The process by which a lost sinner first engages in love toward God is NOT the issue of the context.)

[mbkjpreacher]

10 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother MBKJPreacher,

In the questions above, you present two passages for consideration: 1 John 4:19 & James 1:18.  You presented 1 John 4:19 as the primary passage under question and presented James 1:18 as an illustration of your point (as per question #2).  Allow me to begin with questions #3-4 concerning James 1:18.

3.  Yes, there are such times; and yes, James 1:18 is an example thereof.

4.  Yes, in James 1:18 God's Word is speaking to believers about the principle and event of their regeneration by God's gracious will through the power of God's Word (the gospel of faith in Christ).  In fact, in James 1:18 the principle and event of our regeneration is employed as a motivator for us believers to grow further in spiritual maturity through the truth and wisdom of God's Word (as per James 1:19-ff).  (Note: Referencing elements from the event of our salvation as a motivator for further growth is a common practice in the New Testament Scriptures.)

So then, what about 1 John 4:19?

2.  1 John 4:19 presents a general spiritual principle - We sinful humans have not initiated the relationship of love with God.  The Lord our God is the one who has initiated that relationship of love.  Sinful humans only ever engage in a love relationship toward God because He Himself first chose to demonstrate love toward us.  Indeed, according to the teaching of the New Testament, God's demonstration of "First Love" is the giving of His Son as a sacrifice for the salvation of us sinners.  Even so, the PRINCIPLE of 1 John 4:19 can be applied to any aspect of our relationship of love toward and with God.  

1.  No, I am NOT proposing that the general principle of 1 John 4:19 has no application to the first time that an individual recognizes God's "First Love" and responds in love.  In fact, as I have presented in the paragraph above, the principle of 1 John 4:19 can be applied to ANY aspect of our relationship of love toward and with God.  However, I AM proposing that the general principle of 1 John 4:19 is not included in its immediate context primarily to teach the doctrine of the lost sinner's change from love of sin to love of God.  Rather, the primary doctrine of the immediate context (encompassing 1 John 4:7-21) is that we believers should love one another.  Within this immediate context, the principle of 1 John 4:19 is intended as a motivator for this doctrinal responsibility (and is somewhat of a rewording and expansion of the same principle as given in 1 John 4:10). 

Thus I would contend that 1 John 4:19 should not be presented as a primary and foundational source for the doctrine that you are seeking to build upon it, that is - the doctrine concerning a lost sinner's change from love of the darkness to love of the light, from love of sinful evil to love of God and His Savior.  I could accept if it is employed simply as a supporting principle, but I would contend that the substance of the doctrine needs to be significantly communicated from some other foundational passage first (such as I have done above with John 3:19-21).  Furthermore, I would contend that the principle of 1 John 4:19, when applied to this doctrine, really only teaches that God's "First Love" is a motivator for the lost sinner's love toward God.  It does NOT teach that a lost sinner's encounter with God's "First Love" will necessarily bring about the lost sinner's response of love back to God.  It does not teach whether a lost sinner can resist the motivation of God's "First Love" and thereby reject it.  It only teaches that whenever any given lost sinner engages in love toward God, it is only because God demonstrated love first.  (In fact, the reason that this passage does not teach these certain things is because it is written to those who are already believers, and who thus have already entered into the relationship of God's love.  Furthermore, it is written to those believers in order to motivate love toward fellow believers.  The process by which a lost sinner first engages in love toward God is NOT the issue of the context.)

Brother Markle, 

Yes there are cases when the writer was writing to the believers yet he is recalling past event which relates on how they were saved, such as Ephesians 2: 8-9, Paul was talking to the saved already but he was stating the fact or principle on how they were saved by grace through faith.  So still we can learn about the principle of salvation though it is written to the saved people already.  Also in James 1: 18, you have affirmed that God's word is speaking to the believers about the principle and event of their regeneration, therefore we can still learn principles of regeneration and salvation from a letter written to believers already and in fact all Epistles of Paul were written to believers and churches, yet there are many principles of salvation that we can learn from them.  

I am using 1 John 4: 19 as supporting passage to the fact that our love for God is a response when we understand God's love for us through the gospel.  It is through the knowledge of the gospel message that our heart is moved and our will is influenced to decide willingly to believe on the Lord Jesus.  The first time a person would respond to love God is when he understand God's love for him, that is when he understands the gospel message. (1 John 4: 9). There are those who believe that all men or some men love God even if they are unbelievers and have not heard yet of the gospel message, but the Bible is clear that we do not love God but that He loved us ( 1 John 4: 10).  Though one verse speaks the truth yet it is hard to convince others without supporting verses, so we need more supporting verses to prove our point and that includes John 3: 19-20.  

The reason why I am stressing 1 John 4: 19 is because there are many views and beliefs when does man respond to love God.  Calvinists believe that man cannot hear, cannot understand, cannot humble, cannot repent, cannot love, cannot believe unless regenerated.  So they place the ability to hear, repent, believe, love only after a person is saved.  The followers of Steven Anderson that I have personally encountered say that there is no emotional factor in salvation, no godly sorrow, as long as you just believe.  In fact some of them would say, that there is no heart involved only the mind to believe.  They would even twist in their video of James 2: 19 in order to support their idea of just intellectual belief for salvation.  I showed to them that believing involves the heart, Romans 10: 9.  They also say many Catholics love God, so they interpret the word believe in the book of John does not involve fear, conviction, humility, repentance or a change of mind from sinful way, and from loving  sin to loving God.  Some of them have come to a point of believing that the gospel of Matthew, Mark and Luke is different from the gospel of John because Matthew to Luke did mention repentance while John did not.   In Ephesians 2: 8-9, it mentioned that salvation is by grace through faith, but in the book of John such as John 6: 47 it does not mention grace yet it is implied in light with other passages.  Thus when we read "believe" in the the book of John, it does not mean apart from grace or without repentance or without a response of love for God for it is evident that the sinner can respond to love God when he understands God's love for him (1 John 4: 19).  It is evident that faith works by love, Galatians 5: 6.  Thus when we see the word believe in the book of John, conviction, humility, repentance are included in the word faith or believe.  

In Galatians 5: 1-6, Paul was trying to distinguish false believers to true believers.  He said whosoever of you are justified by the law, ye are fallen from grace.  He was also talking about "righteousness by faith" and that is about justification by faith.  In verse 6, he is stating the fact that faith works by love.  Is the principle of faith works by love true only in Christian living and not true in receiving salvation?  I think this is a statement of general truth.  

The Andersonites understanding of repentance of sin is to quit sinning or to cease from sin. Thus they removed it as requisite of salvation and so they say that there is no repentance of sin when a person believes.   As consequence of their belief, there is no need to admit that one is a sinner, that he is condemned, there is no need to change his view about sin that it is displeasing to God, there is no need for a change of heart for he can love sin while believing in God.  I am not talking about hating sin all the time to be saved or believing always to be saved.  But I am talking about the moment of faith when he understands the gospel, that there must be repentance of sin when a person trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior for why will a person who loves sin and does not want to be delivered from it trust the Savior?  

It is also my belief that a person can resist the gospel.  He can even reject it before hearing it due to pride.  The unregenerate can either respond in humility and pride to the conviction of the Spirit and to the gospel.  It does not mean that the depraved sinner can come to God by himself apart from the Spirit's influence.  Rather under divine grace and the Spirit's influence the depraved sinner can come to God by faith. Humility and repentance is already included in true faith.  A sinner can understand more the gospel when he does not stop to listen with just one verse presented and then turn his back, but as he continues to humbly listen the more he is enlightened and come to a point of clearly understanding the love of God.  It matters on how he responds to the gospel presentation, if he continues to listen with humbleness of mind as the Spirit convicts through the word preached, then he will come to understand the love of God in the gospel message, but if he resist the truth in his mind by pride then the truth will not change his heart.  If his heart is not changed by the truth, his will will not decide to believe.  

Faith is not repentance and repentance is not faith, but repentance precedes faith (Acts 20: 21; Mark 1: 15; Heb. 6: 1; Matthew 21: 32).  Repentance and faith are distinct but inseparable graces.  Hearing, humility, repentance, love are implied when faith or believe is mentioned only.  Repentance is a change of mind and is not work.  If it is repentance from sin, still it is not work.  It is just a change of mind about sin.  If a driver changes his mind from wrong driving to right driving, the change of mind does not become a work.  It is the driving that is work.  

 

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

7 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

I am using 1 John 4: 19 as supporting passage to the fact that our love for God is a response when we understand God's love for us through the gospel.  

Brother MBKJPreacher,

If I may, I wish to respond toward your above posting with small comments or changes here and there.  Some may view this as being overly "picky," but it is actually my desire to provide precision (from my perspective at least).

7 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

It is through the knowledge of the gospel message that our heart is moved and our will is influenced to decide willingly to believe on the Lord Jesus.  

I would say that it is through "the knowledge of the gospel message" AND the convicting work of the Holy Spirit that a lost sinner's heart CAN be moved and will CAN be influenced to decide willingly to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.  (I would employ the verb "can" instead of the verb "is," because the verb "is" almost makes it sound as if it is a certainty that a lost sinner will respond in faith to the knowledge of the gospel and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.  This is not certain because lost sinners can resist, refuse, and reject.)

7 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

The first time a person would respond to love God is when he understand God's love for him, that is when he understands the gospel message. (1 John 4: 9).

I would say that the first time a lost sinner would respond in love for God is when the lost sinner understands God's love for him (through the gospel message) AND actually engages in heart repentance of his or her love for the darkness.  I would contend that understanding the message of God's love is not enough, but that actual heart repentance must occur before a lost sinner has changed from love of the darkness to love of the light.

7 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

There are those who believe that all men or some men love God even if they are unbelievers and have not heard yet of the gospel message, but the Bible is clear that we do not love God but that He loved us ( 1 John 4: 10). 

Indeed, I would agree that this idea is Biblically false.  Romans 3:11 - "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."  Romans 3:18 - "There is no fear of God before their eyes."  (And I could add more passages to this list.)

7 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

The reason why I am stressing 1 John 4: 19 is because there are many views and beliefs when does man respond to love God.  Calvinists believe that man cannot hear, cannot understand, cannot humble, cannot repent, cannot love, cannot believe unless regenerated.  So they place the ability to hear, repent, believe, love only after a person is saved. 

 

I would utterly reject the Calvinistic belief of "regeneration before faith" as a Biblical falsehood and false gospel.

7 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

The followers of Steven Anderson that I have personally encountered say that there is no emotional factor in salvation, no godly sorrow, as long as you just believe.  In fact some of them would say, that there is no heart involved only the mind to believe.  They would even twist in their video of James 2: 19 in order to support their idea of just intellectual belief for salvation.  I showed to them that believing involves the heart, Romans 10: 9.  

I would have to disagree with such a position.  Biblical repentance involves the emotion, and according to God's Word the "heart" is clearly involved in the matter of Biblical faith.  (Note: I do NOT believe that the "heart" is Biblically to be viewed as the seat of emotion, but as the seat of motivation.)

8 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

They also say many Catholics love God, so they interpret the word believe in the book of John does not involve fear, conviction, humility, repentance or a change of mind from sinful way, and from loving  sin to loving God.  Some of them have come to a point of believing that the gospel of Matthew, Mark and Luke is different from the gospel of John because Matthew to Luke did mention repentance while John did not.   

I strongly oppose this viewpoint.

_________________________________

Well, I have a scheduled obligation; so more to follow later.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

16 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

In Galatians 5: 1-6, Paul was trying to distinguish false believers to true believers.  He said whosoever of you are justified by the law, ye are fallen from grace.  He was also talking about "righteousness by faith" and that is about justification by faith.  In verse 6, he is stating the fact that faith works by love.  Is the principle of faith works by love true only in Christian living and not true in receiving salvation?  I think this is a statement of general truth.  

I do not agree with your viewpoint concerning Galatians 5:1-6.

16 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

The Andersonites understanding of repentance of sin is to quit sinning or to cease from sin.

I would oppose this definition for repentance.

16 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

Thus they removed it as requisite of salvation and so they say that there is no repentance of sin when a person believes.   As consequence of their belief, there is no need to admit that one is a sinner, that he is condemned, there is no need to change his view about sin that it is displeasing to God, there is no need for a change of heart for he can love sin while believing in God.

I would oppose this denial of repentance as a prerequisite for salvation (although I recognize why holding the above definition for repentance would lead to such a denial).  I would contend that a Biblical definition for repentance would create NO contradiction between repentance and faith.

16 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

It is also my belief that a person can resist the gospel.  He can even reject it before hearing it due to pride.  The unregenerate can either respond in humility and pride to the conviction of the Spirit and to the gospel.  It does not mean that the depraved sinner can come to God by himself apart from the Spirit's influence.  Rather under divine grace and the Spirit's influence the depraved sinner can come to God by faith. Humility and repentance is already included in true faith.  A sinner can understand more the gospel when he does not stop to listen with just one verse presented and then turn his back, but as he continues to humbly listen the more he is enlightened and come to a point of clearly understanding the love of God.  It matters on how he responds to the gospel presentation, if he continues to listen with humbleness of mind as the Spirit convicts through the word preached, then he will come to understand the love of God in the gospel message, but if he resist the truth in his mind by pride then the truth will not change his heart.  If his heart is not changed by the truth, his will will not decide to believe.  

Faith is not repentance and repentance is not faith, but repentance precedes faith (Acts 20: 21; Mark 1: 15; Heb. 6: 1; Matthew 21: 32).  Repentance and faith are distinct but inseparable graces.  Hearing, humility, repentance, love are implied when faith or believe is mentioned only.  Repentance is a change of mind and is not work.  If it is repentance from sin, still it is not work.  It is just a change of mind about sin.  If a driver changes his mind from wrong driving to right driving, the change of mind does not become a work.  It is the driving that is work.  

Although I might not word things precisely the same way, I believe that we are agreed here.