Have we gone too far?

[Bouncing Bill]

The American Culture lays great stress on individualism. There is good reason why this developed in our culture. On the frontier and in the west a person had to rely on themselves and their family. There was no one else around. Thus, my right to be myself and do what I want is deeply ingrained in our culture. I see this as both a great strength and a great weakness. 

Thus, the question becomes when does the right of the many supersede the right of the individual? Though we place great value on the rights of the individual we do put limits on that right. We do not consider it a right to murder others, to steal from others, etc. Where should the limit on individual rights be imposed. 

I have been thinking about this during the controversy over the wearing of masks to protect both the person wearing the mask and people around them. When I was a kid people could be quarantined if they had a contagious disease, i.e. TB, Typhoid Fever, Yellow Fever to name a few. People were quarantined during the flu pandemic in 1918 and people were required to wear masks also.  So, in your opinion does a person have the right not to wear a mask and therefore to put themselves and others at risk of catching Covid-19 or is the good of the many greater than the right of the one?   

Edited July 16, 2020 by Bouncing Bill

[Jim_Alaska]

1 Peter 2:13 (KJV) Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

Hebrews 13:17 (KJV) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

5 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

The American Culture lays great stress on individualism. There is good reason why this developed in our culture. On the frontier and in the west a person had to rely on themselves and their family. There was no one else around. Thus, my right to be myself and do what I want is deeply ingrained in our culture. I see this as both a great strength and a great weakness. 

Thus, the question becomes when does the right of the many supersede the right of the individual? Though we place great value on the rights of the individual we do put limits on that right. We do not consider it a right to murder others, to steal from others, etc. Where should the limit on individual rights be imposed. 

I have been thinking about this during the controversy over the wearing of masks to protect both the person wearing the mask and people around them. When I was a kid people could be quarantined if they had a contagious disease, i.e. TB, Typhoid Fever, Yellow Fever to name a few. People were quarantined during the flu pandemic in 1918 and people were required to wear masks also.  So, in your opinion does a person have the right not to wear a mask and therefore to put themselves and others at risk of catching Covid-19 or is the good of the many greater than the right of the one?   

Just so you know. This font you use makes me not want to read your posts because its hard on the eyes.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

To a question from a church member concerning the same context, I presented a recognition that there are four categories of conflict for consideration:

1.  God versus government.  When this conflict clearly exists, it is our responsibility to "obey God rather than man."

2.  Government versus personal preference.  When this conflict exists, God's Word commands submission to government.

3.  Government versus another part of government.  When this conflict exists, decision making is much more difficult.  (Which part of government has the more valid authority?  Which decision will make for peace, rather than strife?  Which decision will favor a godly testimony for our Lord's name's sake?  Etc.)

4.  Government versus Law (the established law of the land).  When this conflict exists, decision making is also difficult; however, I would recommend standing against unlawful government through any lawful means appropriate, while retaining a godly testimony of peace, longsuffering, and grace.

Concerning "individual rights," God's Word gives counsel in 1 Peter 2:15-16 -- "For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: as free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God."  (1) We must always engage in "well doing."  (2) We must never have an attitude of "maliciousness."  (3) We must always maintain godly attitude and action "as the servants of God."  And sometimes that does indeed mean giving up personal rights for the sake of the Lord's name, the Lord's gospel, and love for others.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Pastor Scott Markle

[SureWord]

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

To a question from a church member concerning the same context, I presented a recognition that there are four categories of conflict for consideration:

1.  God versus government.  When this conflict clearly exists, it is our responsibility to "obey God rather than man."

2.  Government versus personal preference.  When this conflict exists, God's Word commands submission to government.

3.  Government versus another part of government.  When this conflict exists, decision making is much more difficult.  (Which part of government has the more valid authority?  Which decision will make for peace, rather than strife?  Which decision will favor a godly testimony for our Lord's name's sake?  Etc.)

4.  Government versus Law (the established law of the land).  When this conflict exists, decision making is also difficult; however, I would recommend standing against unlawful government through any lawful means appropriate, while retaining a godly testimony of peace, longsuffering, and grace.

Concerning "individual rights," God's Word gives counsel in 1 Peter 2:15-16 -- "For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: as free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God."  (1) We must always engage in "well doing."  (2) We must never have an attitude of "maliciousness."  (3) We must always maintain godly attitude and action "as the servants of God."  And sometimes that does indeed mean giving up personal rights for the sake of the Lord's name, the Lord's gospel, and love for others.

Your fourth point is a good one. The law of the land is the Constitution. Unfortunately, America is being run more and more by activist judges and unelected bureaucrats. 

Submit to every ordinance of man except the ones that hurt your worship and service of God. But get ready to pay the price and make sure you are in the right with God if you disobey unjust laws. 

As far as people not wearing masks, I think this is because many people know this whole virus thing has become political and an attempt to destroy the economy since Trump had that going for him and his chances of reelection. IMO, refusing to wear a mask is more symbolic than anything. Especially after how these same politicians allowed, even encouraged, the riots but have shut down smaller, peaceful protests to reopen businesses.

Honestly, sometimes I wear a mask, sometimes I don't. There's some evidence that masks are even more dangerous and it's hard for me to respect a governor (Northam) who supports infanticide.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by SureWord

[Bouncing Bill]

9 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

1 Peter 2:13 (KJV) Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

Hebrews 13:17 (KJV) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

 

I also can read the Bible. I would like to know what you think. How far do we take 1 Peter 2:13 and Hebrews 13:17. If those who rule over you, the government, tell you to commit a terrible sin are you to do so? Are we to simply obey any order any government official gives us?  I do not feel you addressed me question. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Bouncing Bill

[SureWord]

9 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

I also can read the Bible. I would like to know what you think. How far do we take 1 Peter 2:13 and Hebrews 13:17. If those who rule over you, the government, tell you to commit a terrible sin are you to do so? Are we to simply obey any order any government official gives us?  I do not feel you addressed me question. 

Obey God rather than man. We have liberty in Christ but for testimony's sake should obey ordinances that don't force us to dishonor God.

[Bouncing Bill]

8 minutes ago, SureWord said:

Obey God rather than man. We have liberty in Christ but for testimony's sake should obey ordinances that don't force us to dishonor God.

I have no problem with you reply ... other than it does not address the subject of this thread. 

[SureWord]

2 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

I have no problem with you reply ... other than it does not address the subject of this thread. 

Um....you were talking about individual rights, weren't you?

The passage in I Peter 2 is about obeying all the ordinances of government even though we have liberty in Christ. The reason is to maintain a good testimony before man. If there's a conflict between God's law and man's we are to "obey God rather than man" not holler about our rights.

Pretty straight forward.

Edited July 17, 2020 by SureWord

[Bouncing Bill]

46 minutes ago, SureWord said:

Um....you were talking about individual rights, weren't you?

The passage in I Peter 2 is about obeying all the ordinances of government even though we have liberty in Christ. The reason is to maintain a good testimony before man. If there's a conflict between God's law and man's we are to "obey God rather than man" not holler about our rights.

Pretty straight forward.

So where does the rights of a society supersede that of an individual?

[Ukulelemike]

On 7/16/2020 at 4:14 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

1 Peter 2:13 (KJV) Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

Hebrews 13:17 (KJV) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

 

Hebrews 13:17 is referring to spiritual authority, Pastors/Bishops/Elders, in the church, not civil, because civil rulers surely don't watch for our souls. I beieve it is close to a repeat of Hebrews 13:7, in the mouth of two or three witnesses. 

However, I DO agree with the first, and others, in that we are to obey the powers that be, because they're ordained of God.

[Martyr_4_FutureJoy]

On 7/16/2020 at 2:38 PM, Bouncing Bill said:

The American Culture lays great stress on individualism.

 

On 7/17/2020 at 5:56 PM, Bouncing Bill said:

So where does the rights of a society supersede that of an individual?

I don't remember in Scripture seeing much if anything about rights of society ?

And it has been some time since I saw a good Bible teaching about the topic "individualism" or rather about someone's "rights" .  I hope some of the old time sermons are still available somewhere...  They showed clearly that we give up our rights when we get Baptized into Jesus, or Baptized in Jesus' Name.   He becomes our Lord, completely.  (willingly and joyously ,  without holding anything back at all)   i.e. whole-hearted, total devotion to Jesus.

[Ukulelemike]

The founders, as they met to prepare the Declaration of Independence, would read aloud 2 verses, (probably among others), that laid out, biblically, their beliefs in national liberty, and how they agreed with Christian liberty: Gal 5:1 and 5:13:

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. "

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. "

First, we should stand fast and secure in the liberty we gained from an oppressive rule, and work hard not to place ourselves back under that yoke of bondage, and second, to understand that an essential aspect of both nation and Christian liberty is service to one another, and not to think liberty is just about self.  True liberty isn't about individualism, it is about love thy neighbor as thyself, the second of the two greatest commandments of God.