Calvinism Thread...per Bro. Markle request

[Jim_Alaska]

25 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

I would say yes, that after the Rapture event, those still remaining who have heard the message of the Gospel would be the ones God blinds to the Antichrist affecting them now. I am a Calvinist, so those would also be the ones whom God did not intend to get saved, so he is continue to harden them off, just as He did to Pharaoh.

So, there are people that God never intended to get saved? How would that statement line up with this Scripture?

 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.  

[Pastor Matt]

1 hour ago, Jim_Alaska said:

So, there are people that God never intended to get saved? How would that statement line up with this Scripture?

 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.  

I've had many discussions with Calvinists (Isn't it strange that their doctrine is named after a man?) and the dispute for this verse is that since this verse is talking about the second coming of Christ that is talking about God waiting. Peter is explaining the reason for the delay in Christ's second coming. In reality, He is God, He does not have to wait for anyone.

One question that I have is if God never intended everyone to get saved, then He hates those people. Then why is it that the same God is commanding me to love them that He hates? Bible commands us to love our neighbor, why would He want me to love someone on this earth that He hates, only for them to spend eternity in Hell?

[Jordan Kurecki]

1 hour ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Let me get this straight Dan. All means all in your statement that "all were lost and enemies of God."But in the verse I supplied stating that, "all should come to repentance, all only means some?

My old original missionary pastor used to say, "all means all, and that's all that all means."

You can't have it both ways, either all means all or all means some, which is it?

Not that I am a Calvinist, but "all" definitely has to be interpreted in context. For example, ALL have sinned, does not include the Lord Jesus Christ.

in Genesis 6:17 God said he would destroy ALL flesh. of course this did not include Noah.

Do a simple search on the word all in the bible and you will see that all is usually qualified by the context and sometimes the word all is limited by what's in the context. 

Again, I am not a Calvinist because I see too many problems with TULIP. I do however believe in being honest when talking about things. and that "all" argument I don't think is the best argument. Besides you can make an argument for 2 Peter 3:9 that it is written to the "elect" seeing as how it says God is long-suffering to "us-ward" 

[Jim_Alaska]

Bro. Jordan, you surprise me in that the context of 2 Pet.3:9 has historically been interpreted to mean all mankind, which lines up with all other Scripture that shows that "all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God." The "all" here is commonly understood to mean all mankind.

To even hint that my usage of the word "all" in this Scripture could in any way be shown to include our Lord borders on being silly. Other Scripture very clearly points out that Jesus had no sin, therefore nothing to repent of. Therefore common sense would immediately eliminate our Lord from the usage of the word "all".

2 Peter nowhere says that it was written to the elect. Calvinism is well known for torturing Scripture to make a point. That point is almost without fail a man made doctrine, which is exactly what Calvinism is.

You say you are not a Calvinist and I do not believe you are, but you are arguing from a Calvinist platform in your post.

[No Nicolaitans]

Yes.

I hate to say it, but here goes...

Will doesn't mean will in that verse; rather, will means will. 

[Alan]

2 Peter 3:9 is a great example of how God wants all men to be saved just as 1 Timothy 2:4 is a great example for all men to be saved. Both are equally right, proper, and doctrinally correct. It is the Calvinist false teachers who first started to question 2 Peter 3:9 and the usage of  "all" and that 2 Peter 3:9 was only written to the elect. Such arguments are incorrect, false, and question the very words of God. 

Edited August 12, 2018 by Alan

[DaChaser]

On 8/12/2018 at 8:34 AM, Alan said:

2 Peter 3:9 is a great example of how God wants all men to be saved just as 1 Timothy 2:4 is a great example for all men to be saved. Both are equally right, proper, and doctrinally correct. It is the Calvinist false teachers who first started to question 2 Peter 3:9 and the usage of  "all" and that 2 Peter 3:9 was only written to the elect. Such arguments are incorrect, false, and question the very words of God. 

Jesus death was intended by God to be applied towards those whom he intended to be saved, the elect inChrist jesus. God loves us first, and then we love Him due to that truth.

[Jim_Alaska]

10 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

Jesus death was intended by God to be applied towards those whom he intended to be saved, the elect inChrist jesus.

Dan, can you provide Scripture for this statement? Yours is typical Calvinist teaching; just pick some man's reasoning out of thin air and regurgitate it over and over.

I noticed you were careful to include the word "elect". Calvinists get a lot of mileage out of the two words "elect" and "predestined". But the mileage they get is always flawed because they are incapable of understanding those two words in their proper context.

Here is a "for instance" for you: The Calvinist will always argue that because a person is of the "elect" he will be saved. Actually that idea is not only flawed, it is the exact opposite of the true meaning of the word in Scripture.

The truth of the matter is that because that person is saved, he is then of the "elect".

Calvinist doctrine makes God some sort of monster that chooses who will be saved and then condemns the rest to Hell. And yet Scripture plainly refutes this in plain language:   Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.  The word "whosoever" is all inclusive.

 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God is not willing that any should perish, then why do people perish? The simple answer that the Calvinist refuses to consider is that man has fee will to chose to either accept God's provision for salvation in Jesus Christ or to refuse it. This is not God choosing who will be saved and who will not; the decision to accept of reject is man's responsibility and choice.

The Calvinist's other key misunderstood word is "predestinate". The Scripture that they use is this:  Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. They may know the meaning of that word, but they completely fail to understand it is its application and context.

The predestination of God is predicated on His foreknowledge. God is God and he knows the end from the beginning. So because He knew from eternity past who would accept His provision, he could predestinate those who would accept His provision to be conformed to the image of His Son. So in simple terms, because He foreknew who would accept His provision, He could call, justify and glorify; all in the past tense and because of His foreknowledge.

So, as I asked in the beginning, "can you provide Scripture for this statement?"

 

[Alan]

DaChaser,

Awhile back we discussed Calvinism. I am giving you two of my quotes to answer you.

On 7/12/2017 at 8:58 AM, Alan said:

I usually start out with Romans 8:27 to get the exact context that Paul is dealing with, and proceed to verse 28 & 29, with my comments inter-spaced as we talk.

Verse 27, "And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit [only the saints have the Spirit] because he maketh intercession to the will of God." Verse 28 & 29, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God [only a saint can love God], to them who are the called [the saved, the redeemed] according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also [also: in addition too after salvation: after being redeemed; after the Spirit enters the saint] did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Please also take careful note Paul stated, "among the brethren."

I then concentrate on Romans 8:29 & 30 to bring out the 'foreknowledge' of God is before predestination, and to define the biblical definition of predestination, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and them he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

" And," and "also" are key words. In talking to the saints, Paul starts with "And," after salvation, also, in addition to, the saint is predestined to "be conformed to the image of his Son," and the other gifts of salvation from verse 30-39

If I have time, I generally talk in detail about verses 30 to 39 to show that there are other blessings every saint has after salvation.

I hope the above study helped.

Alan

 

On 7/12/2017 at 5:44 PM, Alan said:

Before I continue my thoughts about the Calvinistic doctrines of TULIP, I need to add that my postings are a condensation of a Bible study that I did here on Taiwan, in Chinese, that I did in our Bible Institute of our church that we started. On Taiwan, the largest Christian denomination is the Presbyterians. The study on Calvin and his doctrines help our students understand Calvinism (TULIP) and the doctrinal errors of the Presbyterian Church. if I skip over any important parts, or you have a question that I need to clarify, please let me know.

Once I gone through Romans 8, I proceed to emphasize the foreknowledge of God. Foreknowledge precedes predestination. The Calvinist theory of predestination is that God elects those, or predestinates, individuals to either hell or heaven arbitrarily: in other  words man does not have a free will or is able to make a decision concerning salvation.

In emphasizing the foreknowledge of God I proceed to 1 Peter 1:1 & 2,"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." The saints are in the 'elect' according to the 'foreknowledge of God the Father.' God, in His foreknowledge of all events, especially in the eternal salvation of the soul, knows (does not predestinate), those individuals who will make the decision, out of his own free will, to get saved or not.

If there is still a problem with the foreknowledge of God, the sermon by Peter is useful; Acts 15:6-30. I need to make a note here. When we discuss a passage of scripture in our Institute we discuss the whole passage; not just one verse. I am condensing a whole lot in this posting. The apostle Peter stated, "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Acts 15:14 We, including Calvin, cannot fully understand the foreknowledge of God, it is a mystery to our finite minds. Therefore, a lot of people have a problem with understanding salvation, what predestination really entails (Romans 8:29). Basically put, God knows who will be saved beforehand and who will not.

Alan

 

 

 

7 hours ago, DaChaser said:

Jesus death was intended by God to be applied towards those whom he intended to be saved, the elect inChrist jesus. God loves us first, and then we love Him due to that truth.

Because of the love of God for the world, the death of the Lord Jesus on the cross of Calvary was for the sins of all mankind, the world; not just for those who would get saved. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

The love of God is extended for every person, in every country, in every language, in every race, in every age. God wants everybody saved. The love of God is extended to "whosoever."

Alan

Edited August 13, 2018 by Alan
spelling

[John Young]

Of note is the fact that every verse speaking of predestination Is not ever talking about predestined to "salvation" but rather conformation. In other words the already saved/converted are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's son. So we see that it was predetermined from the beginning for all those who enter into Christ but that the entering in is not at the beginning but rather in the fullness of time.

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ephesians 1:10-12 that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

[DaChaser]

3 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Dan, can you provide Scripture for this statement? Yours is typical Calvinist teaching; just pick some man's reasoning out of thin air and regurgitate it over and over.

I noticed you were careful to include the word "elect". Calvinists get a lot of mileage out of the two words "elect" and "predestined". But the mileage they get is always flawed because they are incapable of understanding those two words in their proper context.

Here is a "for instance" for you: The Calvinist will always argue that because a person is of the "elect" he will be saved. Actually that idea is not only flawed, it is the exact opposite of the true meaning of the word in Scripture.

The truth of the matter is that because that person is saved, he is then of the "elect".

Calvinist doctrine makes God some sort of monster that chooses who will be saved and then condemns the rest to Hell. And yet Scripture plainly refutes this in plain language:   Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.  The word "whosoever" is all inclusive.

 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God is not willing that any should perish, then why do people perish? The simple answer that the Calvinist refuses to consider is that man has fee will to chose to either accept God's provision for salvation in Jesus Christ or to refuse it. This is not God choosing who will be saved and who will not; the decision to accept of reject is man's responsibility and choice.

The Calvinist's other key misunderstood word is "predestinate". The Scripture that they use is this:  Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. They may know the meaning of that word, but they completely fail to understand it is its application and context.

The predestination of God is predicated on His foreknowledge. God is God and he knows the end from the beginning. So because He knew from eternity past who would accept His provision, he could predestinate those who would accept His provision to be conformed to the image of His Son. So in simple terms, because He foreknew who would accept His provision, He could call, justify and glorify; all in the past tense and because of His foreknowledge.

So, as I asked in the beginning, "can you provide Scripture for this statement?"

 

Yes, hebrew 9:28, John 1:13. Romans 8:29-30/Ephesians 1:5, to name a few!

[DaChaser]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

DaChaser,

Awhile back we discussed Calvinism. I am giving you two of my quotes to answer you.

 

 

Because of the love of God for the world, the death of the Lord Jesus on the cross of Calvary was for the sins of all mankind, the world; not just for those who would get saved. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in h8m should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

The love of God is extended for every person, in every country, in every language, in every race, in every age. God wants everybody saved. The love of God is extended to "whosoever."

Alan

Have to though bear in mkind that If the will of the Lord was to have all sinners saved, there would be all saved, and did not jesus Himself state that those not Him own were children of the Devil alrerady?

[Alan]

2 hours ago, DaChaser said:

Have to though bear in mkind that If the will of the Lord was to have all sinners saved, there would be all saved, and did not jesus Himself state that those not Him own were children of the Devil alrerady?

The Lord wants all men to be saved but all men do not want to repent, trust in Christ as their Saviour, and be saved. Before anybody is saved he is a child of the devil, lost, and without hope. After a person is saved he is a child of God and adopted into God's family.

[Jim_Alaska]

2 hours ago, DaChaser said:

Yes, hebrew 9:28, John 1:13. Romans 8:29-30/Ephesians 1:5, to name a few!

What you provided does not in any manner address your original statement which was: "Jesus death was intended by God to be applied towards those whom he intended to be saved, the elect in Christ jesus." This statement is not Scripture and is wholly man made.

And even further, your Scripture references are extremely weak at best, as it concerns your advocating for Calvinism.

[DaChaser]

On 8/13/2018 at 6:48 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

What you provided does not in any manner address your original statement which was: "Jesus death was intended by God to be applied towards those whom he intended to be saved, the elect in Christ jesus." This statement is not Scripture and is wholly man made.

And even further, your Scripture references are extremely weak at best, as it concerns your advocating for Calvinism.

What is known from the scriptures is that all of us sinned in Adam, so all of us are spiritually dead, and that the natural Man does not receive the things of God in and by themselves. We are in an enemy state against God, and must have the Holy Spirit enable us to believe in Jesus to get saved, as Ephesians 2:8-10 makes it clear that even saving faith is a gift from God towards us. The ones who believe unto Jesus are his shhep, as we believe in Him because it is thew will and calling of the father that we would do such. IF God intended all sinners to be saved by the death of Jesus, why is it that he also would eb the one sending a strong delusion upon thelost in end times to remain lost then?