Lester Roloff

[BabeinChrist]

On July 22, 2017 at 11:33 AM, wretched said:

I won't presume to speak for Bob but will mention a couple of thoughts for you to consider friend.

Assurance of salvation can only come inside each person's heart. "The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the sons of God"

Assurance can never truly come from others convincing or reiterating another's belief. In addition, no one can pin down a date or time when they were regenerated. They only know after it happened because their eyes are now opened and they now hunger for the Milk of God's Truth. Sure folks can remember when they recited a prayer or the words indicating belief and can remember when they professed Christ before men but not when they truly believed in the heart. It is at that split second that the Spirit gave them new birth.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I am sensing that you maybe misunderstanding the point Bob and others are making in this thread. They are not implying repentance is a "work" but rather a state of one's heart (an attitude of sorrow seeking mercy). This attitude of repentance is brought on by the Gospel Scriptures.

I wonder if this may be simply another argument on semantics.

 

Why do you think nobody knows when they we saved? I remember the EXACT moment I got saved, in 2004. 

I remember hearing the Gospel but never understanding it until I came to the lowest, most humbling point in my life when I sought God with all of my heart, soul & mind sincerely. It was THEN that the Holy Spirit enlightened me to the understanding of His Gospel, that I am a sinner who deserves Hell, but that God's love & mercy prompted Him to sent His Son into this wicked, fallen world to do for us what we ourselves CANNOT do....which is pay our debt of sin & go to Heaven. And while Christ did this for all, it finally became clear that "all" included little ole me.  The verse I heard all my life, John 3:16, but never grasped the meaning of, was being manifest in my mind, soul & spirit for the first time.

It was like God reached down with the greatest gift one could ever hope to receive, salvation from Hell, (with my name on it) & presented it to me, with Jesus Christ being the proof of purchase..

And I, with all my heart, BELIEVE it.

THAT VERY SAME MOMENT I believed, I  couldn't help but announce it (even though I knew God already could see in my heart & knew) & I was instantly CHANGED.

I was reborn.

I really don't think a person even can be saved & NOT KNOW they are.

[wretched]

2 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

Why do you think nobody knows when they we saved? I remember the EXACT moment I got saved, in 2004. 

I remember hearing the Gospel but never understanding it until I came to the lowest, most humbling point in my life when I sought God with all of my heart, soul & mind sincerely. It was THEN that the Holy Spirit enlightened me to the understanding of His Gospel, that I am a sinner who deserves Hell, but that God's love & mercy prompted Him to sent His Son into this wicked, fallen world to do for us what we ourselves CANNOT do....which is pay our debt of sin & go to Heaven. And while Christ did this for all, it finally became clear that "all" included little ole me.  The verse I heard all my life, John 3:16, but never grasped the meaning of, was being manifest in my mind, soul & spirit for the first time.

It was like God reached down with the greatest gift one could ever hope to receive, salvation from Hell, (with my name on it) & presented it to me, with Jesus Christ being the proof of purchase..

And I, with all my heart, BELIEVE it.

THAT VERY SAME MOMENT I believed, I  couldn't help but announce it (even though I knew God already could see in my heart & knew) & I was instantly CHANGED.

I was reborn.

I really don't think a person even can be saved & NOT KNOW they are.

Wow friend, I appreciate your testimony and your response but have to say: Did you carefully read my post that you just quoted? If you did, you "should" see clearly what I was quoting from the Word. Jesus said that we cannot know the exact moment of regeneration, not me. Please take another look. In addition, I did not say your last line at all friend.

The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the sons of God. We are in agreement on that last line.  If one doesn't know they are saved, they are not. 

I was referencing the exact moment of regeneration. (check John 3: 6-8 I quoted)

 

[DaveW]

Hey Wretched - no comment on ANY OTHER ASPECT of the discussion, but the term "whence" has to do with position and place, not time.

And "whither" also has to do with location, not time.

It is not talking about the precise "Timing" of salvation at all.

 

But there has been a lot of discussion over the centuries as to the precise timing of salvation itself, and there has not been a really satisfactory answer to it.

I tend to look at:

Romans 10:9-10
(9)  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(10)  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 

The thing I like about this is that it states it both ways - confession first, then belief, BUT THEN it states belief first then confession.

What we can know for certain, is that one must have both confession and belief, and once these both are present, it is certain.

 

I do think it is a problem when people put their trust in the "moment " of their salvation - our trust should be in the promise of God, not in any event that we might look to.

I am thinking of the person who says "I know I am saved because I prayed a prayer on this date at that time". Personally I know I am saved because God has promised that if i confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in my heart that God hath raised him from the dead, I shall be saved.

And I have, I do, and I am. 

Exactly when doesn't matter -  because has promised it, and I have followed His words in this matter.

 

But all of this is way off topic now I guess......

[wretched]

50 minutes ago, DaveW said:

Hey Wretched - no comment on ANY OTHER ASPECT of the discussion, but the term "whence" has to do with position and place, not time.

And "whither" also has to do with location, not time.

It is not talking about the precise "Timing" of salvation at all.

 

But there has been a lot of discussion over the centuries as to the precise timing of salvation itself, and there has not been a really satisfactory answer to it.

I tend to look at:

Romans 10:9-10
(9)  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(10)  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 

The thing I like about this is that it states it both ways - confession first, then belief, BUT THEN it states belief first then confession.

What we can know for certain, is that one must have both confession and belief, and once these both are present, it is certain.

 

I do think it is a problem when people put their trust in the "moment " of their salvation - our trust should be in the promise of God, not in any event that we might look to.

I am thinking of the person who says "I know I am saved because I prayed a prayer on this date at that time". Personally I know I am saved because God has promised that if i confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in my heart that God hath raised him from the dead, I shall be saved.

And I have, I do, and I am. 

Exactly when doesn't matter -  because has promised it, and I have followed His words in this matter.

 

But all of this is way off topic now I guess......

No I get it Dave, confession with the mouth is calculable but i don't agree with the location reference. Not knowing where something came from or where it went after it happened is a more modern paraphrase and deals with time as well as location (like bat out of hell or speeding bullet or "came outta nowhere").  The passage cannot be referencing simply locations because that would make zero sense in the context. The Lord was revealing that belief in the heart is not calculable in John 3: 6-8 (only evidence of true belief is calculable). This ties in with other teaching of the Lord:

1Cor.3:7  So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

There goes the whole 123 repeat after me nonsense we see EVERYWHERE in these last days. The Lord is revealing that no one can see or claim or count the increase (not even the person believing at the time). The increase is only and always the Lords.

This is why so many times we see people who say they believe, go forward, even in some cases get baptized but then in a blink of an eye, they are gone. We sold them some religion in Jesus's name and nothing more or a better way to say it is, we picked green fruit and tried to proclaim it "saved".

I believe this is why so much emphasis, roughly 90% of the Gospels and Epistles discuss how a believer is to live demonstrating the transformation (fruit of the Spirit) that occurs. It is this renewing of the mind that makes us know we truly believed.

Anyway, that's my take.

[HappyChristian]

Ok, while this is an interesting discussion, it is not what the OP is about. Let's get back to discussion of Roloff (who, BTW, would come down squarely and correctly on the side of repentance is necessary for salvation and is most definitely NOT a work). 

I don't know where the icon for it went, but back to topic...

Anyway...

Roloff was well known in his heyday as a man who stood on biblical principle against unjust government intrusion. He was a no-holds-barred, no-apology Baptist preacher. He had a love for people that was pretty amazing. He reached a lot of young people through his ministries. But he had weird eating ideas. LOL (He was a health nut of sorts)

[swathdiver]

16 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

I don't know where the icon for it went, but back to topic...

Same for the "Like" button.  "Like" is not represented by the new icons.

[BaptistJonStewart]

Dr. Law and Dr. Grace: 'nuff said