The Rapture cannot take place at the end of the 7 year tribulation period

[Jordan Kurecki]

8 hours ago, Konstantin said:

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week” (Dan.9:27) “hee went foorth conquering, and to conquere”.(Rev.6:2)

 

 

He's not the Messiah. He is the one who copies the Messiah

 

 

That's what I said..

11 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

No.

Men who teach dispensationalism tell you I am wrong.

The supposed last week of Daniel 9 is nowhere called the 7 year tribulation.

And no, the time of Jacob's trouble is not either, as that is the time of Israels trouble during Nebuchadnezzars rule.

It's all in the past.

I would also like others to see another false statement by Genevan Preacher. He stated that Jacobs Trouble refers to Israel under Nebuchadnezzar. This is a false statement:

Jeremiah 30:7-9 KJV
[7] Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. [8] For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: [9] But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

When did God raise up David to be Israels King? No This period of time is not "past".

Edited September 5, 2016 by Jordan Kurecki

[Genevanpreacher]

59 minutes ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

That's what I said..

I would also like others to see another false statement by Genevan Preacher. He stated that Jacobs Trouble refers to Israel under Nebuchadnezzar. This is a false statement:

Jeremiah 30:7-9 KJV
[7] Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. [8] For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: [9] But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

When did God raise up David to be Israels King? No This period of time is not "past".

I agree that verse nine IS the future, but disagree that verses 7-8 are, as it is speaking about their captivity under Nebby, and their release from him.

No false statement, that's what I believe, and I'm just dividing the verses aright.

Twisted doctrine comes from dividing the verses to match a 'teaching'.

Now read Jeremiah 30:10 and see.

That one verse is conveniently left out when people want their verses to match their 'teaching'.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I agree that verse nine IS the future, but disagree that verses 7-8 are, as it is speaking about their captivity under Nebby, and their release from him.

No false statement, that's what I believe, and I'm just dividing the verses aright.

Twisted doctrine comes from dividing the verses to match a 'teaching'.

Now read Jeremiah 30:10 and see.

That one verse is conveniently left out when people want their verses to match their 'teaching'.

As for myself, I am not at all afraid to include Jeremiah 30:10 in the discussion.

Jeremiah 30:7-10 -- "Alas!  For that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: but they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.  Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."

1. Except that unto this very day strangers are still "serving themselves" of Israel, thousands of years after the Babylonian captivity ended.

2.  Except that "David their king" was not raised up unto Israel at the end of the Babylonian captivity.

3.  Except that unto this very day Israel is not yet in a condition of rest and quiet, wherein none are making Israel afraid.

Furthermore, the opening line of Jeremiah 30:7 -- "Alas!  For that day is great, so that none is like it." -- sound a great deal like what our Lord Jesus Christ prophesied in Matthew 24:21 & Mark 13:19, which He prophesied hundreds of years after the Babylonian captivity ended.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Genevanpreacher]

53 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

As for myself, I am not at all afraid to include Jeremiah 30:10 in the discussion.

Jeremiah 30:7-10 -- "Alas!  For that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: but they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.  Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."

1. Except that unto this very day strangers are still "serving themselves" of Israel, thousands of years after the Babylonian captivity ended.

2.  Except that "David their king" was not raised up unto Israel at the end of the Babylonian captivity.

3.  Except that unto this very day Israel is not yet in a condition of rest and quiet, wherein none are making Israel afraid.

Furthermore, the opening line of Jeremiah 30:7 -- "Alas!  For that day is great, so that none is like it." -- sound a great deal like what our Lord Jesus Christ prophesied in Matthew 24:21 & Mark 13:19, which He prophesied hundreds of years after the Babylonian captivity ended.

Good to see you aren't.

Answers to number -

1. Doesn't change a thing. It still was like that til the Lord took his vengence upon the surrounding nations after Ol' Nebby lost'em back to the land of Israel and destroyed a lot of nations that made fun of the nation of Israel. 

2. No, and he still has not, but will in the form of Jesus Christ the son of David, when he rules all eternity.

3. Doesn't change a thing either, as the time he was talking was after Israel returned home after God's judgement upon Ol' Nebby. Wherein the Lord destroyed Ol' Nebby with all the other nations for mocking his judgement upon his people Israel by letting Nebby take them into captivity.

4. (Since you didn't add one, I took the liberty.) Since when does a verse matter the slightest when it 'sounds' like another? If it ain't the same subject, as in your examples, it ain't. 

 

[Invicta]

Isn't.

 

[Genevanpreacher]

11 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Isn't.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

As for myself, I am not at all afraid to include Jeremiah 30:10 in the discussion.

Jeremiah 30:7-10 -- "Alas!  For that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: but they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.  Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."

1. Except that unto this very day strangers are still "serving themselves" of Israel, thousands of years after the Babylonian captivity ended.

2.  Except that "David their king" was not raised up unto Israel at the end of the Babylonian captivity.

3.  Except that unto this very day Israel is not yet in a condition of rest and quiet, wherein none are making Israel afraid.

Furthermore, the opening line of Jeremiah 30:7 -- "Alas!  For that day is great, so that none is like it." -- sound a great deal like what our Lord Jesus Christ prophesied in Matthew 24:21 & Mark 13:19, which He prophesied hundreds of years after the Babylonian captivity ended.

4 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Good to see you aren't.

Answers to number -

1. Doesn't change a thing. It still was like that til the Lord took his vengence upon the surrounding nations after Ol' Nebby lost'em back to the land of Israel and destroyed a lot of nations that made fun of the nation of Israel. 

2. No, and he still has not, but will in the form of Jesus Christ the son of David, when he rules all eternity.

3. Doesn't change a thing either, as the time he was talking was after Israel returned home after God's judgement upon Ol' Nebby. Wherein the Lord destroyed Ol' Nebby with all the other nations for mocking his judgement upon his people Israel by letting Nebby take them into captivity.

4. (Since you didn't add one, I took the liberty.) Since when does a verse matter the slightest when it 'sounds' like another? If it ain't the same subject, as in your examples, it ain't. 

 

1.  Jeremiah 30:8 clearly includes within its Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance the truth that "strangers shall NO MORE serve themselves of him [of Israel]."  If strangers are indeed still "serving themselves" of Israel unto this very day, then that Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance has not yet been precisely fulfilled.  So then, did the Holy Spirit just get it wrong?  Or, do Holy Spirit inspired prophesies not require precise fulfillment?  Or, is the prophecy still awaiting a future, precise fulfillment? 

2.  Jeremiah 30:8-9 is all one grammatical sentence; therefore, if any part of it has not yet been fulfilled, then the whole of the prophecy still requires a future, precise fulfillment.

3.  Jeremiah 30:10 clearly includes within its Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance the truth that Israel "shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."  If Israel is indeed still not at rest and quiet and are still being made afraid by various nations around them, then that Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance has not yet been precisely fulfilled.  So then, did the Holy Spirit just get it wrong again?  Or, do Holy Spirit inspired prophesies not require precise fulfillment?  Or, is the prophecy still awaiting a future, precise fulfillment?

4.  Jeremiah 30:7 describes "the time of Jacob's trouble" as a day that is so great that no other is like unto its greatness of trouble.  In Matthew 24:21 our Lord Jesus Christ prophecies of so great a tribulation that there was never one like it "since the beginning of the world," nor would there ever be a future one like it.  In Mark 13:19 (which is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:21) our Lord Jesus prophecies of days of so great affliction that there were never ones like it "from the beginning of the creation," nor would there ever be future ones like it.  Now, by definition it is impossible for there to more than one time-period of the greatest trouble, tribulation, affliction that has ever existed in the world's existence.  Thus either Jeremiah 30:7 and our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:21 & Mark 13:19 were speaking of the same greatest time-period of trouble, tribulation, affliction; or else Jeremiah 30:7 or our Lord Jesus Christ made a mistake.

By the way, to claim that it does not matter if a Biblical prophecy is not fulfilled precisely is simply to deny the precise truthfulness of a Holy Spirit inspired prophecy.  As for myself, I declare -- GOD FORBID!

[Genevanpreacher]

39 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  Jeremiah 30:8 clearly includes within its Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance the truth that "strangers shall NO MORE serve themselves of him [of Israel]."  If strangers are indeed still "serving themselves" of Israel unto this very day, then that Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance has not yet been precisely fulfilled.  So then, did the Holy Spirit just get it wrong?  Or, do Holy Spirit inspired prophesies not require precise fulfillment?  Or, is the prophecy still awaiting a future, precise fulfillment? 

2.  Jeremiah 30:8-9 is all one grammatical sentence; therefore, if any part of it has not yet been fulfilled, then the whole of the prophecy still requires a future, precise fulfillment.

3.  Jeremiah 30:10 clearly includes within its Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance the truth that Israel "shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."  If Israel is indeed still not at rest and quiet and are still being made afraid by various nations around them, then that Holy Spirit inspired prophetic utterance has not yet been precisely fulfilled.  So then, did the Holy Spirit just get it wrong again?  Or, do Holy Spirit inspired prophesies not require precise fulfillment?  Or, is the prophecy still awaiting a future, precise fulfillment?

4.  Jeremiah 30:7 describes "the time of Jacob's trouble" as a day that is so great that no other is like unto its greatness of trouble.  In Matthew 24:21 our Lord Jesus Christ prophecies of so great a tribulation that there was never one like it "since the beginning of the world," nor would there ever be a future one like it.  In Mark 13:19 (which is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:21) our Lord Jesus prophecies of days of so great affliction that there were never ones like it "from the beginning of the creation," nor would there ever be future ones like it.  Now, by definition it is impossible for there to more than one time-period of the greatest trouble, tribulation, affliction that has ever existed in the world's existence.  Thus either Jeremiah 30:7 and our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:21 & Mark 13:19 were speaking of the same greatest time-period of trouble, tribulation, affliction; or else Jeremiah 30:7 or our Lord Jesus Christ made a mistake.

By the way, to claim that it does not matter if a Biblical prophecy is not fulfilled precisely is simply to deny the precise truthfulness of a Holy Spirit inspired prophecy.  As for myself, I declare -- GOD FORBID!

1. The scripture does not say 'for ever'. So it was for a time that was not specified because it was for that particular time and generation to see for themselves.

2. Your answer is not what the scriptures say, and it is possible to have present occurrences mentioned with future occurrences. Your debate over Daniel 9 with Ian shows you believe that.

3. Once again - it does not give a specific time for this event to last. So it must be for that generation to see for themselves. Remember how the scriptures say to prove whether a prophet was a true prophet?

4. I am sorry, but they are two different events. The one in the NT is ibviously the worst one.

5. I have no idea why you said your last paragraph. Nobody has stated such.

[Jordan Kurecki]

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

1. The scripture does not say 'for ever'. So it was for a time that was not specified because it was for that particular time and generation to see for themselves.

2. Your answer is not what the scriptures say, and it is possible to have present occurrences mentioned with future occurrences. Your debate over Daniel 9 with Ian shows you believe that.

3. Once again - it does not give a specific time for this event to last. So it must be for that generation to see for themselves. Remember how the scriptures say to prove whether a prophet was a true prophet?

4. I am sorry, but they are two different events. The one in the NT is ibviously the worst one.

5. I have no idea why you said your last paragraph. Nobody has stated such.

It's pretty interesting to me how you are completely blind to the connection between God raising David to be their ruler and the other events surrounding that. It's all connected, but your anti Dispensational bias is hindering you from seeing it. 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

1. The scripture does not say 'for ever'. So it was for a time that was not specified because it was for that particular time and generation to see for themselves.

The Scripture DOES say "NO MORE," which by definition means "not any more at all into the future."

Edited September 6, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Jordan Kurecki]

35 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

The Scripture DOES say "NO MORE," which by definition means "not any more at all into the future."

From what I have observed Genevan Preacher isn't really big on grammar or literal definitions of words.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Jordan Kurecki

[Genevanpreacher]

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

Why do people assume that some things in the OT, about Israel as a nation of people, are still future from now? If a prophet spoke something, back then, why push it even past us?

In Jeremiah 31 there is plenty to show he was speaking to their own 'close' future, not ours.

Look for the answer to a prophecy 'for them' during their future. Not ours.

[John Young]

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

Why do people assume that some things in the OT, about Israel as a nation of people, are still future from now? If a prophet spoke something, back then, why push it even past us?

In Jeremiah 31 there is plenty to show he was speaking to their own 'close' future, not ours.

Look for the answer to a prophecy 'for them' during their future. Not ours. 

Lots of things the people of the past saw did not come to pass in their lifetime or near future, yet they testified of them anyway. Some things rightfully applied to current, future, and far distant future events simultaneously. For example, Enoch prophesying of the coming of Christ in judgement had a partial application to the people before the flood, then again spoken of by Moses had application to the giving of the law, however, it's completed fulfillment is in the future event of Christ coming physically to earth.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Acts 8:32-35 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 in his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Jude 14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Revelation 19:11-15 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Zechariah 14:4-5 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Job 19:25-27 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Edited September 6, 2016 by John Young

[Konstantin]

3 hours ago, John Young said:

Lots of things the people of the past saw did not come to pass in their lifetime or near future, yet they testified of them anyway. Some things rightfully applied to current, future, and far distant future events simultaneously. For example, Enoch prophesying of the coming of Christ in judgement had a partial application to the people before the flood, then again spoken of by Moses had application to the giving of the law, however, it's completed fulfillment is in the future event of Christ coming physically to earth.

The ceremonial law is not enforced until the end of Millennial Kingdom, “till all be fulfilled”(Mat.5:18)

[Pastor Scott Markle]

19 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

2. Your answer is not what the scriptures say, and it is possible to have present occurrences mentioned with future occurrences. Your debate over Daniel 9 with Ian shows you believe that.

Except that the singular sentence of Jeremiah 30:8-9 begins with the statement, "For it shall come to pass in that day."  As such, this statement grammatically encompasses the entirety of this singular sentence; and as such, all of the events that are prophesied in this singular sentence must all occur "in that day," that is -- in the same singular time-period.  Yet even you acknowledge that the prophetic elements of Jeremiah 30:9 have not been fulfilled even unto this very day.

Even so, if the prophetic elements of Jeremiah 30:8 were fulfilled "in that day," the prophetic elements of Jeremiah 30:9 were not fulfilled "in that day," then the prophecy of Jeremiah 30:8-9 was not fulfilled precisely as given.  If indeed the prophecy of Jeremiah 30:8-9 was not fulfilled precisely as given, then according to the truth of Deuteronomy 18:22 (which is the very verse that you quoted above), the Jeremiah 30:8-9 is a falsehood and not from the Lord.