Debtors to the Jews.

[Alan]

I hope I didn't take this thread off the topic, but it bothers me, as a born again Jew, that many Gentiles call themselves "spiritual" Jews and the Church, "spiritual" Israel when no such terms exist in Scriptures.  I believe that the blessings and curses of the Abrahamic Covenant still apply today.

Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

LindaR,

I do not think you bringing Genesis 12:1-3 to our attention is off topic. I think it is appropriate and fits into the general discussion on the spiritual blessings to the Gentiles coming from the Jewish lineage: specificly, the Patriarchs, as talked about previously. The blessing and curse, in the Abrahamic Covenant, is still in force today.

As the subject matter under discussion is the spiritual blessings arising from the Patriarchs, and the land of Israel, I think it would behoove all of us to read Psalm 122. I will bring out one verse that specifically tells us the spiritual blessing of the nation of Israel that Paul is relating to us.

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee." Psalm 122:6

The Gentiles, the saints in the Church Age, are all spiritually prospeous because of the Hebrews.

Shalom.

Alan

[John81]

Christ the Saviour came through the Jews, for that we are indebted and should share Christ with lost Jews so they can know Christ too.

[Alan]

Christ the Saviour came through the Jews, for that we are indebted and should share Christ with lost Jews so they can know Christ too.

Amen!

"And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him. Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be by servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my slavation unto the end of the earth."

One day, soon I hope, God will gather, and restore, the preserved of Israel, His elect. God as we speak, is using the seed of Jacob, the Lord Jesus, to be a light of salvation to the Gentiles. All of us Gentiles are debtors to the sons of Jacob for our eternal salvation through the Lord Jesus.

I am very thankful for the many churches that I have attended throughout the years that have an active ministry to seek the salvation of the Jewish race and to be a help with their material needs.

Alan 

[Ukulelemike]

Genevanpreacher,

You are mistaken and cannot disceen the scriptures as they are written nor can you rightly divide the scriptures in order to know the will of God in this matter.

Think about this for a moment. Did the poor saints in Jerusalem provide the Gentiles with spiritual things. Of course not! As Paul brought out previously in Romans 9: 4 and 5 all of the spiritual blessings of every saved saint in the church age has been blessed spirutally from the nation of Israel.

 

 

Wait a minute, now. DID the poor saints in Jerusalem provide the Gentiles with spiritual things? Do you know WHO the 'poor saints in Jerusalem" were? The Apostles! The Apostles, and the remnants of the first church there in Jerusalem, those that had not been scattered with the persecution. So they ABSOLUTELY provided the Gentiles with spiritual things. The Apostles, save for Paul, remained in Jerusalem as spiritual leaders, of a sort, and guides for the new churches, as seen in Acts 15 when Paul and others went and sought of them direction concerning the judaizers. And considering Peter, who was there, was the one who opened the doors of salvation first to the Gentiles, they absolutely DID provide the gentiles with spiritual things.

[Alan]

Ukulelemike,

I understand, but do not totally agree with your reasoning.  In one sense of the word you have correct. But, bear in mind, Paul plainly referres to "the Gentiles," in comparison with the Jews, and not to the poor saints. Paul makes no reference in the book of Romans to bear out your line of reasoning. Furthermore, the accepted date of the writing of Romans is 60 AD. Acts 8:1 does state that the other apostles stayed in Jerusalem and did not initially scatter due to persecution. The accepted date for Acts 8:1 is 34 AD. It is hard to imagine that the other apostles stayed in Jerusalem during the intervening  26 years from Acts 8:1 to the writing of Romans. I do believe that the apostles left and departed to other countries long before Paul wrote Romans. Non-biblical writings bear witness to this.

In conclusion, the context of Romans 15:27 is clearly referencing to the nation of Israel as Paul wrote in Romans 3:1 and 2, the story of Abraham and David in Romans 4:1-25; and particulary Romans 9:4 and 5 as previously written in detail.

Alan

Edited October 13, 2015 by Alan
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[Ukulelemike]

I responded to your comment: "Did the poor saints in Jerusalem provide the Gentiles with spiritual things. Of course not". The saints in Jerusalem at that time were primarily the Apostles. So yes, they absolutely did provide the Gentiles with spiritual things, like the gospel and the opening of heaven to them through Peter. The Bible bears this out.

 

[Alan]

Thank you. I more understand your point and now more thourly agree with you.

[Alan]

Ukulelemike,

This question is off topic. We haven't heard you and your Ukulele for quite awhile. How about a song or two?

Alan

[Ukulelemike]

I will pull something together shortly. Thanks for asking.

[Salyan]

Genevanpreacher,

You are mistaken and cannot discern the scriptures as they are written nor can you rightly divide the scriptures in order to know the will of God in this matter.

Whoa on there a moment. I'm not taking either side, doctrinally, but that comment was ungracious and uncalled for. Not to mention completely unnecessary.

[Alan]

You are not rightly dividing this at all. The carnal things referenced by Paul is the "certain contribution" talked of in verse 26. The reason for giving the contribution is verse 27b.

 

Whoa on there a moment. I'm not taking either side, doctrinally, but that comment was ungracious and uncalled for. Not to mention completely unnecessary.

Salyan,

I understand what you are saying. I was responding to the post by Genevanpreacher given earlier in the same day. I thought it was called for and necessary.

In order to develop a better gracious spirit I will strike out that quote.

Alan

[Genevanpreacher]

A gracious spirit there Alan.

Miss me?

I'm baaack!

Edited October 16, 2015 by Genevanpreacher

[Alan]

Salyan,

If you feel it is time to lock this thread that is ok with me.

Alan

[Genevanpreacher]

I just get back on and you want to lock this thread?

Hmm. You're gonna hurt my feelings doing that my friend. 

Let's look at your OP...

"Debtors to the Jews"?

Yes we are indebted to the Jews. The Jews who rejected everything about God and his truth. The truth that leads to everlasting life. The life that God has always wanted for Jews, Gentiles, and Israelites, and anyone who will believe in the Lord with all their heart and gain a foreverness in eternity, time without an end, with the One who created all things? Jews, who rejected the Lord Jesus, as a people, not a nation, and crucified him in disobedience to the commands of God. Yes, he died for them, and sin, and for all of us. Yet God used them, through their sinful ways, to bring salvation to the rest of us through their own denial of God and the very words of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The indebtedness we owe is because they denied the holy one.

I do not rejoice in that for them. Their own weakness of the flesh is not something you should be rewarding them for, Alan.

God doesn't.

This is not in plain old opposition to or against you Alan. I am sincerely answering your OP.

I care for Jewish people, as well as anyone else, who are lost. It is a natural thing for a Christian. So please don't take this as a 'hate' issue, or a racial issue. Because it is not.

What should be a 'hate' issue, is supposed fellow Christians using rude phraseology to make another brother seem ignorant because our beliefs are not the same. Sometimes I might seem 'mean' to you in your posts. I am sorry I get in the flesh, along with my spirit, sometimes. It is a defense mode, from all the trash out there that I have been fighting against for years. Your denial of my 'knowledge' of the scriptures borders on edge, with me, as I am sure my denial of your knowledge does to you.

I think we could learn to accept the fact that we just don't 'jive' together.

I am at peace with that.

But iron does sharpen iron, does it not?

Edited October 16, 2015 by Genevanpreacher

[Alan]

Moderators,

I would like to make a personal request to any moderator to lock this thread.

Alan

Edited October 16, 2015 by Alan